Crimethinc [+Scottish Nationalism and Forum Etiquette]

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Toxictears
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Feb 28 2005 03:08
Crimethinc [+Scottish Nationalism and Forum Etiquette]

Why does everyone hate it/them? confused

ftony
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Feb 28 2005 12:33

WTF is it/them??

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Jacques Roux
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Feb 28 2005 12:34

crimethinc.com/.info/.net/.org

phoebe
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Feb 28 2005 13:40

Because they push the idea that a lifestyle which is pretty much unavailable to anyone but a number of middle class arseholes where a lot of the time they don't ever end up doing anything useful towards building community solidarity and whatever resistance to capitalism they provide is minimal anyway (living on discarded scraps probably helps support capitalism in removing waste produce to the same degree that shoplifting damages capitalism and either way they're such minimal relationships with capitalism that it doesn't matter anyway).

JoeBlack
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Feb 28 2005 16:38

Might it not be interesting to take some of these argument to them at http://www.crimethinc.info/shop/ rather than repeating them to each other in a self congratulatory manner. I worry about the amount of time people spend posting here as opposed to sites like indymedia and even crimethinc where it might do more good and be a good bit more challenging.

JoeBlack
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Feb 28 2005 16:57
revol68 wrote:
joe indymedia is a fucking joke, no serious debate can go on cause there is a complete lack of common ground not to mention the insane amount of weirdos who post on it. .

You see this is what worries me. Why would we only want to talk to people who are not 'weirdos' and with whom we already have 'common ground'. Even if say 50% of society were libertarians this would be nuts, when its 0.01% I really don't get it.

revol68 wrote:
As for Crimethinc well why would we wish to engage with a bunch of middle class kids in the states? Surely it's more important to develop our own ideas

Possibly its more important to 'develop our own ideas' but I was thinking more of the bored troll festing that goes on at length here. That sort of energy might be better applied elsewhere which would have the added benefit of moving this board on from being a really terrible in joke that gets endlessly repeated.

I'm also not sure of your use of 'middle class' above - its appears to be just the usual lefty insult use of the term to mean 'some one/group I don't like'. Kids is probably more accurate as what seems to attract people is being disaffected teens/early 20's.

revol68 wrote:
Debating with crimethinc woulld be pointless, it's not like they have anything of worth to offer. You might as well go and debate on a punk rock site.

Debating on a punk rock site might be worthwhile if there were large numbers of people on it with a new found interest in 'anarchism' and 'revolutionary politics'.

Mike Harman
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Feb 28 2005 17:10
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You see this is what worries me. Why would we only want to talk to people who are not 'weirdos' and with whom we already have 'common ground'. Even if say 50% of society were libertarians this would be nuts, when its 0.01% I really don't get it.

Joe, I think it makes more sense to talk to people locally or in workplaces about our ideas than it does to go argue with American teenagers on crimethinc who may already have pretty encrusted views themselves. If crimethinc people come over here I'll engage with them, and I argue with lots of non-anarchos (but not necessarily weirdos) on urban, but part of the problem with lifestylist/moralist ideas like crimethinc is that they tend to become a kind of belief system, and I'd rather argue with non-political people in real life than try to deal with that kind of mindset constantly.

Mike Harman
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Feb 28 2005 17:10

plus I spend too much time on bulletin boards as it is, I don't want another one to deal with.

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AndrewF
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Feb 28 2005 18:44
revol68 wrote:
Joe it seems you see anarchism as being about convincing people to embrace an abstract political ideal and then setting about fighting for it, rather than about developing the communist/anarchist tendecies within struggles.

Thats a ridiculous interpretation of what I just wrote, you joined the SWP or something? You know who I am and you must have a good idea of what we do. Why post such a daft strawman argument?

As to sooner 'talking to your workmates'. Also a strawman as I was obviously suggesting using some of time spent nattering online here with nattering online elsewhere.

Anarchism isn't just about local organising, its also a set of ideas that has a global significance. The internet is useful precisely because it means you can natter with people other than those on the other side of your garden fence or office partition.

