The AF in Ireland

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aswad
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Nov 3 2006 21:00

Thanks for posting this, Terry, let's hope some people will calm down.

As some food for thinking: two of the federations in IFA do not accept members according to their passport, but to their native language, like French speaking FA and Forum of Grrman speaking Anarchists. Both federations therefore may accept e.g. members from Switzerland, depending on their language. I know that French FA at least used to organize anarchists in the French speaking parts of Belgium, and FdA currently has members from Switzerland.

As an aside, if FA Britain organized along these lines, I'd gladly join. Alright, so that's perhaps a good reason not to change that...grin:

Terry
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Nov 3 2006 21:27

We are one week away from an international day of action, the internet connection in our office is down (coincendental with increased police presence and resumption of construction work), there is an important meeting tommorow and here I am stupid enough to respond to revol on a libcom thread.

"no offence Terry but considering there is no other AF presence in Ireland I fail to see how they are anymore relevant than Organise!."

(1) The AF have a green anaylsis and a track record of green activism.

(2) The campaign I'm involved in involves both Britain and Ireland (see meeting above for instance)

(3) I can learn from people in the AF.

(nice to see revol's new found interest in national borders!)

"What was the point in the merger if tyou continued to see yourself as a full AF member?"

- You need to discuss this burning question of the day !?!?! within Organise! I was informed members of the AF within Organise! would remain members of the AF. If there is some confusion around this its origin does not lie with me.

The fact that what a person living what is it seven hours drive away from you prefers to be involved in an organisation a slightly different shade than yours, and finds that useful, should be of such great importance to you is not a shining advertisment for the relevance of yourself, your group or these forums. I would urge the more sensible members of Organise! to find someway of getting you to desist from these antics on libcom.

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Serge Forward
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Nov 4 2006 09:34

Frankly, this thread has been appalling, full of uncomradely sniping and attempts to make a big issue out of what is an obvious non-issue. Revolutionary anarchism is not some kind of internet game - scoring points off other organisations besides your own and making a big deal out of imagined slights can only be damaging to us all.

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Tacks
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Nov 4 2006 12:16

I'm not so sure serge.
I agree it might look like an all comers barny to an outsider, but everyone who this argument concerns can identify it really only has one instigator.

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Tacks
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Nov 4 2006 12:32
revol68 wrote:
Tacks wrote:
I'm not so sure serge.
I agree it might look like an all comers barny to an outsider, but everyone who this argument concerns can identify it really only has one instigator.

well it doesn't concern you.

yes mate, i think it does. I have contacts in Irish groups and i am a member of the AF; therefore not only do i have the power to affect policy decisions made at conference, i also have an interest in the area.

glad i could clear that up for you mate.
smile

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Tacks
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Nov 4 2006 12:48

hahaha you are so cute.

brb babes x x

knightrose
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Nov 4 2006 12:50

Equally though revol, I don't really think it's such a huge issue either. I'd presume that most people in the north would be attracted to Organise. It's unlikely they'd really want to join the AF. On the other hand, and I'm NOT saying this to recruit to the AF, there are differences between us and you, so it's not certain that someone would want to join Organise. Surely, if we were identical then we'd be in the same organisation - if not the AF, then the IFA?
What you have spotted is that the AF needs to discuss this and come up with an agreed position.

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madashell
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Nov 4 2006 14:50

Revol, I really don't see why it matters, the AF having one member in Ireland doesn't negate the work that you guys have done to form a pretty bloody good anarchist group.

I'm increasingly reminded of that article I read about political organisations acting like gangs competing for new members sad

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madashell
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Nov 4 2006 15:02
Tacks wrote:
I'm not so sure serge.
I agree it might look like an all comers barny to an outsider, but everyone who this argument concerns can identify it really only has one instigator.

To be fair, I don't think it helps that a few of us in the AF weren't at all clear on what the AF's role in Ireland is.

Sorry if I've caused any confusion, though I really don't think it matters what organisation people are in, does it really matter if Terry is in Organise, WSM or the AF? As long as everybody in an area can work together on stuff, I couldn't give a shit, personally.

enelpozo
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Nov 4 2006 16:26
revol68 wrote:
rather the issue is that the ASF and AF worked extremely close together in the past and from this the decision was to disband both groups into Organise!, and this revelation seems to have made that whole process pointless.

How? Are ex-members of the AF and ASF still working together? Or have they split because there's one AFer left in Ireland who isn't in Organise?

