What initiatives do the Lib Com'ers propose?

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redyred
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Jul 21 2005 23:13

Disclaimer: Of course, I do realise the irony of attempting to engage a womble in political debate.

Thora
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Jul 22 2005 01:31

FFS Jack - raw's making some sensible points and trying to spark some debate, and your responses (and those of mini-me redyred) are just aggressive and childish roll eyes At least Catch is actually trying to answer him. You know I love you and all, but you're dragging this things down to playground level.

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oisleep
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Jul 22 2005 06:04

well said thora

<strips for thora>

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cantdocartwheels
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Jul 22 2005 07:09
Thora wrote:
FFS Jack - raw's making some sensible points and trying to spark some debate, and your responses (and those of mini-me redyred) are just aggressive and childish roll eyes At least Catch is actually trying to answer him. You know I love you and all, but you're dragging this things down to playground level.

Ok then, in the long term what material gains dioes summit protesting make? How does it improve anyones lives or contribute to making a stronger class?

What uprising, demand for social change or revolution has ever been attempted without a large local base? The idea that you can build a superstructure for the movement by netwroking aty summit protests every couple of years is ludicrous in itself, but is made even more farcical by anti-organisationalist doctrine (something that should surely be an oxymoron) or the constant bleatings of the liberal left that they are ''horizontal'', which in reality simply isn't true given the substitutionalist nature of the direct action movement and the nature of this style of activism.

Take trade union membership, why do think this has sunk so low, and hwo can we combat this decrease in class consciousness? This is not to say that unions offer all the solutions, of course not, but those are issues we have to address, and what does summit protesting do to help this? I'm not a union member myself either at present, and i know its not simply a case of persuading people to 'sign up' nor should it be. Boosting our confidence and strength as a class goes way beyond convincing people that capitalism is like baddd man. Afterall its one thing to watch the news and say the world is a depressing place, but its quite another to work for long term organised solutions to the problem.

Yet again this demonstrates the weakness of the various strands of the activist anti-capitalist movement, which focuses mostly on what its against but not what its for. In short 'anti-capitalism' becomes a form of religion, criticising the world from an idealist perspective and promising this glorious ''horizontal'' future but offering no means to fight capitalism in our day to day lives.

Take pensions, which looks likely to be the big upcoming industrial struggle in the next few years and affects everyone of us, now how does summit protesting help on this issue? I'm not saying i have the ''solution'' to how to struggle for better and safer pensions and drive back cuts, i don't think anyone would claim that, but i'm prepared to approach it on a realistic level and look at all the angles on how it should be fought and consider nit to be a very improtant issue, whereas simply giving some waffle about ''precarity'', running around in gleneagles for a week and demanding some imagined immediate revolution or seizure of ''social'' spaces is unlikely to help people worrying about whether they're going to lose 5 years of retirement and be forced to work till they die.

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JDMF
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Jul 22 2005 07:19
redyred wrote:
raw wrote:
I am stil however looking for what IS being proposed by the "Libertarian Communists" as an alternative to summit mobilisations, though I think this is a false dualism.

Why should we have a specific alternative as such? We have our ways of organising and we achieve things. G8 summit protesting is not a part of this.

sorry mate, but what is "we"? It sounds like you are claiming to represent libertarian communism here? By all means represent libcom elite or pure libertarian communists something like that, but i consider myself libertarian communist and there were dozens of others who do as well at the G8 and do not share your strict view on the subject.

jack wrote:

Someone who puts building their own group/sect/organisation/party ahead of building the strength of the class.

Good definition Jack, though i would add strict and fundamentalist attitude to controlling the activity and thinking of others in the same political realm to the list.

The trouble i have with your attitude is this: how come young university kid can be so sure what is the ultimate and only way to do things and feels comfortable to slag off everything different from this?

Historical references? The world has changed a wee bit since spain in 30's.

Some kind of deterministic philosophy? Bullshit.

Your own experiences? Doubt it.

Some guru who has knocked all the books and has the perfect theory? No thanks.

For instance your "neighbour test" sounded really patronising mate, like working class is such that they only have time to things directly related to their own interests, or would be too stupid to understand global issues such as G8.

This is bullshit, or perhaps the working class over here and everywhere where i have lived is different to your experiences in the university wink Sounds like you are treating working class as something external to yourself, why don't you just do the fucking stupid test on yourself?

I agree with the A -> B theory, the trouble is that it is so difficult to predict what really takes us closer to B. Sure opinionated people always claim to be sure about everything, but this attitude is not a good basis for politics.

sovietpop
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Jul 22 2005 07:29

I don't think Raw is particularly asking for a re-run of the summit protest argument, but trying to move it on a bit to what other types of political struggle we can engage in.

I sense in this debate that Jack and friends, find it easier to argue about what shouldn't be done, than what should actually be done. That's not so unusual I guess, it is always much harder to work out what is likely to be a successful strategy, it is likely that you will make mistakes and leave you open to the criticisms of others.

But in the long term, I reckon you'd all be much better if you tried to express your political opinions positively in terms of what you do (or would like to do, or think you might do), rather than negatively in terms of who you aren't/what you don't do. And these bulletin boards would become much more interesting.

