Maybe AF should reply to this?

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Steven.
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Jul 17 2011 12:07
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
Oh yeah, Monov wasn't racist he was just beating up those Roma boys because.. they probably looked bad on him or something..

look, do you have any evidence whatsoever that Monov was a racist?

All kinds of people get involved in fights with all kinds of people of different ethnicities all the time, mostly this has absolutely no connection to their ethnicity.

As far as I can see it there is fairly decent evidence Monov is not racist (the personal testimony of a Bulgarian anarchist), and not a single piece of evidence suggesting anything else. Jock even states that he doesn't remember stabbing Monov, and the defence solicitors were trying to argue that it might not have been his knife which killed him, so even Jock and the defence team don't have any idea of Monov's involvement in the incident.

If you have some evidence to the contrary please present it.

Quote:
Anyway, I stand by what I said earlier, this statement is a big, big dissapointment. Not only it refused to answer any of the issues brought up, it basically says that FAB had a good reason to sabotage solidarity with Jock, demand prison sentence for him etc.

This is a complete lie. It answers the issues as to why the AF didn't get back to you: because of the tone of your correspondence (which people can request to see if they want, or you can feel free to publish yourself). It also says that the AF won't make a statement on the case in general at the moment, because we know things we can put in writing.

It doesn't say anything about there being any reason to sabotage the campaign, and nor does it do anything like demand a prison sentence for him, which is an outrageous lie. Even the FAB statement doesn't say Jock should be jailed, it just says the guilty party should receive an appropriate punishment. The defence seem to be arguing that someone else with a double bladed knife was guilty, and there does not seem to be decent evidence that Jock is guilty of murder.

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I can't find words to describe how I feel about it...

maybe then you should try to read it again, and actually understand it, rather than inventing what it actually says and lying about it.

nastyned
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Jul 17 2011 12:13
no1 wrote:
I'm confused .... The AFed statement raises the question of whether AS is a 'bone fide organisation', but doesn't say what AFed have concluded in that respect. By leaving that question hanging in the air, doesn't that imply Afed are still questioning the credibility and general nature of AS?

Whilst we were trying to find out who they were AS decided to publish things about the AF they knew to be untrue. This made us very wary of sharing any information with them. There's no suggestion AS have links to the far right though.

gypsy
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Jul 17 2011 12:20
Steven. wrote:
Monov was a personal friend of one of theirs

Won't this influence the FABs findings?

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Ed
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Jul 17 2011 13:12
Steven. wrote:
look, do you have any evidence whatsoever that Monov was a racist?

All kinds of people get involved in fights with all kinds of people of different ethnicities all the time, mostly this has absolutely no connection to their ethnicity.

As far as I can see it there is fairly decent evidence Monov is not racist (the personal testimony of a Bulgarian anarchist), and not a single piece of evidence suggesting anything else.

Hmm, this is massively naive in my opinion. If you saw a group of fifteen white guys beating up two Roma people, of course you couldn't say 100% that it was racially motivated, but come on, you know it almost definitely would be. A fight is a fight, but they don't usually involve two distinct ethnic groups and such an unfair balance of numbers unless one group is out to get the other for one reason or another. And if they were, why pick the two Roma and not, say, anyone else in Sofia at the time?

As for Monov, you're right, he might not have been a racist himself. But as akai points out, it's not uncommon for people to mix with right-wingers through subcultural ties. And he was really pissed that night. As all the original statements of Monov's friends said, they were all out and got in a fight with these Roma boys. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that he'd get involved in a fight that his friends were in, and it seems clear that his friends were racists..

Just a quick question: am I right in remembering that it was a group of football hooligans that Monov was with? Does anyone know which team and what the reputation of the fans is? I'm thinking in terms of racism, fascism, violence etc..

Steven. wrote:
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
I can't find words to describe how I feel about it...

maybe then you should try to read it again, and actually understand it, rather than inventing what it actually says and lying about it.

I think that's harsh. I agree that AS has read stuff into the statement that isn't there, but I've got to say that I'm disappointed with the statement as well. It could have said more (as Django points out, something saying that it has been sent off to IFA for investigation, and maybe a little something like AF always sides with people fighting racism). As it stands, I feel like the thrust of it was just "be more polite when emailing the AF" and that's just dodging the issue imo.

