Belfast meeting: Can Direct Action achieve change?
May 1 2009 19:46
Public meeting:
The Visteon workers have shown that we are far from powerless in resisting job and pay cuts. The discussion will focus on the Visteon/Ford workplace occupations, solidarity and the politics of direct action.
Speakers:
Dessie McEnroy- Visteon worker (personal capacity)
Davy Carlin (WSM)
When: 2pm, Saturday 9th May
Where: An Culturlann, 216 Falls Rd, West Belfast.
May 17 2009 18:23
#2
report and audio recording of this meeting
http://www.wsm.ie/news_viewer/5563
May 18 2009 12:08
#3
Given the divided nature of Belfast do you really think that that Irish Cultural centre is a great venue and that its location might not put a few people off?
May 18 2009 12:12
#4
Liam_Derry wrote:
Given the divided nature of Belfast do you really think that that Irish Cultural centre is a great venue and that its location might not put a few people off?
This point has been made many times and ignored. It's definitely a valid point though and using venues like this are problematic in terms of really reaching out to the wider working class, which can be hard enough as it is, with anarchism being as small current.
May 18 2009 15:27
#5
Liam_Derry wrote:
Given the divided nature of Belfast do you really think that that Irish Cultural centre is a great venue and that its location might not put a few people off?
If you know West Belfast, you will find that there few venues to hold a public meeting. The west was chosen because every other public meeting about the visteon occupation was held in the city centre. It was also chosen because we could get coverage from the local paper- The Andersonstown News and we distribute our news sheet in the nearby Beechmount area.
The visteon workers where more than happy to speak at any part of the city so it was not a problem.
May 18 2009 18:53
#6
I know west Belfast very well.
The point Liam was making, that I agreed with, was that this was a trait of certain sections of anarchism in Belfast to limit themselves basically to west belfast solely. It was a problem with certain fundraisers in the past and the unwillingness of some to move beyond a comfort zone coloured by one particular shade of the 'divide' here. This isn't something we picked from our arse, this was a debate had on this very forum about a group I was in too.
The fact that that the speaker was more than willing to speak there has no bearing on whether it's sensible for a certain section of anarchists in Belfast to have almost every public meeting in an irish language/cultural centre on the Falls road.
May 18 2009 19:37
#7
Choccy, again you are making an 'issue' out of nothing.
The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of public meetings by the Belfast branch are in the city centre. The previous two this year where in the city centre.
so we certainly dont "limit themselves basically to west belfast solely"
May 18 2009 19:41
#8
John09 wrote:
The truth of the matter is that the vast majority of public meetings by the Belfast branch are in the city centre.
This simply isn't true, yes the two earlier this year were in the city centre, but the majority have been in the Culturlann. I could probably trawl this very forum for the announcements themselves.
Quote:
so we certainly dont "limit themselves basically to west belfast solely"
This isn't an observation exclusive to me, or members of the group I'm in - most people on the periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast have shared the same reservations about your public meetings.
I don't know why you took 'picking a 'fight'' out of your post.
May 19 2009 07:52
#9
actually both of us are wrong.
Since the formation of the branch in 2007, their have been 6 public meetings including branch educational on the civil rights movement which was publically advertised on the wsm website.
Half of which have been in the city centre- the other half in the west.
May 19 2009 09:36
#10
Choccy, who are these people on "periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast"?
Apart from occasional rants by posters on libcom this certainly has not impinged on our ability to attract new members or interest.
We attract people to our public meetings in the city centre and West Belfast who are not involved in any anarchist groups. For example, the ashanti meeting in West Belfast attracted over 50 people, many of who were un-aligned to any political movement and who were on the 'periphery of anarchism in Belfast'.
May 19 2009 09:53
#11
Actually, on the ashanti meeting, one of the main reasons why it was held in the west because it is very difficult to find suitable and cheap meeting place in the city centre. Robinsons bar opposite the Europa was first on the list but was too expensive and un-avaliable.
It did not really matter anyway, as because of his high profile and press coverage people(outside of Organise) where keen to travel to any part of the city. Belfast is quite small too which helped.
