Is it okay to make sexist comments then claim they're ironic?

Yes
17% (4 votes)
No
48% (11 votes)
Only if you're revol68
35% (8 votes)
Total votes: 23

Posted By

AnarchoAl
Jan 23 2005 06:56

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AnarchoAl
Jan 23 2005 06:56

Thought I'd put this contentious question to the vote

Jacques Roux
Jan 23 2005 14:48

In general no, on public message boards etc. definetly no...

Ramona
Jan 23 2005 14:51

No. I don't think so. I have to put up with enough of that shit everyday in real life, without having to grin and bear it here as well.

"Boys will be boys" just doesn't cut it.

lucy82
Jan 23 2005 16:48

no. why should it be ok when it just feeds the same old shit? aren't we supposed to be trying to achieve something different?

the answers so far on the poll are interesting. where would those people who voted yes its ok if revol does it actually draw the line? is there any point where you would think sexist comments are not ironic humour?

in front of women who find it shitty maybe? or don't we count?

i feel sometimes we fight this over and over again, and i'm bored with it. if you want to chuck in boyish comments about big tits or whatever, buy a copy of nuts magazine, a pen and paper and a box of tissues, then go somewhere private and er.. write to their letters page, just don't do it on enrager.

Ramona
Jan 23 2005 17:11

What she said wink

And are those who voted for the last option serious, if so, why, or is enrager irony just spiralling up it's own arse?

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 18:21

Depends on the context, the content and the intentions. Common sense on both sides is required.

PC fascists are as annoying as sexists. FACT.

Ramona
Jan 23 2005 18:33

Are you saying that not tolerating sexist jokes on enrager is being PC Fascist?

The thing is, context etc is all very well in face-to-face situations, but way harder to gauge and get right over the net.

And to be honest, I can't really think think of any contexts where sexist jokes are ok really, irony or no. Call me embittered bra-burner if you will, but I just don't really find guys making sexist jokes and expecting women to laugh at them or just put up with it anything other than infuriating TBH.

Jacques Roux
Jan 23 2005 18:36
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Depends on the context, the content and the intentions. Common sense on both sides is required.

PC fascists are as annoying as sexists. FACT.

No way, on a forum its hard enough to get the message write with just 'non-controversial' chat let alone stuff which could offend people. There is a point where being non-pc stops and you just turn into a sounding like a complete fuckwit. Unfortunatley there are quite a few 'narchos like this around.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 18:38
zobag wrote:
Are you saying that not tolerating sexist jokes on enrager is being PC Fascist?

No and jumping to the worst possible conclusion is a perfect example of what I don't mean by common sense.

To be honest, the actions of certain forum posters who really do know better in this field (ie sexism) are fucking disgusting and completely intolerable. You aren't fucking "working class", you're a dick.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 18:41
rkn wrote:
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Depends on the context, the content and the intentions. Common sense on both sides is required.

PC fascists are as annoying as sexists. FACT.

No way, on a forum its hard enough to get the message write with just 'non-controversial' chat let alone stuff which could offend people. There is a point where being non-pc stops and you just turn into a sounding like a complete fuckwit.

Obviously I was talking about real life.

However, I intensely feel that feminists do alienate potentially interested bodies by being really aggressively PC to such an extent that people feel it's a sterile, worthless concept. Which of course it isn't.

Plus I hate the lifestylist, activist-y "OMGZ ur sOOoO OFFenSiV!!1!!" attitudes that seem to be prevalent in any large (ie outside of Colchester) meeting I've been to, usually from white middle class males. It's just fucking patronising.

Grace
Jan 23 2005 18:41
zobag wrote:
Are you saying that not tolerating sexist jokes on enrager is being PC Fascist?

That's not what I would have gathered from Alan's comments at all. I do agree though that it is inappropriate on the internet, as it's almost impossible to tell whether the person's being serious or not, and very easy for them to claim that they didn't mean to cause offence etc..

<admin edit so Grace can quote properly>

Grace
Jan 23 2005 18:43

Also, why can't I quote properly? cry

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 18:45
Grace wrote:
Also, why can't I quote properly? cry

Cos you have br...OK I'll shut up. embarrassed

Ramona
Jan 23 2005 18:51
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:

No and jumping to the worst possible conclusion is a perfect example of what I don't mean by common sense.

Yup, which was why I asked you what you meant, rather than jumping to conclusions tongue

Offline it's much easier to tell how things were intended, but on boards it's harder.

Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
To be honest, the actions of certain forum posters who really do know better in this field (ie sexism) are fucking disgusting and completely intolerable. You aren't fucking "working class", you're a dick.

eek grin

Grace
Jan 23 2005 18:55
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
Grace wrote:
Also, why can't I quote properly? cry

Cos you have br...OK I'll shut up. embarrassed

Oh how I love you Alan.

AnarchoAl
Jan 23 2005 19:39

Lucy I voted for the revol option myself, it was intended as an obviously stupid option to make a point, and was partially inspired by the flame warriors thread. Obviously I don't know what anyone else who voted for that option thinks...