And you said earlier: "I meant it doesn't concern you in that you know fuck all about it, the background or the reasons why people in Organise! might just be a tad pished off."
Is this really an issue that Organise as a group are really really deeply annoyed about, or is it just you?

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Devrim
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Nov 4 2006 19:07

I have just read through this, and while I am as anti Revol swearing at me as anybody else, he is actually right on this issue.

I think that the people in the AF who are just dismissing it as him talking sectarian rubbish haven't thought through what they are saying.

If you made an agreement it should be an agreement.

I presume that the agreement was trying to work towards a united approach. In my opinion completely the opposite of sectarianism. If the AF don't understand what agreements they have made, then maybe there is a problem.

The thing there about 'green' concerns is complete rubbish.
I am sure that the people in 'Organise' have a concern about the environment too. They have a class struggle perspective. Yes, of course the environment is important, but that doesn't mean that we should join into campaigns about it. Surely the communist project is based around workers' struggle.

Devrim

Bobby
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Nov 4 2006 20:25

Revol, for fuck sake knock it on the head. We will sort this out in other ways.

knightrose
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Nov 4 2006 20:56

answer to Devrim, the struggle in Rossport is a workers struggle

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Devrim
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Nov 5 2006 09:27
knightrose wrote:
answer to Devrim, the struggle in Rossport is a workers struggle

I have no idea what the the Rossport struggle is. My point relates to this:

Terry wrote:
(1) The AF have a green anaylsis and a track record of green activism.

I can't see how groups such as the AF, and Organise could have completely different politics on the environment. Which suggests to me that either Organise are real hard-line unreconstructed workerists, or the AF are making concessions to single issue green politics.

Devrim

knightrose
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Nov 5 2006 11:06

Or that the AF examine so-called green struggles from a class basis.

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Devrim
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Nov 5 2006 13:12
knightrose wrote:
Or that the AF examine so-called green struggles from a class basis.

And are you therefore suggesting that Organise don't?

Devrim

knightrose
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Nov 5 2006 13:53

No I'm not. I'm just explaining why we often involve ourselves in 'green' issues.

Bobby
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Nov 5 2006 15:58

Well, anyone from Organise! on these boards writes on a personal capacity, and revols comments definitely do not reflect the views of everyone within Organise!

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georgestapleton
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Nov 5 2006 19:30

This thread is brilliant. I'm lost for words.

But can we make sure this thread is saved - it's absolutely hilarious.

knightrose
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Nov 5 2006 20:39
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I wouldn't be soo smug, afterall it's not like the AF and Organise! are going to fall out, ...... If anything it's the closeness of peoples politics that makes the whole thing baffling.

Hopefully not. Myabe it'll lead to a bit of thinking about things. We, in the AF, certainly need to talk about all this at our next conference - in the meantime, I'm getting slaughtered on our internal list - and we need to talk properly to you guys in Organise. My problem is that I sometimes forget these forums are open to all.

Meanwhile, just back from another Rossport meeting, this time In Bradford. Around 30 at that one. We suggested we should talk about having a GB Shell to Sea network.

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AndrewF
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Nov 7 2006 16:31
revol68 wrote:
afterall it's not like the AF and Organise! are going to fall out, start backing candidates in union elections..

The thread itself is a car crash but seeing as he is trolling here also I'll repeat what I said elsewhere

Yeah you can still troll about this but you seem unable to discuss it seriously - you have yet to reply to the thread on 'Elections in the unions' I started on this back in March http://libcom.org/node/6599

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georgestapleton
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Nov 7 2006 23:08

Well if that was a direct attack on me and not the WSM. I really don't see where you are coming from. I've never backed candidates in union elections. And I wasn't in the WSM when one or two of our members actively backed Des Derwin, and we carried one article in one issue of Workers Solidarity, around 3 years ago.

Our position on the unions is in our position paper on the unions and no where else.

Personally I think that backing Des Derwin contradicted our our position paper and if someone advocated doing it again, I'd opposse them on that basis.

As for being soft on nationalism, I don't know what you are refering to. But seeing as I've been told I'm soft on nationalism on libcom by Devrim and the ICC, I figure fair enough seeing as pointing out that the PLO of the 70s is not the same as the NSDAP of the 30s in their eyes is being soft on nationalism. Although it is true they were both nationalist. roll eyes Anyway, I'm not going to waste more of my time trying to prove my anti-nationalist credentials. I've never been accussed of being soft on nationalism by anyone who wasn't anarchist, and that's good enough for me.

And if it was a dig at the WSM, I really don't think our poisition papers are soft on nationalism. And our position on nationalism is in our position papers and no where else.