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oisleep
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Jul 22 2005 07:45
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The trouble i have with your attitude is this: how come young university kid can be so sure what is the ultimate and only way to do things and feels comfortable to slag off everything different from this?

this is something i have struggled to understand as well since coming here

it's sometimes hard to articulate it without sounding like you have to be a certain age or whatever before giving an opinion on something

but this "only true road" (although i broadly agree with most of it) & "we are correct and we don't even debate with anyone who doesn't believe exactly the same as us" type thing, that i'm hearing here a lot , smacks of vanguardist/trot/mohammeden/xian fundamentalism

i don't understand either why things like "marx in the park" and jumping round a field with a bunch of greens, is looked upon by jack and his chums as "doing something" whereas other things like going to the g8 are sneered at down their noses like that was something they were doing decades ok and have proven it to be a waste of time

i'm just as guilty for being negative and critical of things though, although i've never claimed to have the true route and don't hold up things that i do do as changing that much stuff or being the right way

sovietpop
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Jul 22 2005 08:01

I think it has got to to with a lack of confidence. It takes a lot of confidence to be able to admit that you don't have all the answers.

Mike Harman
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Jul 22 2005 08:19
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IT sounds good. How do you intervene though? And do you intervene on behalf of the people in your community on that issue? Have HI ever done actions which are direct and not mediated though lobbying the council? What is your view on anti-social behaviour/CCTV/police, what do you say to people? <--sorry for the amount of questions!

Well, I only help out with HI, and I'm by far one of the newest members so I personally don't intervene that much at all in a practical sense. It's my understanding though that people will accompany tenants to meetings with landlords (housing associations/the council), or give them advice on how to get stuff like repairs done, or in some cases help them write letters. I don't really care whether stuff like that is direct or indirect, it's stuff that has to be done.

We're pretty careful about "on behalf of", because that begins the road of substituting for activity that people should be taking on themselves. There's a whole process of surveys/feedback/follow-up with interested parties that means that we base our activity on what people actually want to sort out, not stuff we've projected ideologically (or fashionably) onto communities. Since HI has members in most of the areas we do stuff, 'on behalf of' might refer to something that directly affects them.

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Have HI ever done actions which are direct and not mediated though lobbying the council?

Well the kids cinema is direct, other long-term members would be able to provide other examples. No we haven't organised mass-occupations of schools and their self-management by students, staff and parents or anything similar, but I think that's a long way down the line for any group in the UK.

A friend of mine, not in HI, but who is perhaps even more anti-activism than me, was recently involved in the RMT strike, not as a supporter, but as a worker and RMT member, and he's been trying to build up rank-and-file contacts to co-ordinate things outside the union as well. I'm also involved in trying to get my workplace unionised, which as I'm still in my probationary period puts me at a small risk of getting into trouble there. I'm also planning to subvertise tongue the company that manages my flat in a week or two, because I've just moved into a shit hole.

It's my view that a lot of protest is pretty indirect to be honest, it may be "civil disobedience" but it's still lobbying people in authority to make different decisions to the ones they would otherwise, and is rarely, if ever, taking decisions directly and managing resources independent of and in opposition to the private or state control they're under. Social centres can't be called indirect, but they (and I know you'll dispute this in your own case, if not generally) appear to mainly service existing activists, and therefore perpetuate an activist subculture. There may be exceptions, and the radical dairy sounds like it might be one (or at least aspects of it), but there's also an inherent temporality to social centres that means that any local roots put out will be cut-off sharpish when it's time to move elsewhere. If you can give me some recent examples of direct action outside protest/social centres I'd be grateful (doesn't have to be Wombles related).

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This is perhaps a problem I have with an political party like HI, which does this type of work (activism?) and at the same time tries build up the image of itself. For what purpose? To win elections?

Well the wombles have an image, and I assume they try to build it up?

HI does go in for local council elections. No member afaik is enthusiastic about the idea, and some of us are overall against it, however I'm not convinced that contesting local council elections is inherently a bad thing (because it's the STATE MAN, FUK DA STATE). The Parisian Sections, Vermont Town Meetings, the Soviets, other directly democratic (to greater or lesser extents) bodies that were set up by the ruling class and were imperfect at best have ended up as the engines of revolutions for a good couple hundred years or more.

The basis on which HI contests elections are very restricted. There has to be a long history of activity in the ward where the election will take place, the candidate has to agree to putting the £10000 councillors allowance into an office/meeting space for HI and local people, and if anyone got elected, they'd organise ward meetings regularly open to all people who live in the area where issues could be discussed and voted on. In other words they'd be as close to mandated and recallable as humanly possible, and I personally wouldn't be involved in the group without most of these caveats. An elected councillor can get a lot more information about things than a member of the public (and if they're denied this information then it shows the limits of fucking 'democracy'). At least one member of HI sees elections as a kind of opinion poll for stuff the group is doing elsewhere, and as a basis to organise publicity around. There's a realistic appraisal within the group about the limits of this kind of activity, the restrictions on actual democracy within councils etc. etc. but for me it's at a level where an individual councillor has the potential to actually be a delegate of the poeple they're supposed to "represent", and this in itself would show up the way that democracy works elsewhere locally and in the rest of society.

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At present I think that this connection (socio-politically based) has a greater potential via Social Centres (or rather spaces which offer a self-organised presence, outside state/council control which is antagonistical) than some political groups.

I don't think social centres can be outside state/council control, if they want, the social centre will get closed down, simple as. