Racist attacks

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Mystic
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Aug 1 2005 09:12
Racist attacks

Please explain to me why the police immediately treat this horrific white-on-black crime as a racially motivated attack?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4733895.stm

If anyone's been following the news, from the very beginning they've been describing the attackers as racists. And yet with a black-on-white crime like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4733097.stm

There's no trace of the police accusing the murderer of racism here.

The police are far too quick to play the racist card when it comes to whites killing blacks. What if it turns out the killer and his victim knew each other? After all, they appear to have come from the same area. And yet when a white man is killed by a black man he didn't know, there's not a whisper of that possibility. Making accusations of racist murder so quickly and blindly in one case is a dangerous game to play in a very finely balanced race situation in the wake of the terrorist attacks. And completely ignoring them in the other is a guaranteed way of alienating communities from each other.

Well done pigs.

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PaulMarsh
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Aug 1 2005 10:14

In the Merseyside case the man fled after racist abuse was shouted at him.

It did not take Sherlock Holmes to consider a racist motive when he was found dead virtually immediately afterwards.

In the case of the London murder, it may be raicst, it may not be. We shall see.

Mystic
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Aug 1 2005 11:07

Racist abuse isn't necessarily a mark of a racially motivated attack though. I just think it seems like they're too eager to make the accusation in one direction. Besides, it hampers the investigation. If it turns out to be true, then by all means apply the racist label. But it was only a few hours since the attack and after reports of racist abuse that we were being told the attack was racially motivated.

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wheresmyshoes
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Aug 1 2005 11:58

If they were shouting racist abuse at him and he turned up dead after running away from them. I would say it's pretty safe to say it was racially motivated. Not all white on black crime is; sometimes people are just bastards and don't care what colour skin you are.

And from the sounds of it, that's what happened to that poor guy on the bus, I could be wrong but he got stabbed for defending his girlfriend, which is pretty fucked.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Aug 1 2005 13:13
Mystic wrote:
Racist abuse isn't necessarily a mark of a racially motivated attack though.

confused confused

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Steven.
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Aug 1 2005 13:32

Mystic in this case it seems pretty clear - the guy had a white girlfriend. She and his mate legged it when a gang who had racially abused him/them came back and continued. They then killed him.

That chip thing's fucking awful. I've been in that situation, some black kids were at the back of the bus throwing chips about, my girlfriend at the time went and confronted them - I wouldn't. embarrassed I mean I stood beside her when she went but I didn't want to do it. It sucks being made to feel like that.

What kind of dick would stab someone over that? He's gonna spend 15 years in jail now. What a fucking idiot roll eyes

But I'd agree that making race crimes a different category to normal crimes is divisive generally yes.

Garner
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Aug 1 2005 14:52

Even if both attacks were racially motivated, which doesn't appear to be the case, there's a huge difference between white-on-black racism and black-on-white racism. You can't just ignore the fact that there's a huge power imbalance between the two races in question. Not that that excuses black-on-white racism or anything, but it's not equivalent to white-on-black racism - you shouldn't expect the two to be treated that same way.

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the button
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Aug 1 2005 15:03
John. wrote:
What kind of dick would stab someone over that? He's gonna spend 15 years in jail now. What a fucking idiot roll eyes

I think a lot of stuff that would have resulted in a punch-up in my day (*ahem*) now leads to stabbing/shooting, just 'cause people have weapons. Remember that kid near Oldham a few years back, who got shot for pushing in front of the 'wrong' person in a chippie?

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PaulMarsh
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Aug 1 2005 15:33
Garner wrote:
You can't just ignore the fact that there's a huge power imbalance between the two races in question. Not that that excuses black-on-white racism or anything, but it's not equivalent to white-on-black racism - you shouldn't expect the two to be treated that same way.

This is a bit too SWP style a statement for my liking, along the lines of the old leftie mantra "black people cannot be racist because they have no power to exercise"

It simply is not true, especially in inner-city London, nowadays.