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gav
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Feb 28 2005 18:46
revol68 wrote:
joe indymedia is a fucking joke, no serious debate can go on cause there is a complete lack of common ground not to mention the insane amount of weirdos who post on it.

it looks like wayne disagrees with your sentiments revol, look at the contributions he has been making to indymedia lately:

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/02/305896.html

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european tour 2005-2008

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Electronic soundscapes,

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in an Open Public Dialogue

Mike Harman
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Feb 28 2005 18:52

JoeBlack, to be honest it could maybe be fun to go over to crimethinc and talk some sense into them. I had trouble getting past the fact they use 'cyberia' to describe their forums, and haven't had a look. I spent a lot of time arguing politics with American jazz fans on another BBS before I came here, but it's often like knocking your head against a brick wall. I reckon we'd win an enrager/crimthinc board war hands down if that's what you're suggesting. wink

Mike Harman
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Feb 28 2005 18:54

I see nosos is trolling quite well there already.

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gav
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Feb 28 2005 19:10
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Hi everybody.

The following is a text about a day of discussion, planning, plotting and chilling that we are putting on in Manchester in under a months time. It has been loads of work to get it together so it would be nice to think some people will bother to travel to something that isn't in London... Wont be holding my breth but...

Thanks,

Doogle

***********************************

Beyond the Future

A carnival of resistance and revolution

January 8th 2005, Venue to be confirmed

As part of the build up to the G8 summit due to be held in Gleneagles, Scotland, from 6th-8th July 2005, Manchester is hosting a full day of discussion, skill sharing, networking and information spreading. Aimed at drawing together diverse strands and autonomous currents within the movement of movements, Beyond the future values the heterogeneity of struggles and adopts a pluralistic approach that celebrates the diversity of grassroots campaigns.

Beyond the future is about reaching out to the wider community and breaking out of the ghetto, it’s about a coming together of rebels, activists, youth, squatters, the precarious, the disobedient, the disaffected, the disempowered, the disordinate and the dismembered. In every generation there are those who refuse, those who resist, those who carry the seed of a new world in their hearts. We will be making links and tearing down fences, taking our dreams for reality and demanding the impossible. A fair trade café will run throughout the day.

Beyond the last event we organised needs you! It can only work with your participation. There are no spectators and no performers. We need volunteers to skip food, chop veg, help with technical stuff and most of all to provide your enthusiasm and uncritical participation.

Key themes are- Dissent the G8! Media Hacklabs, Precarity, Social centres, subversive transgression, info-hubs & subvertising.

“All of this activity needs a new form of organisation. I personally think that Anarcho-Green is our output and destination. I think that now that the cold war is officially over on the European continent, we can merge Libertarian, anti-racist and Transgender social activism together to create new radical identities that can bring Eastern European and Western brothers and sisters into a new political project capable of opposing fascist Bushism. I mean, this is the task at hand and social conflict is spiralling. Others possibilities are, of course, the peace movement, the open source information movement, the alternative global fair-exchange movement etc. But we need to pose ourselves the question of power and the institutional interface. This is vital at this stage.” Alex Foti, Chainworkers.

Full Programme-

Room 1

9.00-11.00 - Nationalism and Colonization - A critique of the classic anarchist stance on nationalism and an exploration of what it means to be colonized, to have one’s language, culture and expressions of self smothered, oppressed and obliterated and what this means in the Scottish context for our politics and our organisation (Nick - Glasgow Autonomous Project)

11.00-13.00 - Breaking borders, transgressive migration and transcendental subversion - “If Seattle really marks a transition to a new kind of politics - a participatory politics, a biopolitics if you like then the future lies in developing forms of self-management of conflicts federating themselves across wider political spaces - from the regional to the transcontinental” - Alex Foti, Chainworkers

13.00-14.00 - Pagan magick, Eastern mysticism and the liberating power of dance.