May 19 2009 09:58
#12
On a personal note, do Belfast WSM honestly believe that rhetorical questions as meeting titles are the best way to go? (Ho ho, look how annoying that one is for example) I think they risk sounding disingenuous (cos obviously you're gonna conclude that yes, direct action does achieve change) and you'll get confused with Trots...especially given the contemporality of the issue.
To illustrate my point, the other week following the Tomlinson furore, the SWP - under the cunning disguise of this new Campaign Against Police Violence - on my campus held a meeting titled "Are the Police Out of Control?". How irksome is that question, on a scale of 1 to I'll kick your head in.
May 19 2009 11:08
#13
John09 wrote:
The west was chosen because every other public meeting about the visteon occupation was held in the city centre. It was also chosen because we could get coverage from the local paper- The Andersonstown News and we distribute our news sheet in the nearby Beechmount area.
Ah I understand now. So you have an active recruitment campaign in nationalist areas as opposed to others. Same tactic was tried by the SWP (then the SWM) in the eighties. Think they called it "Winning the leadership of the anti-imperialist movement". I am sure you have a better name for it though.
May 19 2009 12:18
#14
Liam_Derry wrote:
John09 wrote:
The west was chosen because every other public meeting about the visteon occupation was held in the city centre. It was also chosen because we could get coverage from the local paper- The Andersonstown News and we distribute our news sheet in the nearby Beechmount area.Ah I understand now. So you have an active recruitment campaign in nationalist areas as opposed to others.
I wouldnt necesarily say thats 100% intentional on their part, Liam, its more the fact that you can (entirely reasonably) form that perspective from the outside that should give them pause for thought.
May 19 2009 12:45
#15
It was sort of meant jokingly but it does give that impresssion.
Ah well at least now we have anarchist groups for both sectarian sides in the north. Orangise! for the huns and Workers Solidarity Movement for the fenians. Who said anarchism couldn't bridge the sectarian divide.
May 19 2009 12:49
#16
Here John09 are you a member of the Belfast Branch of the WSM? Its just I was chatting to Bobby last night and he claims not to know who you are...
'Unfortunatley' and contrary to popular belief Organise! only has a couple of huns in it, we are out numbered by a factor of ten by the other lot 
May 19 2009 13:00
#17
And rightly so Deezer as you huns are all a bunch of reactionary bigots. 
May 19 2009 13:50
#18
John09 wrote:
Choccy, who are these people on "periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast"?
People who youse will never reach out to because they aren't from west Belfast
Quote:
Apart from occasional rants by posters on libcom this certainly has not impinged on our ability to attract new members or interest.
This isn't' even a dig, but I'm not aware of youse having any 'new' members in the last 6 months or currently anyone in the group not from west belfast and not from a 'catholic' (in the loosest sense) background.
Quote:
We attract people to our public meetings in the city centre and West Belfast who are not involved in any anarchist groups. For example, the ashanti meeting in West Belfast attracted over 50 people, many of who were un-aligned to any political movement and who were on the 'periphery of anarchism in Belfast'.
Because someone goes to an anarchist meeting that does not make them 'on the periphery of anarchism'
Re-read my post, i said 'on the periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast' - these are people who explicitly identify as anarchists but have not yet joined any group, and they almost universally express distaste for Belfast WSM.
May 19 2009 13:59
#19
notch8 wrote:
Liam_Derry wrote:
Ah I understand now. So you have an active recruitment campaign in nationalist areas as opposed to others.I wouldnt necesarily say thats 100% intentional on their part, Liam, its more the fact that you can (entirely reasonably) form that perspective from the outside that should give them pause for thought.
True, I'd say it's more because I doubt Bobby actually knows ANY protestants except for the huns in Organise.
But yeah while outsiders continue to perceive Belfast WSM as a 'west Belfast' group, they'll always come up against this.
May 19 2009 15:05
#20
Am I an outsider? Excellent I always wanted to be one of those.
"I'm an outsider! Outside of everything!"