I live in an area where white people are a minority, and where a good half of the people with day to day power over me (local government officials in particular) are actually from ethnic minorities.

At earlier times in my life I have had a black supervisor and an Asian landlord. Regardless of what I thought of them, they did have significant power over me.

Garner
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Aug 1 2005 15:58
PaulMarsh wrote:
This is a bit too SWP style a statement for my liking, along the lines of the old leftie mantra "black people cannot be racist because they have no power to exercise"

I wouldn't go so far as to say they can't be racist, and obviously some of them do have power.

But you can't simply ignore the oppression they've suffered historically (and still suffer) at the hands of the white european ruling class. We haven't been oppressed in a comparable way by any non-white ruling class. This means that their racism is a qualitatively different phenomenon. Not that it's excusable or anything, but it has different causes, and shouldn't be approached the same way as white-on-black racism.

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the button
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Aug 1 2005 16:03
Garner wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say they can't be racist, and obviously some of them do have power.

But you can't simply ignore the oppression they've suffered historically (and still suffer) at the hands of the white european ruling class. We haven't been oppressed in a comparable way by any non-white ruling class. This means that their racism is a qualitatively different phenomenon. Not that it's excusable or anything, but it has different causes, and shouldn't be approached the same way as white-on-black racism.

So when a black bloke calls my Mrs a white bitch (& it does happen, oh yes), is he being racist or sexist?

And is "black-man-on-white-woman" sexism (if that's what it is), qualitatively different to "white-man-on-white-woman" sexism?

confused

Garner
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Aug 1 2005 16:09
the button wrote:
So when a black bloke calls my Mrs a white bitch (& it does happen, oh yes), is he being racist or sexist?

Both. Unless it's all knowing and ironic in the classic revol style.

Quote:
And is "black-man-on-white-woman" sexism (if that's what it is), qualitatively different to "white-man-on-white-woman" sexism?

No, but woman-on-man sexism is different to man-on-woman sexism. At least until Jess sorts out our gender ratios, that is.

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the button
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Aug 1 2005 16:12
Garner wrote:
Both.

Ah yes. But. On this occasion, is it heirarchies of race or heirarchies of gender which are determinative in the last instance?

wink

Mystic
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Aug 1 2005 16:57
Lazlo_Woodbine wrote:
Mystic wrote:
Racist abuse isn't necessarily a mark of a racially motivated attack though.

confused confused

It's possible for a person to attack a person of a different colour skin for a reason unconnected to race and yet use racist abuse in the course of the attack. For example, if it turns out that the victim of this attack was going out with the murderer's ex-girlfriend. A racially motivated crime implies that the attack could have happened to anyone of that skin colour. The police were describing it as that before investigating whether the attacker knew his victim.

All right, I can definitely accept the likelihood of this being a racist attack. But why be so quick to say so in one case, and not in the other? The police think it makes them look like they're helping race relations, whereas they're just jumping to conclusions and giving a horrific tragedy political colouring.

Lazlo_Woodbine
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Aug 1 2005 17:04

Look, either way, it was clearly an attack committed by racists. If there was racist abuse shouted in the other case then I'd be equally quick to count that one as well.

Mystic -- do you think there is a problem in this country with racism and violence related to racism?

Mystic
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Aug 1 2005 17:09

Yes, of course.

Edit: What's got my hackles up here is the police casting themselves as the self-proclaimed protectors of black people. They don't even have a proper investigation before they splash the media with accusations of racism. As I said, this may well turn out to be a racially-motivated attack. But as yet we just don't know, and the behaviour of the police in conjunction with the media has been hypocritical at best.

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wheresmyshoes
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Aug 1 2005 17:32
Garner wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say they can't be racist, and obviously some of them do have power.

But you can't simply ignore the oppression they've suffered historically (and still suffer) at the hands of the white european ruling class. We haven't been oppressed in a comparable way by any non-white ruling class. This means that their racism is a qualitatively different phenomenon. Not that it's excusable or anything, but it has different causes, and shouldn't be approached the same way as white-on-black racism.

