Are you a male or a female?

Male
76% (39 votes)
Female
24% (12 votes)
Total votes: 51

Posted By

JDMF
Oct 7 2004 21:18

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Deezer
Oct 13 2004 23:36

"My wife said" but wouldn't post sorta says a lot, or maybe shes just lazy?

Seriously though it may have something to do with a distinct lack of impact or relevance in terms of working class communities and struggles.

Over here where politics is a distinctly nasty version of what some people might call macho (even in the absence of violence and shootings) women are more involved in whats called community activism. Community groups, community education, womens groups, local pressure groups... stuff they can see a short-term and immediate benefit for their communities and themselves out of.

Thats not to say women are completely absent from politics, even the paramilitary variety, they are just in an extremely small minority - even where parties have deliberately tried to attract women this remains the case.

A focus on the issues effecting working class communities and working class women, coupled with an increased relevance, seem to me to be the only way around this. But then again I'm a bloke. BTW over here is Belfast for those who couldn't guess.

Augusto_Sandino
Oct 14 2004 09:23

Maybe the women in the anarchist community just feel better catered to by the anarcho-feminist websites that are out there. I dont know, im not a woman...

3rdseason
Oct 14 2004 10:12
Kidda wrote:

a lot of this riot-fetish is macho bollocks imho

I think this is a big part of the problem. Also perhaps the fact that society conditions women to be obsessed with their image and how others percieve them and maybe anarchism's not seen as 'cool'??!

Quote:
I think pushing the line that men can (and should) be feminists to is an important one.

Yep. This is an issue that Ive thought about and discussed in the past. Perhaps the gender imbalance might start to shift now that the @ movement is less obsessed with summit hopping and black bloc tactics (useful as they are sometimes).

3rdseason
Oct 14 2004 10:19
redyred wrote:

Yeah, put simply gender is ways of dressing, mannerisms etc etc - the way sex difference is patterned according to social norms. And sex is the actual biological thing.

Yeah. Im male, theres no denying that. But I dont want to aspire to be masculine. Neither do I want to aspire to be feminine. I regard these as artificial divisions of behaviour. 8) Ideally, everyone should act without being constrained by gender roles. This doesnt mean all blokes have to act 'girly' or all girls have to act in ways that are thought 'masculine', it just means people shouldnt feel theres a set way of being they have to live up to.

I see this sorta thing as intrinsic to anarchism.

But if I think too hard about it my head hurts. eek grin

Crack Fix Propaganda
Oct 14 2004 12:03

its because women actually live by their beliefs, they dont have to confirm everything for themselves all the time. i find i need to talk about my ideas and get social confirmation (or argument) that my thinking is at least along the right line (or not). but my girlfriend just believes what she believes and would die for that. she doesnt need to talk about it. she doesnt need to ask questions about it, but when it comes to fighting for her beliefs she would strap explosives to herself and take out Blairs house before she let herself kneel to the government.

i think women just have more conviction, men are by nature that little bit weaker with their ideals.

women are weak physically, men are weak spiritually.

Steven.
Oct 14 2004 12:18
3rdseason wrote:
I think this is a big part of the problem. Also perhaps the fact that society conditions women to be obsessed with their image and how others percieve them and maybe anarchism's not seen as 'cool'??!

Good point... I spose it's much less "socially acceptable" for women to be involved in "politics" than men...

lucy82
Oct 14 2004 12:38

Georges Bush said:

Quote:
you can't blame the few blokes in the feds for the existence of patriarchy!

er...thats because i didn't.

however, i can blame the few blokes in the feds for the existence of patriarchy IN the feds if i choose too. i've no intention of getting involved in a fed-bashing exercise, that really wasn't the point i was making.

Crack Fix Propaganda, I'm not too sure what being weak spirtually actually means. by your definition it seems to mean questioning your own beliefs. I don't think this is something to do with being born with a penis. i'd say its a healthy thing to do. theres something scary about blind belief. its not true either that women are necessarily physically weak. try being in labour for fifteen hours and giving birth.

JDMF
Oct 14 2004 12:53
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
"My wife said" but wouldn't post sorta says a lot, or maybe shes just lazy?

yeah, it speaks volumes, though not in the way you immediately assumed, she doesn't like enrager, she had a quick look and saw all the abuse and nastyness and was like fuck that, she has better things to do with her time.

Don't worry, she is active in many do-gooder things.

I constantly try to say that enrager is actually pretty cool place, but no breakthrough yet smile

redyred
Oct 14 2004 14:00
Crack Fix Propaganda wrote:
its because women actually live by their beliefs, they dont have to confirm everything for themselves all the time. i find i need to talk about my ideas and get social confirmation (or argument) that my thinking is at least along the right line (or not). but my girlfriend just believes what she believes and would die for that. she doesnt need to talk about it. she doesnt need to ask questions about it, but when it comes to fighting for her beliefs she would strap explosives to herself and take out Blairs house before she let herself kneel to the government.

i think women just have more conviction, men are by nature that little bit weaker with their ideals.

women are weak physically, men are weak spiritually.

Oh fucking hell. First nutter AL extremism, now biological gender determinism. You know crack fix, you don't have to hang around anarchist boards, the british union of fascists are still going.

rat
Oct 14 2004 23:01

The issue of dress that redyred mentions is an accurate insight into aspects of the various anarchist scenes. The idea of types of dress, could be extended into thinking about other attitudes and ideas that the ‘militants‘ display beyond just their ‘Politics’?

Plenty of black clobber, big boots, beards & banging on about Bakunin.

The boys love it!

Kidda
Oct 14 2004 23:03
George'sBush wrote:

kidda - when you say this

Quote:
patriarchy is still alive and well and unfortunatley its within the anarchist movement to. something that i think a lot of people dont want to face up to.

other experiences that ive had have been along the lines of some anarcho-blokes believing they have ''more important'' struggles to deal with rather than feminism.

What do you mean exactly?

D'you mean you think male anarchists should devote themselves exclusively to feminist struggles (if they're the most "important")?

And it'd be interesting to hear your experiences of patriarchy within the movement :)

twisting me words a little arent you mate confused

what do u mean by 'feminist' struggles?

im the only woman in WMA, i noticed at the AYN gathering there were only about 4 women there through the course of the weekend. Ive noticed a big difference in other situations to. why do you think that is? im not saying theres a single concrete answer just that its not explored enough.

why should we have a hierarchy of importance as to what we devote ourselves to? confused

when ive tried to bring up the issue of feminism (i dont mean in WMA meetings tongue) in some situations ive been told its best put at the bottom of the agenda because there was''workers solidarity'' to be disscussed, and ''prisoner solidarity'' as well as 'direct action' why do we seperate ''feminism'' from all the other struggles were involved in? im not sure we even realise it. women work to (and get a lot more shite than men) women are prisoners to, and people in debt, and people who suffer racism, and homophobia ect ect

i think there needs to be a way where we can interlink the struggles were apart of.

why were women forced to write a statement at the Thessi summit last year because they didnt feel safe amongst some males out in Greece? men who were there calling themselves anarchists im led to believe

I think again one of the biggest problems is,well at least ive found, men feel very uncomfortable talking about feminism as if they feel they dont have a right to because they arent a woman.

i dont know, im not explaining myself very clearly im knackered. i'll try again after some sleep.

i just think this is a really important issue and that we owe it to ourselves to open it up a bit more

smile

lucy82
Oct 15 2004 01:16
Quote:
why were women forced to write a statement at the Thessi summit last year because they didnt feel safe amongst some males out in Greece? men who were there calling themselves anarchists im led to believe

Kidda, why were women forced to write a statement? what was it for? which males? like males in general or specific people? what happened? did the statement achieve anything? working completely off assumptions cause i don't know anything about this, couldn't there have been a more effective way of dealing with whatever the problem was?

sorry, too many questions, but i'd like to know.

i haven't found that men feel uncomfortable talking about feminism tbh. more likely, in most of my experience, they can bang on for hours about how unhelpful and useless it is as a concept or just be fucking patronising and i agree that it gets put at the bottom of the agenda.

but i don't think its because men feel uncomfortable talking about feminism because they aren't women. i think thats kind of a cop out for men. its more like some men don't want to see the experiences of women as mainstream and retreating into workers solidarity etc is more important (which is putting it crudely cause its late and i'm tired) but it's just pathetic cause most low paid workers are women, in insecure employment, with numerous other commitments and the joy of being even poorer when they get old.

prisioner solidarity.. isn't it the case that sucide amongst women prisoners is disproportionate, that more women have mental health problems in prison

and as for direct action, if we ain't there, it won't work. because it means more than shutting down something or stopping something happening...

so i don't really see where people who dismiss feminism as less important, get off. or that it should be seperated from "other" struggles, we are possibly the majority of that fucking stuggle , goddamit.

Crack Fix Propaganda
Oct 15 2004 08:37

blah blah blah, all you talk about is politics and bullshit. this wont solve anything, the government are laughing at you. sat at your computer, discussing revolution instead of fucking doing it.

why not try and shut down the internet and fuck things up instead of being mini versions of tony blair.

you make me sick.

