Maybe AF should reply to this?

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akai
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Jul 5 2011 21:23

We have always been able to get some answer from somebody claiming to be FAB very quickly.

The only technical question I would have though is who is writing in the name of FAB. This is a serious question as, if you read the interview with FAB on the CSAF website, you will find out that it is a federation with no formal membership at all. I suppose it also has no formal federal structures, so the bigger question is always how representative these letters from FAB are. But from what I understand, and as I mentioned before, these things were published on their website, on many public forums, etc. and there haven't been any denials of this. I only know one individual who disagrees but from what he says, the opinions stated are typical.

There was discussion about this a couple of years ago on one mailing list that was informative. I can ask a couple of the participants in the discussion if they would say something here.

gypsy
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Jul 5 2011 21:27
MT wrote:
Jock was a soldier who does not deserve support.

Eh what even if he did do an admirable thing? Such as stopping a gang attacking roma...

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Serge Forward
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Jul 5 2011 21:27

Anarchist solidarity,

But you were told that the AF were looking into it and I don't know what else to say to you feller, apart from, you really need to be working with the AF on this rather than being so abrasive and uncomradely.

Never mind, you might find this useful:

That's all I have to say on this until we hear the outcome from the AF or IFA.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 5 2011 21:35

We weren't told what "looking into it" consists at any point and pretty quickly we were not told anything anymore.
Serge, I value effectiveness much more above patting each other on the back and not wanting to upset anybody. As far as my books go our little group has done everything we could to work together with ANYBODY interested in helping Jock and also were more than willing to work alongside AF on that one, it just there doesn't seem to be any interest and since we started that subject it seems that the issue had been known for much longer time than we originally thought.
I am really getting tied of all this shit, I really hope AF will make a move really soon and announce it, whatever move it is. Hopefully as wel Jock will receive much more support from groups and individuals that clearly should have been giving him at least token support instead of complete silence.

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AIW
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Jul 5 2011 21:47
Quote:
Rest of post removed, as I don't want my personal view to be mistakenly taken as the AF position. An official AF statement will be released soon... That's all I have to say on this until we hear the outcome from the AF or IFA... The AF will certainly be investigating the matter as thoroughly as it possibly can rather than making general off the cuff statements without properly checking the situation out first... Anyway, I do wish people should wait for the AF or the IFA to come back on this rather than speculating or trying to pre-empt whatever those organisations are going to say about it... Look, all I can personally say is, I don't know and I'm waiting for more info before making any comment. What I do know however, is that the AF will act honourably, whatever the findings.

Down with the Politicians eh comrades!
"My party right or wrong"?

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AIW
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Jul 5 2011 22:01

The FAI had a policy of joining the army. I assume that is why, when it kicked off in Spain, the Anarchists were armed.

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Ed
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Jul 5 2011 23:22
gypsy wrote:
MT wrote:
Jock was a soldier who does not deserve support.

Eh what even if he did do an admirable thing? Such as stopping a gang attacking roma...

I read that as MT paraphrasing the FAB's position, not MT's opinion.

Also, Serge and other AFers, I hope the AF does stick to it's word on this one. After watching the documentary linked to here it does seem like Jock is in a harrowing situation and the FAB seem to be definitely siding with the racist hooligans on this one. I'd recommend everyone take the time out to watch the documentary as it really highlights the severity of the situation.. sad

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 6 2011 20:56

indeed indeed sad

Battlescarred
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Jul 6 2011 21:14
AIW wrote:
The FAI had a policy of joining the army. I assume that is why, when it kicked off in Spain, the Anarchists were armed.

Err, no.

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Serge Forward
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Jul 6 2011 21:25
AIW wrote:
Quote:
Rest of post removed, as I don't want my personal view to be mistakenly taken as the AF position. An official AF statement will be released soon... That's all I have to say on this until we hear the outcome from the AF or IFA... The AF will certainly be investigating the matter as thoroughly as it possibly can rather than making general off the cuff statements without properly checking the situation out first... Anyway, I do wish people should wait for the AF or the IFA to come back on this rather than speculating or trying to pre-empt whatever those organisations are going to say about it... Look, all I can personally say is, I don't know and I'm waiting for more info before making any comment. What I do know however, is that the AF will act honourably, whatever the findings.