14.00-18.00 - Autnomous self-managed art, culture performance space for producing agit-prop, puppet piracy, clown insurrection armies and radical subvertising hacktic art transgression culture jamming insurrection

Room 2

All day- Dissent Network, G8 Briefing

9.00-11.0 Why the G8 is unfair and undemocratic.

11.00 - 13.00 - Training for action. NVDA skills and more. Workshop presented by two guys who were in Seattle.

13.00-14.00 - Lunch break.

14.00-14.15 - CANCELLED - A critical appraisal of the efficacy of protesting leaders’ summits, a critique of protest activism as abstracted from everyday situations where capitalism and oppression are experienced and can be transformed, an assertion that this never ending series of (less and less) spectaculars are a substitutionist disengagement from communism as an ongoing working class response to capital, etc. - CANCELLED

14.15-14.30 - Break for wacky, spontaneous, surrealist art intervention by two Italian indymedia activists.

14.30-16.30 - Protest Strategy and action initiatives -Tactical frivolity or looking scary? Samba or retro funk?

16.30-18.00 - prisoner support - How are we going to support people whose lives are irreversibly effected by the horrors of incarceration after it hopefully all kicks off? Workshop presented by anybody who was jailed for Mayday 2000 who is still talking to us.

18.00-18.30 - Concluding plenary summarising the days discussions. We will agree that we need to disrupt the summit with a big protest with local focus where everybody respects others’ tactics and the local environment and supports the prisoners afterwards. And someone will say we mustn’t forget women’s issues.

Room 3

9.00-11.00 - Trees, why we luv em! And why I shag my sister! No compromise in defence of the Earth! South Wales Earth First!

11.00 - 13.00 - Precarity Badminton - A panel of people lacking any obvious qualification will discuss precarity and what it means to be precarious. How do we respond to precaritisation and the neo-liberalist agenda of precaratism? How can media-hackers and labour activists support precarious workers from the outside? What have I got stuck up my arse? The panel will be a diverse collection of activists and writers united only by a regressively reformist analysis and a lack of involvement with any workers’ struggle.

13.00-15.00 - The cultural intersections of precarity and patriarchy - Another two hours discussing existential precarity and social exclusion with regard to flexiculity and radical subjectivism and how it relates to recycled situationist discourse.

15.00-16.00 - Precarity, precocity and primitivism - Focus on precarity and the construction industry, especially looking at the cultural intersections of scaffolding work and info-hubs and how they can help us to unlearn language.

16.00-18.00 - Precarity and marmite - Exploring the admittedly tenuous links between the Animal Liberation Front and the sans-papier movement in France.

Room 4

9.00-11.00 - Toffbusters - Making the lives of the CLASS ENEMY precarious!!!!

11.00-13.00 - Occupied social centres - Their role in the community and tips for getting black kids to organise hip hop nights.

13.00-18.00 - Plenary from the global south - Beyond the last event we organised takes its lead from social movements in the global South and has invited self-appointed spokespeople to represent various politically indefensible groups of poor people who don’t like America in an attempt to draw links between our ghettoised white, middle class protest movement and their wacky ideas. The list of people prepared to talk to us in return for a one way plane ticket includes-

- Al jaq jihad - A radical group of Sudanese Islamicist anarchists that may or may not exist.

- Waia Zi Chi Banzai Yenin Eeza!* - Tibetan Maoist movement (they told us they like trees)

- Revolutionary Popular Front of Landless Peasants and Dispossessed (County Cork)

*[Death to all by bamboo cane up arse!]

Also running throughout the day-

Cultural rebel cinemascope - old videos of Prague and Genoa. And maybe that desperate bollocks about ‘Bourganville’

Media Hacklab - Media HackLabs - autonomous technology zones, spaces for learning, for making your own media, for the sharing and developing of free and not-for-commercial-use technologies and software, for battling surveillance and alienation, for ongoing projects and for using new forms of communication in direct action.We regard hacking to be an attitude that isn't confined to information technology. Our way of being hackers is apparent in day-to-day life, even when we're not using computers. It reveals itself when we fight to change the things we don't like, such as force-fed misinformation, the use of expensive technologies that are not available to everyone, and having to accept information dispensed without any interactivity. The media hacklab will be running until Dave takes his laptop home.

