Anti-education cuts demo - 10 November

Flaneur I never said that AFED or Solfed should be or are "big tent, come one come all" organisations obviously they have principles and aims. My point was that Anarchists are gonna disagree on issues like tactics but it does not mean that those anarchists should divide themselves along those lines. For example it's often said that AFED and Solfed should merge but usually people mention that there are differences in the two organisations that would make it difficult for a complete merger, so there are things they disagree on but they agree enough to work together when it's appropriate, members don't say that AFED and Solfed groups should not march together because of some disagreements surrounding syndicalism. The point is they agree on much more then they disagree on and what they disagree on is not so important that it justify's complete disassociation or alienation.

I think I worded the "forms of struggle" part wrong, I recognise that black bloc is just a tactic but I also think that the other things I mentioned like strikes and occupations are also just tactics in what is a "struggle". Occupation for example is not a struggle in and of itself but rather a tactic used in a struggle. Since you could agree with somebody that you should not get a pay cut but disagree over whether or not to occupy your place of work

As for whether I think Black bloc is effective in all situations, I thought I made it clear that I don't since I'm not going to be taking part in it at this demo and I said "in certain situations".

My point was, this you're an anarchist, I'm an anarchist so we're okay thing you're pushing is bollocks. The difference between us and Solfed is fairly minute anyway (in my opinion) but it's virtually null when compared to the mutualists, syntheists, individualists and the like. I personally wouldn't give any of them the time of day, even if they're all anarchists, man.

But you understand that occupations and strikes are signs of a struggle where as black blocs rarely are (and we're having to go back some time for the instances where they were)? Certainly won't be next week.

So do you agree that it's ridiculous that a black bloc has been called, when it's going to be fruitless, there's already a anarchist bloc and they're even meeting at the same time at the same spot?

Flaneur thanks for being respectful.

I do agree with you that this black bloc is going to be fruitless yes, however I think it might be unfair to blame who ever organised it for creating two blocs because as I said it was organised before the Radical Workers one that I wan't to be a part of.

Your right to say that this I'm a anarchist your a anarchist so we're okay is bollocks but that's not what I'm pushing. I wouldn't mix with individaulists or mutualists either because there are very large and unescapable differences in our beliefs but I would and do mix with Syndicalists even though I'm a Anarcho-communist because although we may differ slighlty serious division is not really productive.

If a Anarcho-communist doesn't agree with the black bloc tactic and they meet another anarcho-communist who does is it productive for them not to associate or work with that person just because of one tactic? I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "signs of struggles" couldn't the entire demo be considered a sign of struggle?

Chances are, if you've an 'anarcho-communist' who really thinks the black bloc is an effective and worthwhile thing to be pushing, what they self proclaim themselves isn't marrying up with what they profess to believe. Since it's not about the tactic itself, rather the conclusions that are obvious from it. Where does a belief in strengthing the class or the means to go about it enter into exclusive black tie individualism? The only inspiration on offer would be merely the satorial kind.

A struggle doesn't consist of a few hours up London.

To be fair I don't really think your answering my question, if you met another anarchist on the demo who obviously shared the same beliefs surrounding power as you did but also shared your economic beliefs and so on, but happened to be a supporter of black bloc tactics in certain situations how would you treat that person? Would you say that they were just stuipid middle class 'kids' like some have said or would you act differently because the conversation was not occuring over a internet forum?

I know a struggle does not consist of a few hours in london, surely the struggle is continous until there is a revolution? But you used the phrase "signs of struggle" which could be just about anything.

I answered it pretty clearly. In layman's terms, I'd think someone was a bit of a wally if they were suggesting the black bloc was a good idea during the ebb of class struggle. I would probably put it to the person in the best possible way.

Well, no. In the here and now, we have struggles to be won. Winning them doesn't mean revolution, it means gains. At the very least, struggle has to be built up from something tangible, gain momentum over a period of time and be slightly more everlasting than a day. Like you wouldn't compare equally a dispute in the workplace or community that has been building for weeks, even months, with people who actually have something to do with each other on a regular basis with a demo, would you?

No I would place more importance on the dispute in the workplace or community because ultimately I think people are more likely to succeed in having what ever the desired effect is in the community or workplace then they are at a demonstration.

More likely to or actually capable of doing so? Demostrations, regardless of the desired effect, never actually change things whilst struggle can. This is the key difference.