May 19 2009 15:09
#21
Choccy wrote:
John09 wrote:
Choccy, who are these people on "periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast"?People who youse will never reach out to because they aren't from west Belfast
Quote:
Apart from occasional rants by posters on libcom this certainly has not impinged on our ability to attract new members or interest.This isn't' even a dig, but I'm not aware of youse having any 'new' members in the last 6 months or currently anyone in the group not from west belfast and not from a 'catholic' (in the loosest sense) background.
Quote:
We attract people to our public meetings in the city centre and West Belfast who are not involved in any anarchist groups. For example, the ashanti meeting in West Belfast attracted over 50 people, many of who were un-aligned to any political movement and who were on the 'periphery of anarchism in Belfast'.Because someone goes to an anarchist meeting that does not make them 'on the periphery of anarchism'
Re-read my post, i said 'on the periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast' - these are people who explicitly identify as anarchists but have not yet joined any group, and they almost universally express distaste for Belfast WSM.
This is only a perception fostered and encouraged by Organise for sectarian and practical reasons, from the very beginning, of the formation of the belfast branch. The problem is both groups are wrongly labelled as one or the other. Orangise being considered more 'unionist' and WSM more 'republican'. Unfortunately, this does not help when you have posters on libcom and offline who continue to harbour these illusions.
Please get your facts right Choccy before spouting rubbish, the majority of members of the Belfast branch are not from or live in West Belfast. You would be quite suprised these days.
May 19 2009 15:50
#22
.
May 19 2009 15:29
#23
Liam, this has been going on for along time. The problem with online forums such as this is that except for regular users, observers will not distinguish the difference between humour and reality. Except for your attempt to add a bit of flavour, Organise jibs have nothing to do with humour.
Why do Organise members find it acceptable to continuously have a go at the belfast branch and mention peoples 'alleged' backround on this forum? Im sure Belfast members could have a field day mentioning the backrounds of certain Orangise members
May 19 2009 15:45
#24
John09 wrote:
Choccy wrote:
Because someone goes to an anarchist meeting that does not make them 'on the periphery of anarchism'
Re-read my post, i said 'on the periphery of anarchist groups in Belfast' - these are people who explicitly identify as anarchists but have not yet joined any group, and they almost universally express distaste for Belfast WSM.This is only a perception fostered and encouraged by Organise for sectarian and practical reasons, from the very beginning, of the formation of the belfast branch. The problem is both groups are wrongly labelled as one or the other. Orangise being considered more 'unionist' and WSM more 'republican'. Unfortunately, this does not help when you have posters on libcom and offline who continue to harbour these illusions.
Complete bollocks mate, speak to ANY non-affiliated anarchists in Belfast (I doubt you know any).
Quote:
Please get your facts right Choccy before spouting rubbish, the majority of members of the Belfast branch are not from or live in West Belfast. You would be quite suprised these days.
Eh yes they are though I'm aware two moved out of west Belfast in the last year. Actually this post is bizarre given the most active member of the Belfast WSM claims to not even know who you are.
Seriously, the fact that you don't think the make-up of the Belfast WSM is in the least but problematic speaks volumes. Honestly, the criticisms Liam raised are shared by almost every non-affiliated anarchist I know in Belfast, many of whom march with Organise at public rallies, like MayDay, and wouldn't be seen dead at a WSM event.
As for the sectarian 'perception' of Organise and the WSM, the only people who accuse Organise of being 'loyalist' are people with a hard-on for republicanism, and which if you look at ANY of our literature is manifestly bollocks - also the fact that most of our group are fenians should lay rest to that nonsense
Whereas the accusation of WSM being soft on republicanism etc etc are from well, lost of people, including many on this board alone, who have sweet fuck all to do with Organise!
May 19 2009 15:43
#25
John09 wrote:
Why do Organise members find it acceptable to continuously have a go at the belfast branch and mention peoples 'alleged' backround on this forum? Im sure Belfast members could have a field day mentioning the backrounds of certain Orangise members
No-one is having a go at backgrounds, so don't be a complete fucking wanker, and don't joke-threaten people about disclosure of backgrounds, that is lame as fuck.
Peopel are criticising the apparent 'recruitment' policy of the WSM.