All Day Creche - Provided by The Hakim Bey study group.

Squat party 8- till late. Venue to be announced. Bring own Ket.

Event supported by… South Wales Earth First! Class War Federation. Chainworkers (Italy). Al jaq jihad (Sudan), Waia Zi Chi Banzai Yenin Eeza! (Tibet), Revolutionary Popular Front of Landless Peasants and Dispossessed (Eire), MUPPETS (Movement of Unemployed and Precarious Puppeteers Effecting Transient Struggles), Reclaim Paedophilia, Toff Busters, Colchester Anarchist Group.

sovietpop
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Feb 28 2005 19:15
revol68 wrote:
no joe it's based on the amount of time and effort the WSM put into shite like the grassroots gathering (not to say organise didn't waste time in it), and it's increasing focus on activist stuff.

Ahh right what I took to be an annoying inaccurate jibe actually has some analysis behind it. Care to expand it out a bit - there may be the basis of a decent discussion there.

sovietpop
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Feb 28 2005 19:17

woops that was JoeBlack posting without checking to see what account was now logged in.

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AndrewF
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Feb 28 2005 19:37
revol68 wrote:
tho i have to warn you that my views on this aren't organises. .

Sure I won't hold organise responsible.

Seeing as this is beginners might be wise to start another thread in Organise?

xeirecorex
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Feb 28 2005 23:20

I think it's strange that crimethinc. is dismissed as an "ideology" as opposed to what they are - a publisher with a series of websites.

They turned more kids on to anarchism than most.

Mike Harman
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Feb 28 2005 23:40

If anarchism is voluntary street homelessness and dumpster diving I want nothing to do with it.

Nick Durie
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Mar 1 2005 10:43

It is very sad that two hundred years of socialist thought have culminated in some right-wing individualists proselytizing potential comrades into thinking that a drop-out lifestyle will fight back against the growing fascism in the USA .

It is hard to remain optimistic about the chances of communism when faced with that chilling reality.

Revol is in a sense correct tho - we have to stop talking to 'activists' and develop socialist and anarchist thought in already existing structures of society. what would achieve more - talking to crimethincers (?) in the US or trying to foster internal democracy and a socialist ethic within your local community centre.

I also think that the G8 spoof post was not at all funny and whichever individuals drew that up should be fucking ashamed of themselves. I have little time for G8-related campaigning, and have many criticisms of the highly undemocratic Dissent! federation but I don't think that these criticisms should be used be myself or others as a way of masturbating our egos and existing on the false pretense that somehow we have any real strategy for how to bring about communism. If we did then the workers' movement would not have been so lamentably crushed.

Our task as communists is clearly to resurrect the workers' movement in a superior form, but we must do this by our more visionary cadres leading the way for those who are less grounded, not by making crap quips or assuming that those involved in other activities don't actually agree with what you're saying. From my experience of speaking to people involved in the Dissent! federation many are fully aware of its limitations as a means of furthering the communist cause, and I personally don't think all of its activities are worthless, altho I have severe doubts about any organisation run by a clique of individuals who have private meetings unannounced to the rest of the organisation and arrogate the decisions they have made to the level of the rest of the federation. Nor can I condone the fact that the group has complete failed to establish a delegate structure.

Also the personal attack "9.00-11.00 - Nationalism and Colonization - A critique of the classic anarchist stance on nationalism and an exploration of what it means to be colonized, to have one’s language, culture and expressions of self smothered, oppressed and obliterated and what this means in the Scottish context for our politics and our organisation (Nick - Glasgow Autonomous Project)" is very lame; you can do better than that!

Go on call me 'a bourgeois nationalist fucktard'! Get it over with you clod(s), explain to me the 'essentially reactionary nature' of struggles to preserve the cultural identity of peoples in the face of rampant capitalism and cultural imperialism and lose the fucking argument. Do it in fucking Esperanto and I might even fail to laugh at your self-congratulatory, reactionary, bourgeois, pseudo-marxist bullshit.

