There has been a spate of muggings in demonstrations by opportunistic elements, mainly from the banlieus (supposedly). This reached a height about 10 days ago, and since then unions and students have organised stewarding and defense groups to protect against it. The lack of reports to the contrary would suggest that events like these are now few and very far between (unless a comrade in France can suggest otherwise?).
French student demonstrators being beaten...by other youth??
Jack wrote:
revol68 wrote:
well i'd imagine the geeky looking one isn't celebrating a goal.He's celebrating getting his entire fist up his butt.
cunt! I just got stared at by half the office for laughing out loud there, and my project manager sits right behind me .
I think that the urban youth are tired of wannabe bureacrats whining for more job security. I can agree with them from a different perspective. I have not seen much more than a conservative rebellion. Now the urban youth are proactively capitalist, they want jobs in the first place.
I really really have not heard of any revolutionary elements......
oh I'm glad you are taking the same rhetoric as sarkozy as well, calling them thugs etc. notice this is the intersection of racial and class resistance, in a very reactionary form
RevolutionReversal wrote:
I think that the urban youth are tired of wannabe bureacrats whining for more job security.
What?
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I can agree with them from a different perspective.
What with the muggers?
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I have not seen much more than a conservative rebellion.
The anti-CPE one? How is it "conservative"?
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Now the urban youth are proactively capitalist, they want jobs in the first place.
What does that mean?
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I really really have not heard of any revolutionary elements......
And what does that mean? Of people in France?
You realise that the muggers were a couple of hundred scumbags, and that millions of people have demonstrated, including tens of thousands of suburburn (not urban - this is France not the US/Canada) youth - some of whom also got mugged by those scumbags.
I know there are 3 elements, students anti-cpe, students pro-cpe or pro wanting school with right wing support, and yes I misused my term suburban youth the thugs.
remember the riots at the end of the year and the demands of the suburban youth, they wanted jobs. Now the students are out there denying the first measure claimed to do something.
So some members of the suburban youth are obviously going to be pissed that the students rebelling are hurtign them, others are going to join the fight. Now there is major racial tension inside this class conflict. Notice the person getting beat down is white, and the "thugs" are black or arabic. That underlies part of the tension, the solution to solve the problems of minorities in france took to much away from the wannabe bourgois.
now when I said proactively capitalist I meant the suburban youth just wanted to fit into the economy, they have bourgois dreams as well.
As I stated before this isn't revolutionary at all, its all reactionary, trying to maintain a fucked up system from becoming worse, its agaisnt one law, not the concepts of legislation. no one has pledged to keep fighting afterwards. no one has tried to take the government down.
Its a liberal protest with major conservative elements, its part liberla class and racial conflict. No one has even critiqued work. Or industry.
)RevolutionReversal wrote:
Notice the person getting beat down is white, and the "thugs" are black or arabic. That underlies part of the tension, the solution to solve the problems of minorities in france took to much away from the wannabe bourgois.
You cant seriously by trying to make a generalised political point on the basis of 1 photo which you know nothing about! 
I think you need to further understand the class situation in France and do away with any crap about racial tension - that imo is over-inflated by the media. I think the colour of people's skin has very little to do with anything happening in those photos or around this whole situation.
RevolutionReversal wrote:
remember the riots at the end of the year and the demands of the suburban youth, they wanted jobs. Now the students are out there denying the first measure claimed to do something.
No they're not, they're stopping all jobs becoming casual and shit like the Anglo model. 80% of all young people oppose this law - including the vast mojority in the banlieue.
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So some members of the suburban youth are obviously going to be pissed that the students rebelling are hurtign them, others are going to join the fight.
Er, no the vast majority are joining them in the streets. A couple of hundred are anti-social violent dickheads.
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Now there is major racial tension inside this class conflict.
Says who?
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Notice the person getting beat down is white, and the "thugs" are black or arabic.
There are a few people there, you can't even tell the race of all of them. The majority of black crime is against black victims. Some whites were involved in mugging, and the victims weren't all white either.
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That underlies part of the tension, the solution to solve the problems of minorities in france took to much away from the wannabe bourgois.
?
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now when I said proactively capitalist I meant the suburban youth just wanted to fit into the economy, they have bourgois dreams as well.
Define "capitalist" and "bourgeios", then provide any evidence for this statement, thanks.
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As I stated before this isn't revolutionary at all, its all reactionary, trying to maintain a fucked up system from becoming worse, its agaisnt one law, not the concepts of legislation. no one has pledged to keep fighting afterwards. no one has tried to take the government down.
You seem to have pretty much zero understanding of any of the issues related, to be frank. Are you a punk, out of interest?
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Its a liberal protest with major conservative elements, its part liberla class and racial conflict. No one has even critiqued work. Or industry.
What the hell are you talking about? And what's the racial conflict you've invented?
Can you give me an example of any protest which is "revolutionary" not "reactionary" then?
info on miners strike for the non-uk peeps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners'_strike_(1984-1985)
(I cant believe we dont have a history article on it 
)
I cannot comment on something I know absolutely nothing about. Nor make a guess. My point is for something to be revolutionary it has to build beyond the moment, It has to plan for the future, the indigenous people here have the 7 generation rule, how will this affect our community that far in the future.
The students are thing about themselves and asking for things to stay the same. Now I am also being self critical, I am involved in tenants and disabled people's union here. We try and get social assistance raise for peopel who need it through direct action, however in the process we try to radicalize people.
My critique of france is that the kids are fighting for oen thing and then for another 5 years they are gunna sit around in a cafe secure in knowing they will have a job and thats it. If I'm wrong I'm glad to be wrong.