Wayne
Jan 23 2005 19:49

I voted yes because I hate women. Except Thora. And even her I only like as a sexual object.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 21:32
CAG A&P wrote wrote:
- Capitalism helps prop itself up by keeping the majority of society divided, based on factors such as race, sex, gender, sexuality, religion, age etc. All such oppression must be opposed, and is actively against the interests of the vast majority of society. Racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and patriarchy must be opposed with the utmost militancy at all occasions

Some people on here should fuckin practise what they preach. It makes me sick to the bone.

lucy82
Jan 23 2005 21:44
Quote:
To be honest, the actions of certain forum posters who really do know better in this field (ie sexism) are fucking disgusting and completely intolerable. You aren't fucking "working class", you're a dick.

thanks alan. i really hope this isn't just another clever joke and that you actually mean it.

i'm not some pc person with no sense of humour. i just don't get why its ok for some people to make sexist comments or behave in a sexist way because its seen as ironic humour and then to continue doing it, even when it pisses women off (and probably men too, who think its shit) cause some people think its funny. theres more to bulding some sort of new social and economic system than your own ego or what your mates think, y'know.

i'm not the pc police and i hate feeling like thats the box i'm being put into. but i just think its a shit way of treating women and sort of shit if especially if your on some board that purports to be more than just some chat board. thats all.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 21:57
lucy82 wrote:
Quote:
To be honest, the actions of certain forum posters who really do know better in this field (ie sexism) are fucking disgusting and completely intolerable. You aren't fucking "working class", you're a dick.

thanks alan. i really hope this isn't just another clever joke and that you actually mean it.

Woah, my jokes are clever??

You've caught me in a rare moment of sincerity here since you've touched on an issue that's been worrying me of late. Ask anyone in CAG, I have been extremely uncomfortable with some of the recent sexism on and off this forum.

lucy82
Jan 23 2005 22:05
Quote:
It's an unspoken deal. Vaneigem likens it to the unspoken communication that happens when he hands the waiter in the cafe he sits at the bill. Everyone pretends not to know what's happening, but they all do and feel slightly dirty inside. That's the spectacle, man.

made me laugh anyway embarrassed

Ed
Jan 23 2005 22:20
zobag wrote:
And to be honest, I can't really think think of any contexts where sexist jokes are ok really, irony or no. Call me embittered bra-burner if you will, but I just don't really find guys making sexist jokes and expecting women to laugh at them or just put up with it anything other than infuriating TBH.

Hmm, do you think this counts for all forms of oppression though? I mean, if I start taking the piss out of my black mates by calling them thieves and citing the bell curve theory as proof of their stupidity, does that make me a racist headcase? I don't think so, coz it's obvious that I don't mean it. Same goes for sexism imo.

This doesn't mean every sexist comment should just be brushed aside and laughed at coz it's ironic just coz an anarchist makes the joke. Being an anarchist doesn't give you special 'anti-patriarchy' powers. But even on the internet, you can still tell most of the time when someone is taking the piss out of modern patriarchal prejudices, and when they're just being a misogynist.

Obviously it all depends on context though.

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 22:30
lucy82 wrote:
Quote:
It's an unspoken deal. Vaneigem likens it to the unspoken communication that happens when he hands the waiter in the cafe he sits at the bill. Everyone pretends not to know what's happening, but they all do and feel slightly dirty inside. That's the spectacle, man.

made me laugh anyway embarrassed

Haha, I was expecting some cutting rebuttal that linked my references to Situationism to my class, sexuality and drug of choice (clearly ketamines).

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 23 2005 22:35
Ed wrote:
Obviously it all depends on context though.

...was more or less my point.

But Ed, you're acting on the premise that this is all guys teasing female friends of theirs, and the girl laughing along and finding it funny. Much of the shit said on this forum though is more malicious than light-hearted and the saddest thing is they often try to justify it.

Of course, all the comments are done slightly tongue in cheek, but that's only so the offending parties can backtrack faster than a Premiership ref during a counter-attack in the event of someone getting seriously offended.

Thora
Jan 23 2005 22:39
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
But Ed, you're acting on the premise that this is all guys teasing female friends of theirs, and the girl laughing along and finding it funny. Much of the shit said on this forum though is more malicious than light-hearted and the saddest thing is they often try to justify it.

