Phoenix Liberation Movement

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Battlescarred
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Jul 17 2006 16:17

So did Hitler!!

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rat
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Jul 17 2006 21:00

Guevara was a nasty little Stalinist shit.

red star

enelpozo
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Jul 17 2006 21:52
phoenixd7 wrote:
And Guevara was a great man, he died fighting for his beleifs, can you claim that?

No, can you?

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Tacks
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Jul 18 2006 09:02

perhaps we could kill him? Then he could come back on here and be able to claim it.

Deal or no deal?

enelpozo
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Jul 18 2006 09:32

Shouldn't that be a picture of Noel Edmonds?

phoenixd7
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Jul 18 2006 16:47

Wow, that was a torrent of anti-cheism. But read my thoughts, he was a hero of the cuban revolution, with nothing more in his mind than to help the impoverished people, with first hand experience of real poverty, he was butchered in Bolivia and his corpse mutilated and put on show. Sure he liked Stalin, but who didn't? Infact, Che was a big supporter of unity between the Communist regimes, which would make them stronger and couldn't have been a bad idea. I might ask what anyone has against him, since he's done nothing wrong at all.

Further more, i'm pretty pissed that any of you would say something like that. I wonder who you looked up to (to the anarcho-commies) when first discovering 'it'? I'd bet it was Che.

Why don't you go and read some of his work, such as Guerrilla Warfare, or even the motorcycle diaries?

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Refused
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Jul 18 2006 16:52
phoenixd7 wrote:
Sure he liked Stalin, but who didn't?

grin

phoenixd7 wrote:
I might ask what anyone has against him, since he's done nothing wrong at all.

He raped dolphins.

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Lazy Riser
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Jul 18 2006 18:01

Hi

Quote:
He raped dolphins.

They were asking for it. Dirty tarts.

Love

LR

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pingtiao
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Jul 18 2006 21:18

they said "click click CLICK clickclickclick CLICKKK" but they meant "yes"

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Serge Forward
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Jul 18 2006 23:28
phoenixd7 wrote:
Wow, that was a torrent of anti-cheism. But read my thoughts, he was a hero of the cuban revolution, with nothing more in his mind than to help the impoverished people, with first hand experience of real poverty, he was butchered in Bolivia and his corpse mutilated and put on show. Sure he liked Stalin, but who didn't? Infact, Che was a big supporter of unity between the Communist regimes, which would make them stronger and couldn't have been a bad idea. I might ask what anyone has against him, since he's done nothing wrong at all.

Further more, i'm pretty pissed that any of you would say something like that. I wonder who you looked up to (to the anarcho-commies) when first discovering 'it'? I'd bet it was Che.

Why don't you go and read some of his work, such as Guerrilla Warfare, or even the motorcycle diaries?

Phoenix, nice to see your enthusiasm but you have no knowledge of what happened to the anarchist movement in Cuba, thanks to Guevara, Castro and their mates. In fact, you should know that the Cuban anarchists naively helped out the castroites only to find themselves later subject to mass arrests by the new regime.

And if you don't know why anarchists have a problem with stalinism, leninism or trotskyism, then you relly ought to read up a bit more before sounding off about what we do and don't do, and how you alone seem to have all the answers.

You make all your comments from a position of complete ignorance. Maybe people would take you more seriously here if you made the little effort required to wise up.

Battlescarred
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Jul 19 2006 09:59
phoenixd7 wrote:
Wow, that was a torrent of anti-cheism. But read my thoughts, he was a hero of the cuban revolution, with nothing more in his mind than to help the impoverished people, with first hand experience of real poverty, he was butchered in Bolivia and his corpse mutilated and put on show. Sure he liked Stalin, but who didn't? Infact, Che was a big supporter of unity between the Communist regimes, which would make them stronger and couldn't have been a bad idea. I might ask what anyone has against him, since he's done nothing wrong at all.

Further more, i'm pretty pissed that any of you would say something like that. I wonder who you looked up to (to the anarcho-commies) when first discovering 'it'? I'd bet it was Che.

Why don't you go and read some of his work, such as Guerrilla Warfare, or even the motorcycle diaries?

Aww, poor Che, being picked on by da nasty anarchist bullies

Why don't you go and read the article on Che on libcom history under individuals from an anarchist perspective before you come out with your ill-informed comments?