Down with the Politicians eh comrades!
"My party right or wrong"?

I don't get it. Explain please.

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AIW
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Jul 7 2011 10:39

Serge, what I meant was that when politicians don't want to talk about something they call an enquiry and then claim they can't talk about it until after the enquiry. I'm accusing AFed of acting like a politicians party in that it has apparently silenced it's members on this issue.

T La Palli
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Jul 7 2011 10:50

AIW, how could the AF (of which I am a member) be silenced on the matter? A statement is being drafted. If AF appear silent its because that statement is being agreed among the federation, not because we've been gagged ffs. And if an nequiry is set up, and people decide to stay quiet until that enquiry is carried out, then that seems a reasonable choice to make.

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AIW
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Jul 7 2011 10:51
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Anarchistsolidarity: And what the fuck do you mean "alleged" support for the prison system? Calling for state to imprison somebody IS support for the prison system, isn't it?

No, one might be against inequality in theory but not in practice.

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AIW
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Jul 7 2011 11:00

T, are members of AFed free to say what their personal opinions are ahead of a collective opinion being agreed? Are you all just freely choosing not to?

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welshboy
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Jul 7 2011 11:12
AIW wrote:
T, are members of AFed free to say what their personal opinions are ahead of a collective opinion being agreed? Are you all just freely choosing not to?

Are you for real? As it goes we have to wait for the Central Committee to get approval from Comrade Battlescarred that the position holds true to the original ACF line in all regards...

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 7 2011 11:28

glad to hear the statement is being prepared, beter late than never wink

I just hope it will not concentrate on supposed "AF bashing" in out statement and allegedly "wrong tone" used there but will deal with the issues raised in a manner fitting for anarchist organisation with good politics. I also really sincerely hope that this will be beginning of at least some sort of support for Jock from AF. That way or another I am really hoping this statement will clearly show where is AF standing on that issue.

Any idea when it might be expected roughly?

Cheers

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Jul 7 2011 11:32
AIW wrote:
Serge, what I meant was that when politicians don't want to talk about something they call an enquiry and then claim they can't talk about it until after the enquiry. I'm accusing AFed of acting like a politicians party in that it has apparently silenced it's members on this issue.

Fair enough. And I'm accusing you of being a admin: no flaming. This and subsequent flaming removed who probably doesn't give a - about the rights and wrongs of this case but will use it to have a pop at the AF anyway. -

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AIW
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Jul 7 2011 11:40
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Battlescarred: AIW wrote:
Quote:
The FAI had a policy of joining the army. I assume that is why, when it kicked off in Spain, the Anarchists were armed.

Err, no.

No, they didn't have that policy? No,they weren't armed? No, that policy wasn't the only contributing factor?

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 7 2011 17:17

My understanding is that the anarchists in Spain because in 36 they forced the government to open up the arsenals to the workers' militias.

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Django
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Jul 7 2011 17:36

They had also been acquiring weapons for years and storing them in caches - however this was not because they'd joined the army or police but because they'd fought it on a number of occasions such as the Asturias revolt, and seized arms. This is discussed in Anarchists in the Spanish Revolution by Pierats.

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Django
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Jul 7 2011 17:37
AIW wrote:
Serge, what I meant was that when politicians don't want to talk about something they call an enquiry and then claim they can't talk about it until after the enquiry. I'm accusing AFed of acting like a politicians party in that it has apparently silenced it's members on this issue.

Yeah, because waiting to be informed on something before forming an opinion is bourgeois. Good to see that's something you're not at risk of becoming any time soon.

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Serge Forward
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Jul 7 2011 17:46
Django wrote:
Yeah, because waiting to be informed on something before forming an opinion is bourgeois. Good to see that's something you're not at risk of becoming any time soon.

Aye, it's a similar mentality to those knuckle dragging fuckwits who take sides on someone's guilt or innocence because their newspaper of choice tells them whether the person in the dock is guilty or not guilty. Facts, mere details, who fuckin needs em?

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Khawaga
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Jul 7 2011 17:47
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Fair enough. And I'm accusing you of being a shit stirring tosser who probably doesn't give a fuck about the rights and wrongs of this case but will use it to have a pop at the AF anyway. Nice not knowing you

AIW is a troll that loves Hamas.