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Jul 17 2011 13:21
gypsy wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Monov was a personal friend of one of theirs

Won't this influence the FABs findings?

if a personal friend of yours was killed by an antifascist, I would have thought you would be a good position to know whether they were a fascist or not. So it could only influence things in a good way, as it would mean you would have actual direct knowledge.

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Jul 17 2011 15:42
nastyned wrote:
Peter wrote:
nastyned wrote:
Peter wrote:
FAB trying to stop non-Bulgarian anarchists from organising solidarity for Jock sounds a lot like siding with racists to me.

confused Are they doing that?

Akai said so in several posts in this thread.

They haven't said that to us.

So just like the AF has issues with reading emails that are sent to them, they have issues reading threads dedicated to them and in which several of their members participate? How big are you that you already have one hand not knowing what the other is about?

Steven. wrote:
gypsy wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Monov was a personal friend of one of theirs

Won't this influence the FABs findings?

if a personal friend of yours was killed by an antifascist, I would have thought you would be a good position to know whether they were a fascist or not. So it could only influence things in a good way, as it would mean you would have actual direct knowledge.

I would also not trust any of his statements about this friend because he would naturally be trying to defend him and paint a rosier picture to him to anyone who isn't a friend, particularly the police and foreigners.

Wellclose Square
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Jul 17 2011 15:44
Steven. wrote:
gypsy wrote:
Steven. wrote:
Monov was a personal friend of one of theirs

Won't this influence the FABs findings?

if a personal friend of yours was killed by an antifascist, I would have thought you would be a good position to know whether they were a fascist or not. So it could only influence things in a good way, as it would mean you would have actual direct knowledge.

I thought the question was whether it was a racist attack, rather than a fascist attack. I've kept an eye on this thread since its inception, and have resisted putting my two eggs in until now. From this distance, it seems to me that there's too much defensiveness about organisational integrity (AF, FAB... dunno who AS are) when it appears to be a matter of the failure to support someone who seems to have acted from a sense of 'natural human decency' (whether or not they're 'anarchist' - and I don't buy that "He's a soldier" shit) to defend a couple of Roma lads from an attack by a far greater number of people (which, even if it didn't imply racism - which it does to me - is definitely an unfair fight). What price organisational integrity? (That's a rhetorical question, as I've got nothing more to say about this, other than hoping that Jock gets the support he deserves).

nastyned
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Jul 17 2011 17:43
Tojiah wrote:

So just like the AF has issues with reading emails that are sent to them, they have issues reading threads dedicated to them and in which several of their members participate? How big are you that you already have one hand not knowing what the other is about?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Steve_j
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Jul 17 2011 18:23
AFed wrote:
Statement regarding our dealings with “Anarchist Solidarity”

So as the title suggests this is not a statement regarding the various allegations that have been leveled at FAB

AFed wrote:
As it stands, having communicated with the Federation of Anarchists in Bulgaria (FAB) and with other knowledgeable parties in Bulgaria and the Balkans more widely, we won't be issuing any statement.

And am i assuming from this that AFed is generally content that the allegations are false?

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Jul 17 2011 18:33
nastyned wrote:
Tojiah wrote:

So just like the AF has issues with reading emails that are sent to them, they have issues reading threads dedicated to them and in which several of their members participate? How big are you that you already have one hand not knowing what the other is about?

I don't understand what you're saying here.

Akai has presented these further allegations on this thread, directed at the AF, several times. You have participated in this thread. What kind of cop-out is "they haven't said this to us"? May they please buy a complaint form at the post office, and send it over priority, so you lot will respond in up to 60 days? What kind of behavior is this from a federation of anarchists?

nastyned
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Jul 17 2011 18:40

The FAB have never asked us to not support Jock Palfreeman and the information we've got seems to have no relation to the allegations Akai has made I'm taking them with a large pinch of salt.

radicalgraffiti
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Jul 17 2011 19:25

If someone is aware of some issue with a member of ifa they should contact ifa with what ever evidence they have, not make vague comments on an internet forum, if they don't do that then it is difficult to believe that their is genuinely a really serious issue that they are concerned about

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 17 2011 20:30

well, I think your answers sum it better than I could do it myself. Politicians could learn thing or two from you in regards of art of question dodging and twisting the truth around. Well done, you can congratulate yourself. You have shown those inpolite AS bastards!!!

