Maybe AF should reply to this?

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raw
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Jun 27 2011 08:39
Maybe AF should reply to this?

See here:

http://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2011/06/481277.html

Jason Cortez
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Jun 27 2011 11:39

What is your opinion on this Raw

raw
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Jun 27 2011 12:03
Jason Cortez wrote:
What is your opinion on this Raw

One of confusion. First the victim was a "nazi" then he's mates with the Anarchists, then Jock was an "antifascist", now he's a member of the British Army.

If you know more Jason then please let us know.

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Anarchia
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Jun 27 2011 12:15

There's a lot of background to the case at http://www.freejock.com/

Jason Cortez
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Jun 27 2011 12:40

So why not ask AF directly or post a general question like ' does anyone know anything more about this'? Having been involved in prisoner support, these things can be very messy. I am no more informed than anyone else without direct contacts and just the internet.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 13:48

AF national secretary had been contacted about it repeteadly, first time in January, kept writing back that the case is being "investigated". last contact was in March and silence since then, AF still failed to provide their position on the fact and also failed to comment on the fact that FAB, thei sisters organisation actually demands prison sentence for anybody!!! That and the fact that FAB states Monov was teir friend, despite cunt being well known to hang around with fascist Levski hooligans and being involved in racist attack on two Roma boys.
Why FAB would be friends with racist scumbag is anyones guess.
Make what you want out of it, but AF lack of reply is very worrying and we had to write this statement finally in order to try to get AF to make their position clear.
Jock is a person with anti-fascist beliefs, before joining British Army he had been squatting in Bristol and quite few people know him from there. He never however claimed to be an Anarchist or any sort of activist. I don't see how being in British Army makes it impossible for you to be an anti-fascist as well.
He has done the right thing and instead of solidarity he gets his name smeared by idiots connected with FAB and AF has done NOTHING to stop it, instead trying to sweep the whole issue under the carpet. Moreover they had questioned Anarchist Solidarity reliability, heavily hinting that we might be even fake group created by fascists in order to sow confusion (ha ha, that was a good one...)
Question is simple here guys- which fucking side are you on?

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2011 13:54
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
Make what you want out of it, but AF lack of reply is very worrying

what are you actually expecting them to say? since they're a UK organisation, presumably all they can do is contact their Bulgarian section and ask them what happened, or do a google search like anyone else.

anarchistsolidarity wrote:
Moreover they had questioned Anarchist Solidarity reliability, heavily hinting that we might be even fake group created by fascists in order to sow confusion

sorry, but i've been active in the anarchist movement for a decade and i've never heard of 'anarchist solidarity', so it would seem reasonable to enquire if anyone knows who you are. the rest seems to be based on a mixture of conjecture and private correspondance.

fwiw i'm not in the AF, but you're giving the impression you're more interested in creating a shitstorm/scandal and attacking the AF than getting to the bottom of this.

Edit: The anarchist solidarity blog seems to have been rather hastily assembled (e.g. the about page is blank), the oldest article is from October 2010 although i can't find any caches of the site prior to May 2011 (wordpress allows backdating, so article dates aren't helpful). Aside from what look like some anti-fascist re-blogs, all the content seems to relate to Jock Palfreeman. So it appears to be a single-issue blog set up in the name of 'anarchist solidarity' for a man you're adamant isn't an anarchist. That does seem a little odd, and i would certainly enquire as to whether anyone knew who was behind the group if they were making allegations/requests of me.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 13:58

Joseph I am not interested in creating a shitstorm and as a matter of fact evn though you haven't heard of AS you know me personally wink AS is a pretty young group based around your area that was formed shortly after Jock's case. If you look closely we also had few benefit events in Cowley in that time.

I expect AF to state their position clearly on that case, is it too much to ask? FAB is their sisters organisation after all- if I would be in any sort of federation and one of the groups affiliated with me would actually start demanding prison sentences for somebody and admit being friends with racist scumbag football hooligan, I would be seriously questioning them about it.

AF had MONTHS to reply to that but they choose to fob us off after few email and stopped replying to any correspondence in March.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 14:00

I am also happy to meet with you and discuss the case in person if ya want.

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2011 14:09
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
AS is a pretty young group based around your area that was formed shortly after Jock's case. If you look closely we also had few benefit events in Cowley in that time.