Battlescarred
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Jul 19 2006 10:03

Here

http://libcom.org/history/articles/1928-1967-ernesto-che-guevara/index.php

phoenixd7
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Jul 20 2006 14:50

Fairly done. I didn't know about the anarchists in cuba. Okay, you stumped me for a response. I'm not saying I have all the answers, i'm just saying what I think. I'm well aware Lenin was anti-Anarchist and Stalin too, but that was the old way of thinking, sure you can condemn Guevara for his dolphin romances, but wasn't he a hero, held up by the people under the red flag? He was given a cushy position in Cuba as fincincial minister (or some such), but he chose to go back to Bolivia to fight like a guerrilla, because that was what he did best, and what he loved. Everyone has their bad points, find me one person who doesn't, but I really think that young Ernesto G was a good man.

People wanted communism to really work, so they signed up with the top dogs in Russia, who happened to be Stalinists, what other choice did they have? To be crushed under the heel of the U.S?

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pingtiao
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Jul 20 2006 15:44

You seem to be repeating what your earlier posts said, taking no account of the responses.

Please have a bit of a read around before continuing this- or at least sit and think about the responses you have had already!

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Serge Forward
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Jul 20 2006 23:49
phoenixd7 wrote:
Everyone has their bad points, find me one person who doesn't...

Hmmm.... Nestor Makhno, Buenaventura Durruti, Erico Malatesta, Camilo Berneri, etc. etc.

None of them perfect of course but each one a million times better than Guevara. Like I say, Phoenix, do some research before spouting off.

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rat
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Jul 21 2006 20:13

Makhno…

there was that little incident at the railroad station.

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rat
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Jul 22 2006 07:17

Max Hoelz?

phoenixd7
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Jul 22 2006 13:57

Reapeating my self again folks,

"no one is squeaky clean" (I phrased it differently (just for effect))

Actually, while the earlier point about anti-Anarchist activities by Che may well be founded in truth, let's not forget that the U.S hated Cuba, still does a bit, and they have some of the best spindoctors in the world. I'm not saying that it's all shit, but consider the idea (Fact really) that the CIA employed everyone to bullshit and backstab, not to mention propaganda.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 22 2006 14:23
phoenixd7 wrote:
consider the idea (Fact really) that the CIA employed everyone to bullshit and backstab, not to mention propaganda.

They paid Cuban anarchists to smear Castro? Any evidence for that?

What is a fact is that the Cuban Communist party collaborated with the US-backed Batista dictatorship. Another example of foolish Communist alliances to go with their ones with Saddam's party and also the Chinese nationalists plus Primo De Rivera, the proto-fascist 1920s dictator of Spain.

To side with one fascist dictatorship might be seen as an accident, to side with two seems like carelessness grin

Oops!

phoenixd7
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Jul 22 2006 14:35

No one can truely know the ins and outs of the workings of such states of affairs, we can only speak our minds, and of course, what we think we know. Which isn't to say either, that the "news" is also bullshit, but when those papers and statisitcs and facts are produced by the American government (especially in anything in that area), always look twice.

A note on evidence of Anarchists backstabbing Castro (not literally), the actions of a couple of greedy sons of bitches really doesn't speak for the whole Anarchist movement, afterall it only takes a few assholes to sink a ship bound for glory, the CIA are masters of finding those assholes through modern histroy, anyone remember a guy in a turban with a beard, liked his military jackets? Oh, what was his name......?

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 22 2006 15:26
phoenixd7 wrote:
A note on evidence of Anarchists backstabbing Castro (not literally), the actions of a couple of greedy sons of bitches really doesn't speak for the whole Anarchist movement, afterall it only takes a few assholes to sink a ship bound for glory, the CIA are masters of finding those assholes through modern histroy, anyone remember a guy in a turban with a beard, liked his military jackets? Oh, what was his name......?

But first you have to show us that there is some connection - however tenuous - between the USA/CIA and the Cuban anarchists.

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Jul 22 2006 17:39

Every anarcho-communist would love to see Castro stabbed in the back — literally — along with Hugo Chávez, Nelson Mandela, Jerry Adams, Ken Livingston, George Galloway etc.

red star

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Jul 22 2006 18:19

You can't stab a social relationship

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Refused
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Jul 22 2006 19:24

At least not without a matching trenchcoat and fedora. Ché couldn't pull off a fedora so he went with the beret. Numpty.