Ed- team is called Levski, http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/levskis.jpg/ lovely picture of their crew ...

BTW, journalist that have done recent documentary about Jock called Conviction is preparing another one, this time taking better look at Monov and his mates, hopefully she will manage to do as good job as on the one about Jock .

nastyned
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Jul 17 2011 21:17

AS - I've never called you a bastard, or tried to twist the truth. But it is a FACT you have told lies about the AF and you know you have.

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Jul 17 2011 21:25
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
Ed- team is called Levski, http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/levskis.jpg/ lovely picture of their crew ...

Although I will make no comment on this case in particular, if you are actually presenting this as "evidence" that anyone connected with Levski is a racist or fascist, then you're not only scraping the bottom of the barrel but you really really should not be let out on your own.

You could probably find similar pictures of Leeds, Chelsea, Rangers and various other British and European clubs' fans but that doesn't mean that anyone who supports any of those teams is a racist or fascist.

akai
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Jul 17 2011 22:46

Cannot really send private correspondence here, but somethings published on the internet, OK. On one portal I am involved with, there where several whacky discussions with people claiming to be FAB. Why I say claiming to be FAB is because different individual people have been known to sign "FAB" on internet forums, correspondence etc., and it is not likely they are delegated by the others to do so. I can't find all stuff since we changed our server and some things don't appear on search - in addition, we do not keep up things that break out editorial policy. But here is this first discussion I found while searching. There was an article which also mentioned the statement of FAB. The author of comments is a member of The "Vasil Ikonomov" Anarchist Group which is part of FAB. Apparently not very clear who he was talking to and not aware of our previous contact with other members of FAB on the matter. (Maybe they do not have a secretary forwarding mail.)

Sorry for rush translation, it is more or less readable. (Disclaimer: not 100% exact but more or less).

Kak si pozvolqvate???
FAB (niezweryfikowane), Wto, 2011-01-25 00:19

Как си позволявате да коментирате и даже да обиждате една от най-старите анархистически организации в Европа, нашата ФАБ, заради случай с който въобще не сте запознати?

Вашият "Джок" уби едно невинно момче, което никога не е било нацист! И нека Джок има доблестта да носи последствията от нещата които е вършил мъртво пиян...

Вие и глупавите руснаци, които правите "солидарност" на австралийския наркоман, помагате на враговете на анархисткото движение в България.

И по-внимателно с обидите да не разберете колко дълги са ни ръцете...

Translation:
How dare you comment and even insult one of the oldest anarchist organizations in Europe, our FAB, because of what you do not you know?

Your "Jock" killed an innocent boy who was never a Nazi! And let Jock have the courage to bear the consequences of things done dead drunk ...

You and the stupid Russians, who make "solidarity" with the Australian drug addict, helping the enemies of the anarchist movement in Bulgaria.

And more careful with the insults, you do not know how long our hands are ...
**
One comrade wrote:
1.Can you explain better why this "normal boy" as you named it, was beating some roma people?
2.Even if your nice organization is one of the oldest anarchist group in Europe, so what?
3.Even if Jock was totally drunk during the attack it doesn't change that he has a right to a normall process in court.
4.The strongest argument you are using is that this boy was "your friend" This is stupid as hell. I think is time for you to change some "friends"

The "FAB" guy wrote:
Кой си ти, че да ти давам обяснения, бе цървул!

Незнам каква група или организация стои зад този сайт CIA, но използвайки контактите си в Полша, ще поискаме официално обяснение, защо се публикуват подобни неща, придружени от лъжи и обиди.

Най-лесното е да пишете на имейла на ФАБ за да разберете каквото ви интересува.
Срам ме е от такива лъже-анархисти и псевдо-антифашисти, като тези защитаващи "Джок".

Who are you, that I should give you explanations, you moccasin!

I do not know what group or organization is behind this site, but by using contacts in Poland, we will ask for an official explanation as to why such things are published, accompanied by lies and insults.

The easiest is to write an email to the FAB to find what you need.
I am ashamed of such pseudo-anarchists and anti-fascists, such as those protecting "Jock".