Ok, but i didn't know that, so the AF couldn't be expected to, and asking around would seem a reasonable thing to do. Like i say they're in a bind: the only knowledge they'll have of Bulgaria is what they hear from their Bulgarian section, which you're saying is bullshit. I imagine to unpick that will take time: their default position has to be to take the word of their fraternal section until contrary evidence is produced and presented to their international according to whatever procedures the IAF has in place for such things. I don't see what else they can do, apart from asking the question (which it sounds like they have) or accusing their fraternal section of lies/links to fascist groups, which is a very serious claim, based on the word of a previously unknown organisation.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 14:19

fair enough, but at least they could have released some sort of statement about that instead of pretending to conduct an investigation and then going quiet. AF has done nothing to help the situation I am afraid.
Nobody is angry at AF asking around, but what is the point of asking people you know for their confirmation of the group identitiy to then turn around and say they don't believe you anyway?
(one of AF people asked mutual comrade)

Another question still stands- in their statement FAB demands "appropiate punishment" for jock from authorities- correct me if I am wrong but are't Anarchists against prisons and asking authorities to put somebody in prison is a massive fail in itself? That is in their statment black on white, no need to take a word of unknown group for that.

Also lack of support for Jock whereas it is clear what happened and that the guy went to aid of two Roma boys and significant amount fo anarchist and anti-fascists are already involved in solidarity actions is quite telling as well.

This is a massive faux paux on AF side.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 14:23

it is also a FACT that Monov was involved in attack on Roma boys on night in question and FAB seems to be conveniently ommitting that fact...

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 27 2011 14:40
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
pretending to conduct an investigation

i've no idea if they're pretending, or who they asked, or how they reacted, since i'm not in the AF. if i had to guess i'd imagine it's taking a long time because if what you're saying is correct the FAB are lying and possibly collaborating with fascists. That's a very, very serious matter and i'd imagine it would take the IAF time to look into it, in the meantime i don't know what the AF can say beyond that they're investigating.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 14:49

ok, I will be even happy with a statement saying that they are investigating.. instead there is silence since March and our initial message asking them to join solidarity actions with Jock from September 2010 went unanswered.. Investigation aside, where is solidarity?

Besides, I have been involved in Anarchist groups for last 18 years and conducted difficult investigations as well, they really don't usually last THAT long!
But yeah, lets see what AF has to say about that.. and if AF members even know about that issue..

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Serge Forward
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Jun 27 2011 15:00

anarchistsolidarity, why don't you listen to what Josph Kay is saying and try not acting like a spoilt brat. If the AF is looking into it, then give them a bit of time, especially as it's a very serious allegation against the Bulgarian Federation and would certainly need to be substantiated, verified, and would involve more than just the opinion of whoever happens to deal with emails to the AF. You want the AF to release a statement... based on what? He said, she said? Surely any such statement would be after an investigation rather than simply gobbing off on Libcom based on nowt but hearsay.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 15:05

Bit of time? Since January was not enough then? Statement could just say that allegations like that had been brought up and are being investigated... also again- why the fuck "anarchist" group calls the state to imprison somebody and there is no reaction from their sisters organisation even just to that? No discussion, no debate, no requests to clarify position.Why does AF refused any solidarity to Jock whereas dozens of comrades already joined in all over the world organising actions?

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 15:14

let me ask you, how would you feel if you would devote a lot of time and effort into solidarity campaign, knowing that this brave lad could be spending next 17 years in prison and at the same time having FAB going out of their way to sabotage that campaign and AF conducting investigation for fucking ages, whilst at the same time ignoring your please for help in the campaign?

akai
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Jun 27 2011 15:48

I know a bit about this situation. But first a big of a comment. Hope they don't start confusing your Anarchist Solidarity with ours which exists in Poland. The address we have been using for some years when we have international calls for solidarity in English has been anarchistsolidarity@yahoo.com, which is extremely similar to yours. Locally we use a different address and of course the same is in Polish.

About the situation with FAB, Jock, IFA, etc. - the first thing that has to be said is that the IFA sections in Eastern Europe are extremely problematic and IFA sections in general have been burying their head in the sand about it for years. I do not believe they are "investigating" anything about either this matter or any others.

We have had this discussion with members of FAB several times and are not satisfied with the explanations. Some years ago other Bulgarian comrades pointed out that FAB had was some contacts with right-wing persons, and of course this can be explained by them by the fact that the society is right-wing. What seems clear to me is that many people are connected to others by counterculture or friendship networks, not politics and thus you get sometimes things like friendships with guys like this and since they did not renounce him and only called Jock a murderer, it is clear that those individuals hold personal connections of any sort over their so-called political ideals.

