Yes, all of them
0% (0 votes)
No, not all of them
100% (7 votes)
Total votes: 7
Log in for more features
Click here to register now. Logged in users:
Can comment on articles and discussions
Get 'recent posts' refreshed more regularly
Bookmark articles to your own reading list
Use the site private messaging system
Start forum discussions, submit articles, and more...
Comments
John note: split from Save Ryton! thread about whether we should all be devoting all of our energies to saving the Ryton plant. I've added a poll
I know you're very enthusiastic, but seriously why is this more important than anything else?
Well, so is a lot of things, WTY. I asked why this was the most important thing that all of us should devote all our energies to? Cos not wanting to have a go that's what every nutter who goes to palestine/africa/wherever says.
Because if we are serious about creating a society based on solidarity then this is as good opportunity to act on what we talk about so much. And if we cant organise simple solidarity demo's for over 2300 workers then what good is all the talk we see on here?
Why should we be questioning this? Why should we not put alot of energy and effort into this?
There are a billion things we can "act on". And a billion things that we can't hope to do anything about
what good would a solidarity demo do?
Er, cos some of us do other stuff too, and we can't all just drop everything cos someone says one thing is more important than everything else! try to think that other people have lives and stuff going on as well
There's redundancies happening at my job (and lots of non-replacement of people when they leave, although it's not affecting my department directly yet) - I'm not even sure how best to organise against that at the moment...
my temp place where I'm going permanent there's massive restructuring... some people are getting really fucked over. Looks like it's too late to do anything about it though...
We can do something about this.
They have asked for people to target peugeot in solidarity, what good will it do? it will raise awareness and attempt to put pressure on other workers to act aswell as to show that peugeot cannot do this without a fight.
Ive never said its the most important thing going on, at the end of the day how much of your precious time is going to be taken up by going down to a peugeot or citoen dealership for a couple of hours?
Try talking to other workers in other departments and see what they want to do about it?
Nice defeatist attitude you have.
Firstly, you did say it was the most important thing, that we should all devote "all our energies" to, which is bollocks cos we all have stuff going on in our lives.
I'm not going to go down to a peugeot dealership for a couple of hours. I could also go down to a US embassy to protest against the iraq war, the israeli embassy for palestine, the mexican one for the miners... I'm not giong to do that either. You have to lose this mindset of thinking everyone has to go along with what you decide is the next big activist thing WTY. It's patronising and insulting.
Please don't patronise me about my workplace of all things. Firstly, I'm a temp. Secondly, this organisation has thousands of people in it, the restructuring has costs millions of pounds and has been going on for years and is now in its final stages, most people have already been redeployed. It's not "defeatest" to pick your battles sensibly. For example I can't do anything about that, but me and some colleagues are trying to get part-time workers who don't do Mondays TOIL for bank holidays they don't get off. A very unfair situation, and one we could rectify.
I said that we should be throwing all of our energy into building solidarity between different sections of the working class.
Let me swap my activist mindset for an armchair anarchist mindset then? Im not saying everyone has to go along, but i would expect those who claim to be class struggle anarchists to agree that showing solidarity is of great importance. And how is the defence of the working class the next big activist thing?? Im sure its the role of anarchist militants to engage in action for the benefit of our class, and to link sections of workers together.
No, you were clearly talking about Ryton, as you can see frmo your own quote:
Is that what you're saying I am? In which case sorry but you can fuck off. Or you could swap your mindset of "everyone has to devote all their energies to my latest pet project" to one of "everyone should apply their anarchist ideas to their own lives and situations as they see fit, and I can share my experiences and knowledge with them".
Yeah of course, but right now wy is "showing solidarity" with ryton any more important than "showing solidarity" with anyone else? be they palestinian workers, iraqi workers, asylum seekers being deported, prisoners being maltreated... there are a million and one worthy causes, I'm just warning you to not fall into the activist trap of thinking your cause of the moment is more important that everyone else's, and that no one else is "doing anything". Which happens to a lot of anarchists.
I was clearly talking about creating solidarity through the defence of ryton.