Somebody responded with an oh kurwa, which is a not nice word for a woman but which is used commonly just to mean "oh shit" or something like this.

Курва е майка ти, а клоун баща ти. Отговори си сам ти какъв си...

По принцип имам добро мнение за поляците като народ - борбени са и много са изстрадали в историята си.
Проблема на анархистите ви е, че нямате традиции и история на които да се опрете като младо движение след 1989г. Затова лесно сте се заразили с опортюнизма на западно-европейските "анархисти", едно от проявлениеята на който е т.нар. "антифа", което в своята нетолератност и заслепение, може спокойно да конкурира опонентите си фашисти. Конкретен пример сляпата политическата подкрепа за човек извършил тежко криминално престъпление, без дори да проверите фактите...

Your mother is a whore and your father is a clown.

In general I have a good opinion of Poles as a nation, they are fighters and they have suffered a lot in their history.
The problem with anarchists is that you do not have a tradition which you can build on as a young movement after 1989. Therefore it is easy to be infected by the opportunism of Western European "anarchists", one of the manifestations of which is the so-called "Antifa", which in its intolerance and blindness, can easily compete with their opponents, the fascists. A concrete example of blind political support for a person who committed a serious criminal offense, without checking the facts ...

Абе кой е по-добре запознат със случая? Вие които сте на хиляда километра оттук или ние в България?
Какво ми коментираш и вадиш заключения като нищо не знаеш, бе ахмако.
Монов никога не е бил националист или нацист, не разбирате ли, че ние го познавахме това момче? Просто е ходил по мачове и е бил във фен клуб на един от отборите.
Казвам го, да го предадете и на другите глупендари солидарни с австралиеца - на Балканите ще сте persona non grata

Who knows this better? You who are thousands of kilometers away or those in Bulgaria. What you comment to me and your conclusions show you know nothing. Monov was not a nationalist or a nazi, don't know know that we knew this boy. He just went to matches and was in the fan club of one team. I say and pass it on to other stupid people in solidarity with the Australian, in the Balkans you are persona non grata.

Да ви обясня за последно и повече няма да се занимавам с вас.
Не е имало никакви нападнати "роми", а кръчмарски скандал. И какви са тия приказки от хиляда и една нощ - 15 нацисти, 30 нацисти??? Това са пълни глупости. Тези които вие наричате нацисти, са били 4-5 момчета, доста по-малки на години от австралиеца и по-слаби от него физически. Да не говорим, че той е професионален военен - знаете ли това? Хлапетата са побягнали, а той ги е гонил и наръгал двама. Първите институции към които вашия Джок се обръща за "солидарност" са посолството на Великобритания и Британската армия, но те го отрязват...

Потресен съм от политическата неграмотност, липсата на обща култура и най-обикновено плиткоумие в тези, които коментират ФАБ, нейните позиции и в частност тази по отношение на австралиеца, тук и в други сайтове...
Как ФАБ ще е пацифистка организация бе? Вие и тези в смешния форум Черна котка побъркани ли сте?
Който подкрепя австралиеца и прави кампании за солидарност с него е наш враг! Запомнете го това.
Ние имаме една българска поговорка : "Планина с планина не се среща - човек с човек се среща." И това го запомнете. И че с най-голямо удоволствие ще натрошим кокалите на разни интернет плъхове и убитаци!

To tell you the last time and I will no longer deal with you.
There were no attacked "Roma", just a row in a pub. And what are these tales of a Thousand and One Nights - 15 nazis, 30 nazis?? This is bullshit. Those who you call Nazis were 4-5 guys, younger than the Australian and weaker than him physically. Not to mention that he is a professional soldier - do you know that? The kids were running, and he pursued them and stabbed two. The first institutions which are paying solidarity to which your Jock are the British Embassy and the British army

I am shocked by the political illiteracy, lack of a common culture, those who commented FAB, its positions and in particular for the Australian, here and in other sites ...
How is FAB a pacifist organization was? You and that funny Black Cat Forum - are you crazy?
Which supports and makes campaigns of solidarity with the Australian is our enemy! Remember this.
We have a Bulgarian saying: (transl: sorry cannot really translate it!) "Mountain doesn't meet with a mountain - man meets man." And remember it. And with the greatest pleasure we will break the bones of rats on the Internet.