That's a good point. But even if the comment isn't malicious it adds to a certain "blokey" atmosphere on these boards that maybe newer/less regular posters find off-putting.

lucy82
Jan 23 2005 22:43

i don't know really but i wonder if it depends on which side of the fence your on to some extent? (which other people have said in the time it took me to write this)

like if your taking the piss out of friends of yours who are black and calling them thieves and citing the bellcurve because you think its funny and they think it funny too, how do you know if they really think its funny? l

like when pissed up men shout "take me, i'm yours" at my daughter walking down the road, and she laughs, it looks like she thinks its funny but that isn't why she laughs.

and if people say sexist stuff at work to me, i might not say anything, i might even think its funny sometimes but it is a double edged joke and it can make me uncomfortable and i might not choose to show that depending on the context.

but on the internet, on a forum board, its different. innocent stuff in the odd sentence happens cause thats the culture we live in but deliberate stuff to make a joke is shit if other people object to it.

you shouldn't have to work out whether its taking the piss or not, just don't do it. would it be a massive loss to the world of internet humour if people just fucked off with the misogynistic jokes and creeping sexism?

lucy82
Jan 23 2005 22:52
Quote:
Haha, I was expecting some cutting rebuttal that linked my references to Situationism to my class, sexuality and drug of choice (clearly ketamines).

i got the references to Situationism and laughed.

Sorry, really should have tried harder there.

Ed
Jan 23 2005 23:40
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
But Ed, you're acting on the premise that this is all guys teasing female friends of theirs, and the girl laughing along and finding it funny. Much of the shit said on this forum though is more malicious than light-hearted and the saddest thing is they often try to justify it.

Fair point, but the question was "Is it okay to make sexist comments then claim they're ironic?" not "Are all the sexist comments on this board made in a totally self-aware and non-sexist manner?". I was answering the first.

Lucy82 wrote:
when pissed up men shout "take me, i'm yours" at my daughter walking down the road, and she laughs, it looks like she thinks its funny but that isn't why she laughs.

Yeah, but this is my point. It depends on context. When me and my mates make racist, sexist etc jokes at each other its funny because we know and trust each other and know that none of us believes that race, sex etc determines our characteristics. Pissed men shouting at your kid are not known or trusted but on the other hand can be a bit scary and hence, there is a completely different dynamic going on.

Lucy82 wrote:
you shouldn't have to work out whether its taking the piss or not, just don't do it. would it be a massive loss to the world of internet humour if people just fucked off with the misogynistic jokes and creeping sexism?

Yeah, fair point. But is an ironic sexist joke between friends actually sexist? Obviously lines have been crossed on this board, but does this mean that the entire concept of self-aware jokes should be scrapped? I don't think so. I consider zobag and Thora to be mates of mine and I trust that they don't think I'm a stingy Yid, so I don't care if they call me it (though I do object to zobag's choice of boyfriend wink ). I also don't care when Gav denies the Holocaust coz I know he doesn't believe it. Also, I don't think I've ever had any contact with revol where the phrases "Yid" and "Paddy" haven't been exchanged.

That said, boundaries that people set up, even between friends should be respected. But at the same time, isn't the wind-up part of friendships. I mean, I've been calling a mate of mine a nonce for ages now (to the point where he decided not to link a girl just coz she was a bit yougner than him. She was above legal age, just!).

Basically, this whole thing is pretty complicated. There are rules but then others which negate those rules. As much as you can try and set out a general "do's and dont's" for this sort of thing, it's never gonna work in every situation. Mates take the piss light-heartedly and even when boundaries are set, we like to play with those boundaries (be honest, we've all done it). Personal might be political, but it's easier to be political about capital then it is about how we relate to each other, not as many variables I guess.

Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
but that's only so the offending parties can backtrack faster than a Premiership ref during a counter-attack in the event of someone getting seriously offended.

Ten proletarian points for using a football analogy. Just fifty more and you can join the RMT wink

Caiman del Barrio
Jan 24 2005 00:00
Ed wrote:
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
But Ed, you're acting on the premise that this is all guys teasing female friends of theirs, and the girl laughing along and finding it funny. Much of the shit said on this forum though is more malicious than light-hearted and the saddest thing is they often try to justify it.

Fair point, but the question was "Is it okay to make sexist comments then claim they're ironic?" not "Are all the sexist comments on this board made in a totally self-aware and non-sexist manner?". I was answering the first.

I kinda sense though that the majority of the time people belatedly claim it's "ironic", it's just to cover their asses. I'd suggest that a lot of the time, people are pretty much serious.

Quote:
Lucy82 wrote:
when pissed up men shout "take me, i'm yours" at my daughter walking down the road, and she laughs, it looks like she thinks its funny but that isn't why she laughs.

Yeah, but this is my point. It depends on context. When me and my mates make racist, sexist etc jokes at each other its funny because we know and trust each other and know that none of us believes that race, sex etc determines our characteristics. Pissed men shouting at your kid are not known or trusted but on the other hand can be a bit scary and hence, there is a completely different dynamic going on.

Innit.

(More proleterian points or trying too hard??) grin

gav
Jan 24 2005 00:09
Alan_is_Fucking_Dead wrote:
I kinda sense though that the majority of the time people belatedly claim it's "ironic", it's just to cover their asses. I'd suggest that a lot of the time, people are pretty much serious.

i thought we were debating whether these jokes were appropriate on an internet forum, ie where we dont know everyone personally, where it is more difficult to convey irony, etc

but your saying the jokes are no longer ironic, and they are serious? do you really think that? i am pretty shocked you said that. sad