Are you an armchair anarchist? I dunno, i dont really care what the fuck you are.
Im not saying everyone has to devote all their energies to my pet project for fuck sake, showing solidarity to people losing there jobs is is not about one persons little project is it? its about are we a movement which talks about solidarity, or a movement which makes it a reality?
Im not saying people arent doing anything, this thread is supposed to be about organising solidarity actions with the Ryton workers, what is so wrong with that? There is no need to take a position that because there so many things going on, and the plant will probably close anyway so we should just not do anything about it.
And at the end of the day, if you dont want to take part in solidarity actions then fuck off the thread, and go and bitch about me being an activist on libcommunity, if your not interested in showing solidarity then so be it, but dont choke up this thread with your abstentionist shit.
practical libcom organising potential in full action here!
We will go far comrades.
Yup start with the guilt tripping. Would you have a go at your co-workers or friends for not showing enough solidarity with Ryton workers? If not, don't do it here. I've had anarchists like you try to guilt trip me for not going on embassy demos, not going on anti-war marches, not going to meetings about all kinds of shit. It's not helpful, no one can devote themselves to every good cause.
That's not what I said - I'm saying you should be telling the rest of us what we should be devoting all our energies to. By all means organise stuff, try to get people involved, tell us what you learn from it, but don't tell everyone to drop what we're doing to do what you want us to.
Well aren't we civil. And "abstentionist", I see you've taken that right out of the button's mouth, for some reason. What does it even mean? Is saying you shouldn't tell everyone what to do "abstentionist"? In which case yes I am one.
How is that using guilt? If you feel guilty, thats your problem.
Im not telling people to drop everything. Where did i say that? All im trying to do is organise solidarity with workers at the ryton plant, what is so wrong in that?
the buttons mouth did give me that word, but i dont like calling you an armchair anarchist so i robbed the word.
Im telling nobody what to do, if you want to take part in solidarity actions then good and ill argue the case for it til the cows come home, but if you dont want to, then dont bitch at those who do.
I don't feel guilty. I used to, when I used to try and go to everything cos everyone would always say "come to this it's so important, do this it's so important...", and reproach people who didn't. But then you realise you can't do everything. People who try to guilt others into doing too much help cause burn-out.
As I've quoted you several times, you said
If you didn't actually mean that, then fine i have no disagreement, you should've just retracted or re-worded it.
Nothing! Where have I said there's anything wrong with that. Again, as I have said several times:
But it's not a valid statement or insult. If you have a point to
You were though! That's what my issue is with what you said
I'm not bithcing at you for doing anything, I'm bitching at you for being sanctimonius and saying i should devote my energies to that instead of stuff at my work or in my life.
This is important, if you choose not to do anything then thats your choice, and i dont see how i tried to guilt trip you
admittedly it was badly worded, and could of implied i was telling people to sacrifice other commitments but i have asked no one to drop everything and no one to sacrifice ongoing struggles for it, i am simply saying that the loss of this plant is a huge loss to the workers and to coventry and there should be solidarity actions planned to try and stop this from happening.
Why shouldnt we devote time to solidarity? and saying that does not mean drop everything heres the next big activist thing. Does it???
Right well fine, if that's so we have no disagreement, as far as I'm concerned. I thought you were "telling people to sacrifice other commitments", I tried to make clear that that was what I was disagreeing with, hence why I was surprised at your venom!
By solidarity, you mean what precisely? It's all very well invoking an abstract principle, but what practically can we do to stop Ryton being shut down?
Calls for solidarity seem to be a touchy thing to you don't they john
You should see my articles for black star... And you did call me an activist.
The workers have asked for picketts of dealers, which is what we are going to do in brum. Also to call for a boycott of peugeot and Citroen which has been asked for by the workers.
WMA and Brum SF will be going to ryton to talk to workers there and discuss what they want, and discuss the best way for us to show solidarity and to help them out.
can you pass on what they suggest? I'll be sure not to buy a peugeot in the meantime
Yeah i definately will, ill be speaking to a convenor this monday coming hopefully, so as i get info so will everyone else.