Long live revolutionary anarchism!
Long live FAB!
Death to traitors and opportunists!

Ако някой ме псува ще го тура на майка му до бъбрека..
Very sorry folks... I am not sure how to read it... It is something like, I swear, if somebody travels (to Bulgaria)... then it is something about his kidney to his mother??? Sorry, just don't understand the phrase. Sounds like a threat, but could be wrong.

***

I think people can judge it for themselves, but I have some comments on it.

This might not be something clear to all readers, but there is some discourse here which has a deeper context in Eastern Europe. In some parts of society, the ideas of separateness which have deep roots in national traditions (ie seeing the "nation" as distinct in character from "the West") come back to life in criticism of "western influences", "globalization", "western lifestyle". In Eastern Europe, this has been over the last 15 years one of the most common meeting points for left and right ideologies - the same reaction against the intrusion of "the West", although often for different reasons, but sometimes the same.

In some anarchist movements you can also find this type of discourse... and mostly it is addressed towards certain issues - like antifascism. like gay and lesbian rights, feminism and other things. Personally, I also have some criticisms of certain aspects of some groups dealing in these areas, for example if they merge into liberal politics... but in argumentation, some criticize these things in the same way as right-wing critics, bringing another common point to the table.

How I interpret the argument of this person is something like, you stupid Russians and Poles who got under the influence of the West. Like as if we do not make an opinion as an Eastern European should, or that whatever opinion is made, is caused by "infection" by the West... (in other words, contamination of our (Eastern) consciousness?)

Further, the part about how the author liked the Polish people is a bit fishy. It seems like based on some mythological national characteristics...

The lecture about how the problem is that we have no tradition... besides being not true, it is just like, what the fuck... are people anarchists because of referring to tradition? Like a Bulgarian is more revolutionary than a Pole because of some cult of tradition?

As I maybe pointed out before, the case might well be more complex and the characters Monov and Jock might be more complicated. Still, I am not satisfied by explanations such as above. I also think that what the guy wrote was problematic, but not because of the bad words... I don't care about that or fake politeness. There is denial that there were Roma, that there were racists... this contradicts a lot of testimony and even other explanations from the same organization. I have a big problem that throughout this case, individual people from FAB were writing statements and signing "FAB" - this is unacceptable. (There is more than one federation in E. Europe that does not really practice some of the important principles of federalism... it seems like anybody can write "FAB".) About this "enemy" stuff and warning people about being non-grata, it is really sort of psycho stuff, furthermore, it is not true - FAB are not the only anarchists in that country, not everybody from FAB shares this opinion and it's really authoritarian for an individual to speak in such a way on behalf of everybody. And I am critical about those remarks about liking Poles which convey some supposed national characteristics on everybody.

I am sorry, I am busy, but perhaps I will find more stuff like this which was published and will put it up.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 17 2011 22:56

If those comments are made online and not verifiably by FAB members, shouldn't we take them with a pinch of salt?

nastyned
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Jul 17 2011 23:00

Our experience is clearly different from yours as we've had sane and reasoned contact with the FAB and they've never asked us to not support Jock.

radicalgraffiti
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Jul 17 2011 23:01

This is from an internet forum right? do you have a link? is there any reason to believe this person is a member of FAB except that they sign there posts FAB? have you communicated with FAB directly (for example by and official email address or on their website?) to confirm that this person speaks for FAB or is even a member?

I assume you would have done this? there are people who claim to represent IFA or member federations, some hostile some that may mean well.

anarchistsolidarity
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Jul 17 2011 23:05

@Serge I really suggest you refrain from personal remarks. Otherwise I might just really start taking it personal.

nastyned
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Jul 17 2011 23:07

LOL! Anarchist Solidarity or what?

Wellclose Square
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Jul 17 2011 23:30

Sorry, I broke my own rule (by posting on this thread again) - solidarity with Jock, who appears to have defended (absolutely rightly) a couple of people under attack from a greater number of people whose online associates have (according to Akai) been happy to spout off solidarity with the attackers on an anarchist foruim.

Why all the esprit de corps? An injustice has been done, surely? Defend? Attack complicity with racism?