Of course it is difficult to get any official statement from FAB, because like other IFA groups, they act more like a loose network than a real organization. There are, I am sure, individuals in FAB signing things as FAB without consulting anybody. Among such things signed "FAB" were threats made against members of ZSP. ZSP is not involved with this case in any way as a group, but some of its individual members spread information about the case and, for example, somebody signing himself "FAB" was threatening physical violence against the comrades for this. Also we know of very unpleasant incidents with some Greek and Russian comrades made by FAB members.

So, the long and the short of it is that their position on this is fucked. It is not 100% clear that everybody in the organization has that position (I recently talked with somebody who doesn't), but it gets on their website and on numerous forums statements have been published signed by FAB, so I can assume the position is pretty official.

I was just in Bulgaria but unfortunately did not manage to meet any FAB comrade to talk more about it in person but will be back there soon and for sure will meet them. As we already talked about this, I can assume what some of the arguments could be, because this is rather a common problem in the Balkans and part of Eastern Europe where there is a very large right-wing community. Some anarchists in Poland have also cooperated with right-wingers and justify it under the guise of being open to "other people". Of course there is some slight truth to the fact that you cannot avoid right-wing people in these places and sometimes you need to try to talk to them and change their minds, but in all cases it should be clear that we don't consider these people our buddies and we do not in any way suggest we support racism or racist thugs.

raw
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Jun 27 2011 21:07
Jason Cortez wrote:
So why not ask AF directly or post a general question like ' does anyone know anything more about this'? Having been involved in prisoner support, these things can be very messy. I am no more informed than anyone else without direct contacts and just the internet.

Because the article was accusing AF of not responding to emails - and maybe this was the easiest way to find out more.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 27 2011 23:08
raw wrote:
[

Because the article was accusing AF of not responding to emails - and maybe this was the easiest way to find out more.

that

raw
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Jun 27 2011 23:47

And funny how just asking for some clarification I'm now being accused of shit stirring wall

raw
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Jun 28 2011 05:55
akai wrote:
I know a bit about this situation. But first a big of a comment. Hope they don't start confusing your Anarchist Solidarity with ours which exists in Poland. The address we have been using for some years when we have international calls for solidarity in English has been anarchistsolidarity@yahoo.com, which is extremely similar to yours. Locally we use a different address and of course the same is in Polish.

About the situation with FAB, Jock, IFA, etc. - the first thing that has to be said is that the IFA sections in Eastern Europe are extremely problematic and IFA sections in general have been burying their head in the sand about it for years. I do not believe they are "investigating" anything about either this matter or any others.

We have had this discussion with members of FAB several times and are not satisfied with the explanations. Some years ago other Bulgarian comrades pointed out that FAB had was some contacts with right-wing persons, and of course this can be explained by them by the fact that the society is right-wing. What seems clear to me is that many people are connected to others by counterculture or friendship networks, not politics and thus you get sometimes things like friendships with guys like this and since they did not renounce him and only called Jock a murderer, it is clear that those individuals hold personal connections of any sort over their so-called political ideals.

Of course it is difficult to get any official statement from FAB, because like other IFA groups, they act more like a loose network than a real organization. There are, I am sure, individuals in FAB signing things as FAB without consulting anybody. Among such things signed "FAB" were threats made against members of ZSP. ZSP is not involved with this case in any way as a group, but some of its individual members spread information about the case and, for example, somebody signing himself "FAB" was threatening physical violence against the comrades for this. Also we know of very unpleasant incidents with some Greek and Russian comrades made by FAB members.

So, the long and the short of it is that their position on this is fucked. It is not 100% clear that everybody in the organization has that position (I recently talked with somebody who doesn't), but it gets on their website and on numerous forums statements have been published signed by FAB, so I can assume the position is pretty official.

I was just in Bulgaria but unfortunately did not manage to meet any FAB comrade to talk more about it in person but will be back there soon and for sure will meet them. As we already talked about this, I can assume what some of the arguments could be, because this is rather a common problem in the Balkans and part of Eastern Europe where there is a very large right-wing community. Some anarchists in Poland have also cooperated with right-wingers and justify it under the guise of being open to "other people". Of course there is some slight truth to the fact that you cannot avoid right-wing people in these places and sometimes you need to try to talk to them and change their minds, but in all cases it should be clear that we don't consider these people our buddies and we do not in any way suggest we support racism or racist thugs.