phoenixd7
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Jul 27 2006 12:12

<p>Well, first of all I think Che would&#39;ve looked just fine in a fedora. Then again, he did make the beret a symbol of the resistance, just as Al Capone made his fedora work for him... or was that a homberg? Hats are of little consequence... or are they?</p><p>Oh I just love editting this.</p><p>Okay, so here&#39;s the thing, why would a movement want to &quot;stab in the back&quot; what few figureheads it has? Surely thats just ridiculous. Although Ken Livingston and Jerry Adams I agree should deserve a meat cleaver suprise, but why would you all hate these other guys? Maybe the reason people are scared of taking any serious action is because they&#39;re afraid of some nut saying the same thing about them, subconciously? Well anyway, maybe a little trust is needed in these people. Fair enough, Castro hasn&#39;t done much lately, but is that any reason for revolutionary anarchists to want to &quot;whack&quot; him? I don&#39;t think so.</p><p>Well, that&#39;s all I have to say on the matter, except for this, respect. That&#39;s what this world is lacking, and respect for the right (left in this case) people too. </p>

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Serge Forward
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Jul 27 2006 13:56

Phoenix, how many times do we have to say it?  Listen to what people on here are saying and try and learn something about your subject matter.  If you had even a tiny bit of awareness, you&#39;d know that singing the praises of Guevara, Castro, Stalin, Lenin, etc, on an anarcho-communist forum is really not the way to make friends and influence people.  Smearing Cuban anarchists as stooges of the CIA isn&#39;t going to help you either.  Look, we are the enemies of your marxist-leninist heroes, and their ideas and practice.  There is a lot of bitter history here pal, and some of our comrades who suffered at the hands of these arseholes are still around to tell the tale.  So wise up or shut up.

phoenixd7
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Jul 31 2006 14:33

Serge back.
I mean no offence to anyones beliefs, i'm merely stating a possibility that the CIA infiltrated the Cubans, can you prove me wrong is the question. I'm certianly no Leninist either, I wonder what made you think that... Anyhow, because you seem to hate it when I repeat myself, simply refer to the above post when I was talking about heroes. After all, where are the heroes of today?

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 31 2006 14:40
phoenixd7 wrote:
i'm merely stating a possibility that the CIA infiltrated the Cubans, can you prove me wrong is the question.

you are george bush and i claim my £5.

Seriously, if you're making the claim then find some evidence, or i'll just 'raise the possibility' of something right back at ya - you can't prove a negative.

On the heroes point - well, who needs 'em for starters. But anyhow 'heroes' are born of struggles, they don't just descend and show us The Way.

phoenixd7
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Jul 31 2006 15:37

You saw straight through that fallacy and into my monkeyfeatures didn't ya Joey?
Listen up comrades, in this world there are no certianties about anything, currently nothing can be considered 100% true as the 'corperation' have their claws dug deep into every pie in the world. I'm not saying for a second that every Cuban anarchist is a member of the CIA at all, and that was just a thought of mine that maybe one of them was a CIA infiltrator placed their either originally or as a turncoat to stir up trouble in an otherwise solid brotherhood, from what i've heard. It has happened before, and proof isn't really required (although i'm fairly certian that if you dug deep into the files and previous reports ((even by the media)) you'll find a couple of cubans who were either arrested and freed, or those who mysteriously have no background, other than a slight american accent and a hankering for mcdonalds), you just have to look at the black spots to see that something was wrong. This is usually correct in everything that the corperation despises, and particularly so during the cold war, where turncoats and rats were rife in the kitchen. You surely know to keep an open mind about everything, even if you feel you could trust it, and actually, if you look for deception you can usually find it.
I was told a while back to "kill my heroes", and I really thought that was a ridiculous statement. These people, Guevara for one(as he seems to be the most controversial here) are the ones who people look up to and respect during the times of conflict, and their words are heard decades after. Sure, they may have been hated by some, but loved by the majority (even though that is usually a red light right there). Aside from dolphins i've heard nothing bad that rings true about Guevara, and i'll repeat my main reason.
He was appointed a grand position in Cuba, he could have sat back on his lorels and made money on the blackmarket, enjoying a lavish lifestyle, but he chose not to. He said No, and journeyed off to Bolivia with a band of guerrillas to inspire revolution there, and in the end he took a bullet for his trouble. How can you desecrate the name of one who fought so bravely and died so honourably?
On the subject of Cuba, remember that the US considered that little country to be a serious threat to its interests, it being on their doorstep and well within the space for some kind of military action. If you were the US government, wouldn't you take every precaution to divide and conquer?
You owe me a fiver Joey.

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Jul 31 2006 18:34
phoenixd7 wrote:
These people, Guevara for one(as he seems to be the most controversial here) are the ones who people look up to and respect during the times of conflict, and their words are heard decades after. Sure, they may have been hated by some, but loved by the majority (even though that is usually a red light right there). Aside from dolphins i've heard nothing bad that rings true about Guevara, and i'll repeat my main reason.

I think it's time for the Makhno "STFU" picture.