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Serge Forward
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Jul 17 2011 23:39
anarchistsolidarity wrote:
@Serge I really suggest you refrain from personal remarks. Otherwise I might just really start taking it personal.

I think that's part of the problem here, as you do seem to personalise things a fair bit. This reduces your credibility. When you are rude or demanding, that also lowers your credibility. When you present pictures of some far right Levski firm as 'evidence' to support your assertions about this case, your remaining credibility just plummets.

I'm sure you're a really nice guy when you're away from t'internet, but if that last comment of yours is meant to be some kind of threat, please confirm this so I can go ahead and kack me kecks.

Or shall we kiss and make up?

akai
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Jul 17 2011 23:54

Fuck, this is such a discussion. How many times have people asked if anybody talked to FAB? Why do I have to repeat myself? And maybe somebody is missing the point... there are multiple people speaking on behalf of FAB, I do not know if anybody at all in the federation is officially delegated and accountable to speak on anything, they publicly claim not to have any official membership, mail was sent to and answered by the "official mail" address... The whole time that I point to the fact that the public use of the name "FAB" is problematic, this is used to dismiss statements of people in FAB, which are never rebutted by FAB. On the other hand, people seem quite sure that their correspondence, probably also with individual people from FAB, regardless of what they pretend to be, are more representative than others.

FAB as an organization has not responded with disclaimers to any of the things written in its name. Sorry, but what does that say? If I went on Libcom and registered my organization name as a user, then people should expect that I post approved texts, or am authorized in some way, or at least sign my name as well... and if I wrote something like "AF is the enemy of ZSP are you are not welcome in Poland", signed as the organization, I should be kicked out and they would write a disclaimer and apology.

Further, I said who the author is, what group he is from.

I think I will go back to what I was thinking earlier about this thread, which is fuck it. I don't see any reason to waste more time looking for these old discussions when it seems that the explanations in FAB's defense are as weak and unclear as the FAB members' defense of Monov.

I would like to see an official statement of FAB which can be verified to have been agreed by the majority of organization ... this has been going on for years ...and personally I think that any decent organization which has been faced with such a question for so long should have dealt with it in a clear way, and they should have done something about their members writing inappropriate things in the name of the organization... I mean, really it is one thing to sign your own name, another to sign FAB.

No, this should not be taken with a grain of salt, because the organization is tolerant of its individual members acting so inappropriately to people in different places, in the name of the organization, and it did not, after some years of controversy, any clear and public position.

OK, enough for me with this shit...

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 17 2011 23:52

Alright I'm about to go to bed. Locking this thread for 24 hours to keep a lid on the personal spats. Please don't carry them over to other threads or we'll have to moderate them. As this has been going on for months, 24hrs to cool off doesn't seem to impose any undue delays.

gypsy
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Jul 18 2011 21:32

Does anyone from the FAB post on here?

radicalgraffiti
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Jul 18 2011 22:09

akai can you confirm that you contacted the fab on their email of fab [AT] a-bg.org or using the web form or phone no. at http://anarchy.bg/contact.html or on their forums on the same site? and that they confirmed that this person is who they say they are? and or they made equivalent comments? and that your attempts to deal with this by directly talking to fab have failed?

If this is the case can you contact ifa through one of the member federations (ifa web site - http://i-f-a.org/ ) and provide details of problematic statements made by people claiming to be fab, including links where possible, and what you/your organisation has done to alert fab to this problem and how they responded.

Admin: email edited to prevent spamming.

Leo
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Jul 19 2011 00:53
Quote:
Fuck, this is such a discussion. How many times have people asked if anybody talked to FAB? Why do I have to repeat myself?

Possibly because some people are taking all this with an amount of salt much more than a pinch - an amount which would probably cause hypertension rather quickly.

Quote:
I think I will go back to what I was thinking earlier about this thread, which is fuck it. I don't see any reason to waste more time looking for these old discussions when it seems that the explanations in FAB's defense are as weak and unclear as the FAB members' defense of Monov.

I agree with this, along with a lot of things you have said in this thread. Regardless of whether you think it will be a waste of time to continue or not, I think your posts were very informative, objective and reasonable. I think there are other reasons why they weren't appreciated as they should have been.