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AIW
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Jul 8 2011 10:23
Quote:
They had also been acquiring weapons for years and storing them in caches - however this was not because they'd joined the army or police but because they'd fought it on a number of occasions such as the Asturias revolt, and seized arms. This is discussed in Anarchists in the Spanish Revolution by Pierats.

I didn't mention the police but they did, according to Casas, have the policy of joining the army.

Quote:
AIW is a troll that loves Hamas.

If you mean the organisation Hamas that is false. If by Hamas you mean "The Gaza Ghetto" (as in "We are bombing Hamas") then I do oppose that ongoing siege.
This isn't only about whether the guy did it; I have expressed no opinion on that; it is also about our attitudes towards the prison system.

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Khawaga
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Jul 8 2011 13:39

Well, AIW every time someone critiques any of the nationalist gangs in Palestine you cry Zionism.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 8 2011 16:17

you are effectively derailing the thread..

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Ed
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Jul 8 2011 22:43

Yeah guys, any more off-topic comments will be deleted.

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Auld-bod
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Jul 9 2011 07:57

Are you feeling tired of the outside world – why not just nit-pick on fellow libertarians?
I am not a member of any group so I have no particular axe to grind. It is however amazing to see so much effort and moral indignation being expended on something so trite.

I am not saying that ‘Jock’ the non-libertarian Australian, deserves to be banged up in jail. Though why libertarians should be asked or expected to expend their scarce resources on someone, who wishing to extend his UK visa, would appear to be willing to kill on behalf of the British state for this privilege is rather puzzling. Perhaps the AF is being mistaken for Amnesty International, or some other worthy liberal institution?

Three other points – ‘he did the right thing’, making martyrs out of right-wingers is a very poor idea – ever hear of Horst Wessel? In the 1970s it was known that Martin Webster of N.F. infamy was frequenting gay pubs in Camden Town. Wisely there was a consensus on the left to ignore him if he was recognised under these circumstances. Most martyrs engender sympathy for their cause, though I am not advocating anarchist martyrdom. As that wee Scots guru Bobby Lynn used to rightly say, “Anarchism is something worth living for”.

I gather Bulgaria is a rather more taxing place to be a libertarian than the UK. It is rather presumptuous for relatively comfortable residents of these isles to sneer at statements made by people nearer to the facts. Self-righteous petulance is a poor persuader.

Finally having had experience of living in rough neighbourhoods, I know that the idea of carrying a knife for protection is a very poor idea. Eventually somebody calls your bluff and then somebody gets hurt – in one form or another. We have to live to learn.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 9 2011 12:00

Libertarians are asked not to sabotage solidarity efforts for him at the very least. Nobody is criticising AF for not expressing their solidarity with Jock (although printing a supportive article and sending few protest emails wouldnt do any harm either)

He did not want to make a martyr out of right winger, he rushed to stop the racist attack happening and saved lifes of two Roma boys who with no doubt would be either killed or seriously hurt. In my books that makes him deserving my total support.
And as for "presumpteous" statements made by people living in relative comfort etc etc.- as someone who is from Eastern Europe himself, having spent 15 years in the frontline struggle against nazis there, having friends killed, hurt, imprisoned because of the nazis I feel quite entitled to make statements- FAB are bunch of cowards, openly admitting their friendship with a racist thug and them being "neearer" events doesnt change that fact, so fuck them and fuck anybody who defends their despicable actions re: Jock.

Thanks for your patronising comments about carrying knifes, I am sure they bring a lot into that debate.

Now I am terribly sorry mate, but to be honest for all your fancy language and long statements you talk poo- somebody should have told you that sometimes its better to say nothing that to say nothing using many words.

PS Jock was always interested in politics, squatting together with some Anarchist comrades in Bristol and in general having left wing ideas. Whilst in prison he organised prisoners union and spreads libertarian propaganda there, efforts that already landed him in isolation on couple of occasions.
We didn't mention any of that because he never considered himself an activist, anarchist or whatever, he avoids any sort of classification and besides his politics in that matter are really not that important. What is important that he is a man that done the right thing and behaved with dignity and integrity throughout the whole ordeal.

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@ndy
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Jul 9 2011 12:37

admin: flaming of a newbie removed. Flaming, especially of new users is not permitted