Thanks Akai - this seems to make sense and I have a similar experience with some eastern european anarchist networks.

Battlescarred
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Jun 28 2011 11:24

If you were so concerned, Raw, then why did you not email AF directly?

raw
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Jun 28 2011 11:47
Battlescarred wrote:
If you were so concerned, Raw, then why did you not email AF directly?

My last thing on this but I did say

Quote:
Because the article was accusing AF of not responding to emails

Anyway, to be honest I've had it with this forum.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 28 2011 12:33

Just a quick message- this time it will not go away and be swept under a carpet. There are many AF members on this forum, I am surprised nobody seems to be willing to comment..

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Jun 28 2011 15:30
raw wrote:
And funny how just asking for some clarification I'm now being accused of shit stirring wall

Reading the thread I don't think you "raw" are being accused of shit stirring. As I see it you just pointed out, to the AF on here, some shit stirring going on elsewhere and you were wondering what the story was. I had a similar reaction when I saw this on indymedia too.

raw
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Jun 28 2011 18:24
Shorty wrote:
raw wrote:
And funny how just asking for some clarification I'm now being accused of shit stirring wall

Reading the thread I don't think you "raw" are being accused of shit stirring. As I see it you just pointed out, to the AF on here, some shit stirring going on elsewhere and you were wondering what the story was. I had a similar reaction when I saw this on indymedia too.

Thank you for restoring my sanity

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Steven.
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Jun 28 2011 18:31

Yeah, raw I don't think that accusation is at you.

you posting that up here is perfectly fair enough, because I and I'm sure other AF members hadn't seen it on Indymedia (I know I haven't looked at Indymedia in years).

rest of post removed, as I don't want my personal view to be mistakenly taken as the AF position. An official AF statement will be released soon

anarchistsolidarity
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Jun 28 2011 18:55

thats exactly kind of attitude that is the problem- instead of replying to criticism (which is totally different from slagging off, but it seems that not in the eyes of few sensitive AF members) person asking questions is ridiculed, called shit-stirrer etc.

Once again I am asking direct question and it would be nice to get direct reply- why does AFs sister group have a statement on their website calling state to put somebody in prison, to us it says AF doesn't have a problem with prisons.
Why does FAB claim to be friends with a person that was involved in racist attack? (and Akai quite correctly described the situation and FAB reasons behind it, but it still doesn't explain AF ignoring that issue or hiding behind flimsy "we don't have a way of fidning out who is right" excuses).
Of course I think I know the real answer- people in AF don't give a flying fuck about that and about prisoner support in general , but at least just have enough decency to say "we don't have time to that, we don't care and please don'nt bother us anymore with that issue".

Steven. wrote:
- Thirdly, I don't have any time to do prisoner support anyway, regardless of what my views are

well, lets hope then you will never end up in prison yourself...

Anyway, if somebody has anything constructive to say, besides that I am slagging somebody off or stirring shit, then you are more than welcome. Otherwise stop with the bullshit and make your position clear.

Steven. wrote:
Either way, this person should have better things to do than starting posts slagging anarchist groups off for not doing what he/she wants. If he/she is an anarchist, he/she should do the anarchist thing and do it him/herself!

Well, we are doing our best really, but the problem is with FAB actually actively going out of their way to sabotage any solidarity with Jock, spreading lies and threats and you guys in AF doing fuck all about it. I have no problem with people not doing what I or our little goup wants, I have a problem with people sabotaging our efforts. Do you see the difference ?

Now as far as your person is concerned you made it clear which side you are on, I wonder how about the others?

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888
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Jun 28 2011 19:09
Quote:
Of course I think I know the real answer- people in AF don't give a flying fuck about that and about prisoner support in general , but at least just have enough decency to say "we don't have time to that, we don't care and please don'nt bother us anymore with that issue".

The AF have done a lot more prisoner support than you ever have, it is not their fault if FAB is some kind of weird confused group, and it's pretty hard to communicate clearly with Bulgaria. Attacking the AF from the cover of a barely-existent group (AS) that no one knows about is not the way to go about things, please try and learn how to communicate effectively and diplomatically.

Having said that, maybe something should be done about the FAB if the accusations above are true. Should AF/other IFA groups call for an investigation with the possible eventual consequence of their expulsion from the IFA if they are as bad as they sound? I would say so.

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Tojiah
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Jun 28 2011 19:11

Why be in the same federation with an organization you can't communicate clearly with and which you can't vouch for?