I am not an anarchist, yet there are anarchists who I consider comrades and there are anarchists who consider class enemies. With its clear proletarian positions, I have always considered the AF a revolutionary organization and had mostly comradely relations with AF members I came across online (the ones I am referring to are mainly the AF people from Revleft, not Libcom).

On this, I would imagine there are those anarchists who would disagree with what I say, probably those for whom the main question is authority, and they would say all who say they are against authority and thus all anarchists are comrades and marxists, even if they are anti-stalinist, anti-trotskyists and even anti-leninist are, well, not comrades. I also think there are anarchists who are quite capable of differentiating between those who are anti-state, against nationalism, for workers liberation and those who, well, simply aren't. The AF I would say belongs to the second group on this question and is fully aware of the fact that an organization calling itself anarchist isn't necessarily so and can be involved in pretty nasty things. A more or less recent article can pretty easily demonstrate this I think: http://libcom.org/history/anarcho-syndicalists-mexican-revolution-casa-del-obrero-mundial

Of course I do understand that investigating these things take time, and I also understand that all this may have to go through lots of complicated internal mechanisms in the AF and in the IAF and so on. Lastly I would also have no problem with the AF not commenting in public about this even after finding out that every single point about the story is completely true due to having a more long term strategy on this focused on waging an internal struggle in the IAF trying to get people kicked out or depending on the situation even organizing a split. And I even don't have that big a problem with the AF declaration which of course was openly dodging and avoiding the main issue. All I can say is that I think it made the AF look bad and I don't know anything about it.

What bothers me deeply is the way some people have responded to this question in this thread. I truly hope that there is no need to state that these are extremely serious accusations, and the attitude taken by some posters bordering mockery is very troubling. Also, I have to admit that I found the openly patronizing behavior shown by some here towards Eastern European posters who are not involved with either the IAF or the group called Anarchist Solidarity and were simply trying to explain objectively the situation in some Eastern European countries pretty disgusting.

Akai has said in one of his/her posts here that this is an old story and the IAF groups in the West are basically burying their heads under the sand about it. I don't know whether this is true or not. However the problematic attitude I mentioned above makes me think it is more probable than anything else. In this sense I would be, pleasantly of course, surprised if anything at all came out of this investigation.

The situation with the Roma people in the Eastern Europe, I have heard, is pretty grim. I remember Devrim telling me the story of an anarchist of Roma ethnicity in the Czech Republic who was the victim of a racist attack. This man was in prison for killing one of the racists who attacked him in self-defense, and most if not all the anarchists in the country had refused to support him in any way. One of the excuses was that the "anarchists were against all violence".

Merely based on the quotes from the correspondence Akai posted with FAB, I would be inclined to think that not only is this a group with which a revolutionary organization can exist together in the same international, but it is one with which a revolutionary organization can't even do any joint work with.

One way I can think of to prove I'm wrong on this would be for the AF people in correspondence with the FAB to ask for a public FAB statement condemning all violence against the Rome people. I'd be anxious to know how the FAB would respond. I'd be willing to bet that it would make a lot of the people in the FAB quite furious if someone can somehow convince someone from the FAB to sign it - it is very probable for people like this fella who "have a generally good opinion of the Poles as a nation" to "have a generally bad opinion of the Roma as a nation".

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Devrim
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Jul 18 2011 23:50
Leo wrote:
The situation with the Roma people in the Eastern Europe, I have heard, is pretty grim. I remember Devrim telling me the story of an anarchist of Roma ethnicity in the Czech Republic who was the victim of a racist attack. This man was in prison for killing one of the racists who attacked him in self-defense, and most if not all the anarchists in the country had refused to support him in any way. One of the excuses was that the "anarchists were against all violence"..

I think that you have misremembered some (or even most) of the actual facts here. It was in Slovakia, he was a Trotskyist (member of the local 'Workers Power ' group), and the anarchists who didn't support him did not do so because he was a Trotskyist.

Devrim

Leo
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Jul 19 2011 00:21
Quote:
I think that you have misremembered some (or even most) of the actual facts here. It was in Slovakia, he was a Trotskyist (member of the local 'Workers Power ' group), and the anarchists who didn't support him did not do so because he was a Trotskyist.

Ah, right. Well it has been some years since you told me about the event. I do remember you saying that virtually no one supported him though, except the KPK, is that right?