As for industry, my position on that is I fucking hate it, and the only reason i don't advocate the complete destruction of it right now is because the workers don;t have the ability to survive without it, they need the subsistance. though maybe it all disappearing would cause the revolt, again I don;t know.
My one big beef with unions now Is they do not strike for international causes, there is a large lack of internationalism in any radical movement, thats another key to revolutionary politics, this revolt is france specific, has anyone challanged the state beyond "no don't do that, we like you better before"
and thats where the urban youth come in, i think they are closer to the people I support, even though the are punks thugs chavs and gangsters.
RevolutionReversal wrote:
and thats where the urban youth come in, i think they are closer to the people I support, even though the are punks thugs chavs and gangsters.
Which urban youth?
You've already shown your complete ignorance of what's going on by claiming that they're in favour of this law, that they're all black and arabic, and that they're all muggers. When in fact this is about 300 of them, with the rest on the side of the students and workers.
And that you support these tossers says a lot about you 
And "chavs"? What the hell are you talking about??
John. wrote:
RevolutionReversal wrote:
and thats where the urban youth come in, i think they are closer to the people I support, even though the are punks thugs chavs and gangsters.Which urban youth?
You've already shown your complete ignorance of what's going on by claiming that they're in favour of this law, that they're all black and arabic, and that they're all muggers. When in fact this is about 300 of them, with the rest on the side of the students and workers.
And that you support these tossers says a lot about you
And "chavs"? What the hell are you talking about??
Okay, I never ever said all suburban youth were against the students, I said some were. Moreover, I never stated I support that minority.
I said I was closer to support a group of people who are asking for first time inclusion rather than the status quo.
John. wrote:
And that you support these tossers says a lot about you
When I read this I am reminded of Marx saying how anarchism is a petty bourgoisie ideology and how much you just proved him right. So when you are faced with mobs and people like that you shrug them off as "thugs". I am not saying that I agree with these people in their beatings of students but simply labeling a group of individuals and filing them away is the wrong thing to do, you're acting no more or less than a capitalist when you do this. You forget that the lumpenproletariat is where the revolution starts and if middle-class, privileged "anarchists" who like to throw molotovs around don't confront the issues of the less fortunate then they are useless.
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The students are thing about themselves and asking for things to stay the same
i don't think the most important point is what the effect of this struggle will be in terms of legislation etc., it will be in the strength of the french w/c, how the protests effect its composition, solidarity and militancy etc. So a victory here might not suddenly defeat capitalism, but it will probably leave the various sectors of the french w/c in a stronger position than before, and will act as an inspiration for future struggles.
No-one claims that we are in some sort of revolutionary moment, but that does not make this worthless. On the contrary, it shows that the possibility of a revitalisation in class struggle is possible.
dara wrote:
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The students are thing about themselves and asking for things to stay the samei don't think the most important point is what the effect of this struggle will be in terms of legislation etc., it will be in the strength of the french w/c, how the protests effect its composition, solidarity and militancy etc. So a victory here might not suddenly defeat capitalism, but it will probably leave the various sectors of the french w/c in a stronger position than before, and will act as an inspiration for future struggles.
No-one claims that we are in some sort of revolutionary moment, but that does not make this worthless. On the contrary, it shows that the possibility of a revitalisation in class struggle is possible.
I completely agree with you.
RevolutionReversal wrote:
I said I was closer to support a group of people who are asking for first time inclusion rather than the status quo.
Which "group of people" is that then?
Please provide links/documents/websites anything about these suburban kids who support this law. Thanks.
neoclassic:
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When I read this I am reminded of Marx saying how anarchism is a petty bourgoisie ideology and how much you just proved him right. So when you are faced with mobs and people like that you shrug them off as "thugs".
That's what they are, yup.
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I am not saying that I agree with these people in their beatings of students but simply labeling a group of individuals and filing them away is the wrong thing to do, you're acting no more or less than a capitalist when you do this.
Acting like a capitalist mean extracting surplus value from proletarians. I couldn't do that if I wanted to. Please use insults that make sense, thanks.
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You forget that the lumpenproletariat is where the revolution starts
What amongst a tiny number of anti-social dickheads who have attacked, beaten and robbed other kids from the suburbs who were there to fight the law and the cops (i.e. other lumpens, who aren't arseholes)?
And which "revolutions" have ever been started by "lumpen"?
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and if middle-class, privileged "anarchists" who like to throw molotovs around don't confront the issues of the less fortunate then they are useless.
What the hell are you talking about?
neoclassic wrote:
John. wrote:
And that you support these tossers says a lot about you
When I read this I am reminded of Marx saying how anarchism is a petty bourgoisie ideology and how much you just proved him right. So when you are faced with mobs and people like that you shrug them off as "thugs". I am not saying that I agree with these people in their beatings of students but simply labeling a group of individuals and filing them away is the wrong thing to do, you're acting no more or less than a capitalist when you do this. You forget that the lumpenproletariat is where the revolution starts and if middle-class, privileged "anarchists" who like to throw molotovs around don't confront the issues of the less fortunate then they are useless.
he was challenging the actions of a few of the banliuesards, not writing them all off as thugs.
....not sure how that's appropriating surplus labour time by the way.
dara wrote:
it will be in the strength of the french w/c, how the protests effect its composition, solidarity and militancy etc. So a victory here might not suddenly defeat capitalism, but it will probably leave the various sectors of the french w/c in a stronger position than before, and will act as an inspiration for future struggles.
I agree. While these demonstrations are in no way revolutionary, they do radicalize people in the long run so.
Resistance is Fertile
Are the students being beaten up by other youth? Or are these youth hired thugs? Or are these youth actually beating undercover cops? Does anyone know what's happening?
Thanks.