Also there is no place for racist jokes like this:-

"- Waia Zi Chi Banzai Yenin Eeza!* - Tibetan Maoist movement (they told us they like trees)

*[Death to all by bamboo cane up arse!]"

Yes, hahahaha, those niggers in Tibet they make funny sounds and talk about bamboo up the bum, hahahaha. Reactionary arsehole.

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gav
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Mar 1 2005 11:15
Nick Durie wrote:
I have little time for G8-related campaigning

presumably because you feel we need to

Nick Durie wrote:
develop socialist and anarchist thought in already existing structures of society

why cant we take the piss out of shit activist politics? if some activist muppet thinks having a riot at the g8 is what anarchism is about, why shouldnt we respond and say (from waynes pisstake) "A critical appraisal of the efficacy of protesting leaders’ summits, a critique of protest activism as abstracted from everyday situations where capitalism and oppression are experienced and can be transformed, an assertion that this never ending series of (less and less) spectaculars are a substitutionist disengagement from communism as an ongoing working class response to capital"

as for this:

Quote:
9.00-11.00 - Nationalism and Colonization - A critique of the classic anarchist stance on nationalism and an exploration of what it means to be colonized, to have one’s language, culture and expressions of self smothered, oppressed and obliterated and what this means in the Scottish context for our politics and our organisation (Nick - Glasgow Autonomous Project)

well you arent being misrepresented are you, this is the exact text put in the timetable for the glasgow anarchist day school. out of interest, where does scotland start, because i was in newcastle a few weeks ago, and hadrians wall runs parallel to the tyne, so is everywhere north of the tyne scotland, or is it the current border. from my point of view, it seems many groups have had their language, culture and expressions attacked, and some of theses groups are in england eek capital likes uniformity and hence, one part of the current trend of globalisation has been efforts to homogenise cultures in order to maximise profits. and asking people to identify with a nation, and not as a class is a shit tactic, and i have no problem with that being ridiculed.

and as for this:

Quote:
"- Waia Zi Chi Banzai Yenin Eeza!* - Tibetan Maoist movement (they told us they like trees)

*[Death to all by bamboo cane up arse!]"

trying to misrepresent this joke about maoists, as a racist joke, is a bit fucking low.

phoebe
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Mar 1 2005 13:32
Jack wrote:
Nick Durie wrote:
It is very sad that two hundred years of socialist thought have culminated in some right-wing individualists proselytizing potential comrades into thinking that a drop-out lifestyle will fight back against the growing fascism in the USA .

I thought this was okay, until he refered to the US as fascist. Twat. I suppose Bush is just like Hitler? roll eyes

He said growing fascism in the USA, ie suggesting that the fascist movement in the USA is growing, not that USA is fascist.

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Steven.
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Mar 1 2005 13:43
phoebe wrote:
He said growing fascism in the USA, ie suggesting that the fascist movement in the USA is growing, not that USA is fascist.

Er well not wanting to put words in his mouth, Nick has alluded many times here to the actual US government/system of governance become fascist - I'm pretty sure he didn't mean the fascist movement was growing.

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Rob Ray
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Mar 1 2005 14:19

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...............

Who. Fucking. Cares.

Christ what is it about every 2nd post devolving into one big slagging match at the moment? Ffs this is supposed to be a board to organise and come up with alternatives etc, not 'let's waste days arguing the toss'. It's not like many people ever bother reading this, there's what, 40 regular posters? Maybe ten times that many readers? Out of a population of 60-70million? This board can't fulfill the function of laying out our sensibleness to the mass public.

It is of more use when acting as a debating board for our own new ideas, or for debating how to implement established ones. Bollocking on about how crap Crimethinc, or the WOMBLES, or Amnesty, or CAG or anyone else is just shows how far we have to go to get any fucking organising done at all.

JoeBlack
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Mar 1 2005 14:44
Jack wrote:
Anyway, CAG are the only group who use enrager to organise, so we have the RIGHT to tell everyone else to suck our balls.