I personally don't agree with this. Racism is racism regardless of who's doing it.

Mike Harman
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Aug 1 2005 17:46
John. wrote:

That chip thing's fucking awful. I've been in that situation, some black kids were at the back of the bus throwing chips about, my girlfriend at the time went and confronted them - I wouldn't. embarrassed I mean I stood beside her when she went but I didn't want to do it. It sucks being made to feel like that.

What kind of dick would stab someone over that? He's gonna spend 15 years in jail now. What a fucking idiot roll eyes

But I'd agree that making race crimes a different category to normal crimes is divisive generally yes.

Exactly the same thing happened to me, except it was fried chicken. But then we ended up having a very strange chat with them downstairs after we'd nearly been fighting them. And then they came into a café 6 weeks later trying to get sponsorship for something they were doing for their church, they were a bit sheepish that time confused

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Steven.
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Aug 1 2005 17:57
Catch wrote:
Exactly the same thing happened to me, except it was fried chicken.

Fuckin ell talk about your racial stereotypes!

Quote:
I personally don't agree with this. Racism is racism regardless of who's doing it.

Shoes - yeah I think racism's racism, but I think white-on-"black" and black-on-white racisms are different due to various societal structures.

I'm not sure, being white, what bad things would ever happen to me because of my race. I suppose there'd be small chance of getting an anti-white racist attack, and maybe some jobs I'd be less likely to get if they were aimed primarily at minority ethnic groups (like in the police force, say). This is not a lot compared to say being black and being more likely to be a victim of crime, less likely to get almost any good job, more likely to be searched/arrested/convicted/imprisoned or diagnosed with serious mental illness or personality disorder etc.

Garner
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Aug 2 2005 11:18
Mystic wrote:
Edit: What's got my hackles up here is the police casting themselves as the self-proclaimed protectors of black people. They don't even have a proper investigation before they splash the media with accusations of racism. As I said, this may well turn out to be a racially-motivated attack. But as yet we just don't know, and the behaviour of the police in conjunction with the media has been hypocritical at best.

This I agree with. The police and media are hypocritical bastards.

But I don't think it's helpful to compare the two attacks. It's uncomfortably close to BNP tactics.

RedCelt
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Aug 2 2005 11:48
wheresmyshoes wrote:
Garner wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as to say they can't be racist, and obviously some of them do have power.

But you can't simply ignore the oppression they've suffered historically (and still suffer) at the hands of the white european ruling class. We haven't been oppressed in a comparable way by any non-white ruling class. This means that their racism is a qualitatively different phenomenon. Not that it's excusable or anything, but it has different causes, and shouldn't be approached the same way as white-on-black racism.

I personally don't agree with this. Racism is racism regardless of who's doing it.

Totally, no type of racism is any more justified than any other.

red n black star

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wheresmyshoes
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Aug 2 2005 14:53
John. wrote:
Shoes - yeah I think racism's racism, but I think white-on-"black" and black-on-white racisms are different due to various societal structures.

I dunno, I think it amounts to the same thing in the end. And if it's in a black dominated area it's pretty much the same if it's in a white dominated area.

Garner
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Aug 2 2005 16:00

Obviously for the victim it amounts to the same thing, and there's no justification either way, but the causes are completely different.

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Steven.
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Aug 2 2005 16:37
wheresmyshoes wrote:
John. wrote:
Shoes - yeah I think racism's racism, but I think white-on-"black" and black-on-white racisms are different due to various societal structures.

I dunno, I think it amounts to the same thing in the end. And if it's in a black dominated area it's pretty much the same if it's in a white dominated area.

I don't think so. I'm white in probably a minority-white (or nearly) area, and I'm still far less likely to be "searched/arrested/convicted/imprisoned or diagnosed with serious mental illness or personality disorder etc."

I don't know how much equal opps stuff helps minorities get work, but I think I probably find it a lot easier.