Steven.
Oct 15 2004 10:21
Kidda wrote:
twisting me words a little arent you mate confused

what do u mean by 'feminist' struggles?

Sorry i really didn't mean to twist your words, just find out what you were getting at.

I don't know what "feminist struggles" means really - i worded it like that to try to find out off you!

As for the greece thing - I'd say most of those fuckwits weren't "anarchists", just fucking europunk squatter hooligans. They also smashed loads of shit up, vandalised everything, attacked and mugged people roll eyes

Spartacus
Oct 15 2004 15:31
Quote:
As for the greece thing - I'd say most of those fuckwits weren't "anarchists",

i don't think that's entirely true, believe at least one of the incidents raised involved a guy from the highly organised serious anarchists who don't just live for the destruction of a riot. i won't name names because i don't know his name, and i won't describe him too heavily incase i'm wrong and spreading false rumours about some guy in greece is a bit daft. but if it was him, he's someone who i heard had done a fuck load of other stuff which i really admire, which makes it all the worse that he was involved. but most of the other incidents did indeed involve the twats who probably don't even call themselves anarchists because that would imply too much political coherence...

what happened in greece was that there were a series of incidents of sexual harassment, i don't know how bad as i never managed to find out, but then a load of women held some meetings to discuss how to resolve it, and made a big announcement to everyone one night on stage in various languages. i don't know how effective that was as most people were probably a bit drunk by then (or dopey from petrol fumes), but that is what i gathered happened.

anyway, like kidda says, feminism shouldn't be anywhere on any agenda, it should be integral pretty much everything on the agenda, otherwise it would be a crap anarchist agenda, what with women being about half the population. and what revol68 said.

<sensible part of post ends here>

arse crack fix propaganda wrote (whilst sat at his computer):

Quote:
sat at your computer, discussing revolution instead of fucking doing it.

well what the fuck are you doing here then smartarse? go and carry out your wonderful world saving revolutionary plan of, er, nuking it.

GenerationDecay
Oct 21 2004 05:03

Well... there are probably a few reasons:

1) Women being under-represented in politics generally. This is obviously not in itself a fault of the anarchist movement in itself, more a product of the culture we live in.

2) The system can have a tendancy to propogate itself. If a group has four members, two male, two female, I would hazard a guess its easier to attract more women to the group than if it starts out with four males. And since women are under-represented from the start... Would make for an interesting social experiment anyway.

3) I kinda discussed this point at at a feminist workshop in the Radical Theory part of the autonomous ESF, although not from this perspective - young women getting involved in radical, or even just progressive, politics, may be attracted to the various strands of feminist thought and spend more of their time on this. This obviously isn't to say that feminism and anarchism are mutually exclusive, just making the observation that even if these women wanted to be involved in anarchist politics as well, they have more limitations regarding the time they spend due to other commitments. (incidentally, said workshop was one of only two meetings I've ever been to, from memory, that had a significantly higher proportion of female to male)

4) Related to 3, the lack of attention anarchism seems to pay to feminism as a whole, or its attitudes to feminism or 'women's issues'. The comment made by revol68, about how women's liberation can't be separated from the class struggle, is a case in point. Another thing that came up at the workshop was the lack of focus on interrelationships between people in the movement, resulting in a culture where the loudest (usually male) are attempting to assert their power over others around them. This discussion was more about the Marxist/liberal left, but I think it crosses over.

Just some thoughts....

Jacques Roux
Dec 27 2004 23:34

Cant remember anything about this thread, or if i have posted on it before.... but surely the answer is....

If the a movement consists now of mostly men, unless those men work hard on intiatives which of are interest to women, women wont be attracted.

Likewise with non-white people etc.

Oh and 35 to 8 is pretty good i'd say having been in anarchist meetings where its more like 35 to 2.

Joe Hill
Dec 30 2004 00:32

I find the forum quite sexist?

Although I do like men?

God it's complicated.

Steven.
Dec 30 2004 01:27
Joe Hill wrote:
I find the forum quite sexist?

Although I do like men?

God it's complicated.

Can I ask what/who you find sexist?

Do you mean things people say or like the way they say them or something?

Jacques Roux
Dec 30 2004 11:45

Or if you dont wanna say in public JH PM me or GsB.

Edit: Or Zobag - didnt know you were around online smile

Ramona
Dec 30 2004 12:29

Or me. Cos I'm a girl and all wink