Again, and I'll stress this, most non-affiliated anarchists in Belfast perceive this quite readily without any prompting from us.
May 19 2009 15:57
#26
John09 wrote:
Im sure Belfast members could have a field day mentioning the backrounds of certain Orangise members
Well it is obvious what your background is! You're an asshole. Grow up you twat.
May 19 2009 16:27
#27
Choccy, the last time I checked there are not many 'non-affiliated anarchists' in Belfast.
Also, you have been proved wrong on belfast wsm membership and your earlier post that
"certain sections of anarchism in Belfast to limit themselves basically to west belfast solely" SOLELY??
As I have already mentioned this is obviously complete madness not based on fact given half of public meetings have been in the city centre and the other half in the west. BTW, branch meetings are also held in the city centre to accomodate all members.
The first one and perhaps the most important was held in the city centre. Actually the city centre was the preferred option for most of them, but was difficult due to venue and cost.
Choccy and whoever else, Is there anything you dont understand based on these facts?
May 19 2009 16:30
#28
Liam_Derry wrote:
Am I an outsider?
Outside of Belfast, I meant.
May 19 2009 17:13
#29
John09 wrote:
Choccy, the last time I checked there are not many 'non-affiliated anarchists' in Belfast.
that's what happens if you only look in west Belfast
There are lots of non-affiliated anarchists in Belfast. Again, since youse have apparently backed yourselves into west Belfast it's unlikely you'll ever meet them. Many were at MayDay marching with Organise and 10 of them are in the Queens Anarchist group, so not affiliated to Organise or WSM.
Quote:
Also, you have been proved wrong on belfast wsm membership and your earlier post that"certain sections of anarchism in Belfast to limit themselves basically to west belfast solely" SOLELY??
ah it's somewhat flippant, intersting you focussed on this and not the substantive criticisms of people like Liam who isn't in Organise
Quote:
As I have already mentioned this is obviously complete madness not based on fact given half of public meetings have been in the city centre and the other half in the west. BTW, branch meetings are also held in the city centre to accomodate all members.
The first one and perhaps the most important was held in the city centre. Actually the city centre was the preferred option for most of them, but was difficult due to venue and cost.
Choccy and whoever else, Is there anything you dont understand based on these facts?
ewww drop the entire paragraph in bold thing, it makes you look special
May 19 2009 17:26
#30
wsm_code of conduct wrote:
Members of the WSM are, whether they like it or not, anarchist role-models. The impression that WSM members make on external groups and individuals in their personal dealings with them is the most important factor that defines our collective reputation and the reputation of anarchism among the Irish working class. As an organisation which strives to persuade the working class of our ideas, our reputation as a serious and trustworthy organisation is crucial.Therefore, WSM members should strive to act in a manner which maintains the reputation of the organisation and avoid behaving in ways that are likely to bring anarchism into public disrepute. When representing the WSM, members should behave in a manner appropriate with the representative of a dignified and serious organisation.
Some examples of behaviours that WSM members should avoid to help maintain the organisation’s good name.
• Harassing or intimidating members of the public.
• Reckless endangerment of members of the public.
• Derogatory exchanges with members of rival organisations in public fora.
• The use of denunciation as a regular approach to debate.
wsm_relations with other left groups wrote:
When discussing other groups with non-members either formally or informally we should avoid name calling or personal attacks. Criticisms should not be based on crude charactures of their positions or history. This may currently be standard practise on the left but for anarchists it should be unacceptable.Although disagreeing on fundamental anarchist strategy we share many points in common with Organise on a day to day basis. It is in the interests of both groups that anarchism grows in Ireland even if some of this growth happens outside either organisation. We should therefore ensure regular formal contact between ourselves and Organise! and encourage contacts to become involved in whichever organisation they are politically closest to. Such an approach is not dependant on a reciprocal approach from Organise! but arises from our recognition of the need for an anarchist/libertarian movement.
The rules, the rules, youre breaking teh rulez!
Is this not a bit of a gamble given the Belfast vote isn't ill Sunday and there's a proposed International Day of Action May 9 which is dependent on Sunday's vote?