No demonstrations don't have a direct effect on anything but they do have effects on how many people are aware of whatever it is about, how confident people feel about taking action in their own communitys and so on and I do think that these factors can have direct effects on the outcome of struggle.

Yes a strike or occupation or whatever is going to have a direct effect but this is less likely to happen in the first place if people feel that they are alone in thinking that what is happening is wrong.

Hey guess what guys, we will be marching with people of sorts of politics and anyone who wants will join the radical blocs (of course if they are obvivously dodgy removed) All this 'I won't march' with and 'we should march together' is neither here or there in reality. Moaning about it on the internet is pretty pointless in any practical sense (but it does pass the time). If we want to change the culture and perception of others we need to be organised and prepared to put the work in. Here as it has been pointed out the 'black bloc' was already 'called' for (well a FB page set up) before SolFed and AF had agreed to theirs. Due to the democratic practices of these organisations this will always necessarily be so, unless some protocol of provisional agreement for marches is agreed upon.

action_now:
I thought there was quite a sensible debate with both people making decent points.
Nothing explicitly says it was organised by an insurrectionist, but the tactic of a black block might suggest it, given it's a confrontational tactic pretty divorced from actual struggle and relies on affinity groups to work. Might not be. Maybe we'll find out tomorrow.

I didn't equate confrontation per se with insurrectionist anarchism, but with confrontation divorced from a struggle (I should've said a mass struggle). I think it's pretty self-evident that there is a difference between more isolated acts of violence (like a black block on a protest), and tactics not dissimilar to a black block that are part of some struggle like attacking scabs' vehicles or something. As Flaneur said earlier in this thread, a black bloc is a tactic, not a struggle in itself. At it's very best it could complement a struggle (which would be fought over wages, social wage, or whatever - i.e. something that working class people were fighting for themselves over, where a victory would improve their position).
Fair enough, my understanding of insurrectionist anarchism isn't all that. I thought that they advocated violent confrontation even if there was no mass movement, as something to inspire similar actions and build a movement that way, by example. That would make black bloc's quite an insurrectionist tactic. I take your point that they've been used by non-insurrectionist anarchists though, and definitely don't see affinity groups as necessarily insurrectionist. Don't want to derail this thread though, so set up a new thread if you want to educate me more about insurrectionist anarchism, cause it's true I don't know much at all.

Some people are smashing up some windows at millbank tower?

Police at Tory hq seem pretty outnumbered.

Guardian has live coverage: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2010/nov/10/demo-2010-student-protests-live

Sky has window smashing footage: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Thousands-Of-Students-Join-London-March-In-Protest-At-Rise-In-Tuition-Fees/Article/201011215798223?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15798223_Thousands_Of_Students_Join_London_March_In_Protest_At_Rise_In_Tuition_Fees_

Excerts:
Numbers are estimated at 50k instead of 24k due to last minute interest this week.
Bonfire outside millbank.
Windows properly smashed
Sit down protest outside westminster.
People left but then broke back in again. After this there were scuffles with police and some bloody noses on the police side, then the regular police are getting replaced with riot cops.
Clegg has cancelled an appearance at Oxford union next week.
Cable cancelled one earlier this month or last month at one day's notice.

LibDem HQ http://yfrog.com/gohyyj riot vans arrived a few seconds before protesters according to twitter.

bbc news 24 has it live.

Not for me 'Cannot play media. Sorry, this media is not available in your territory' and I haven't figured out an easy workaround yet.

Sorry forgot your in Japan. Someone is on the roof waving an anarchist flag around.

The NUS are condemming the violence/occupation.

that's their raison d'être

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11726822

For the geographically challenged like me (at least when trying to watch streaming bbc crap) lovely Tommy Ascaso posted a pic http://twitpic.com/35lrzn

oooh http://atdhe.net/watch-bbc-news.php

The media ain't showing live video anymore(on bbc24) because the NUS asked them not to focus on the violence. BBC news just commented that the hardcore who are causing the violence may be 'anarchists' and not students.

Maybe the cops are making a point about cuts to police budgets.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/asifkhan/5163666447/
some pics and video on this guy's stream.
People outside the lbi dems hq and MI5 HQ as well.

Looks more militant than I'd expected.

more stuff: http://london.indymedia.org/tumbles/promoted