It's a pity you don't take yourselves seriously.

Really.

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Rob Ray
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Mar 1 2005 14:47

Having said that, one of the reasons people don't use these boards to organise is because you keep slagging them off.

Hell my brother has impeccable politics, he just doesn't post here because it's fucking unpleasant and every time anyone says something even slightly different to the general consensus it's taken as evidence that they are entirely useless and should be shunned until they take the hint and leave.

I've defended the rough and tumble of debate in these boards before now but frankly after the last few exchanges I'm beginning to wish I hadn't, it's getting to the point where screaming wankers following what they think is the board politic outweigh the genuine debate.

JoeBlack
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Mar 1 2005 15:39
Jack wrote:
Yep, we don't take ourselves seriously at all. Right. We're just doing this for a laugh. Tosser.

I don't know you.

I've never met you.

I'm letting you know what impression reading your posts creates with me.

And your letting me know that this makes me a

Jack wrote:
Tosser.

As I said ...

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Rob Ray
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Mar 1 2005 15:44

Tbh I think you underestimate the degree in which your posting in the main forums affects the general feeling of people who come to these boards, which would include their conclusions when thinking about looking at or posting on reginal ones.

NB// and how do you know the other boards don't organise if you don't read them, huh? ahaha!

embarrassed

AnarchoAl
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Mar 1 2005 15:58

Nick's never advocated uniting along "national" as opposed to class lines, at least not since he's been an anarchist (most of the time I've known him). The fact that we need an internationalist proletarian revolution doesn't mean that Scotland's colonisation is irrelevant to our political activites here.

JoeBlack
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Mar 1 2005 16:16
Jack wrote:
Oh fuck off. You posted saying I don't take my politics seriously - based seemingly on the fact that I'm too abusive (which would generally suggest that if anything I'm taking them too seriously, but I suppose we have to take into account your stupidity), obviously I'm going to be fucking abusive towards you.

You see the problem here is your automatic reaction is to tell people to

Jack wrote:
Oh fuck off

or refer to there

Jack wrote:
stupidity

or even call them a

Jack wrote:
tosser

It's got nothing to do with them being a

Jack wrote:
individualists/hunt sabs/primmos/activists/womble

as I'm none of these things.

To make things worse when its pointed out that this might be a problem you reply

Jack wrote:
if my posts offend them enough that they're scared off the board, then we're better off without them

Knowing little else about you I might conclude that you reckon the key strategy for building an anarchist movement consists of grouping together people who like calling others names and like being called names themselves. I'd take a "individualists/hunt sabs/activists/womble" over that any day of the week (you can keep the primo).

This is anarchy as teenage angst, it stops and ends with 'fuck you I won't do what you tell me'. CrimeInc beats it hands down as at least it tries to politicise the angst.

The weird thing is reading your occasional serious post I see that's not where your coming from. So I ask why don't you take yourself seriously? It's not just you - its the whole fucking movement over there. It's a bit like if that old Goldman quote had actually read 'If I can't dance all the fucking time its not my revolution'.

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Rob Ray
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Mar 1 2005 16:23
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To be honest, if my posts offend them enough that they're scared off the board, then we're better off without them.

I don't think so, tbh you need to give people a chance to come around to your way of thinking. I know patience is hard to do (I don't manage it as often as I should) but it is far more likely to draw people in. I've never been a dumbass trot and didn't go through the whole 'activism for the sake of it' stuff, so perhaps I'm less jaded because of that (or just smarter tongue) but does seem to me that this complete lack of tolerance is doing us no favours in recruiting.

Quote:
we've won the argument so many fucking times that it's just boring

For you, but not necessarily for all those people who have only recently got involved.

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pingtiao
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Mar 1 2005 16:24

Jack, you see on the forum intro page where it says "Intoductory Thought *No Flaming*"? What the fuck do you think that means? Why do you think we wrote that?

You and revol68- stop it or i'll temp ban both of you.

Have some fucking respect for other posters.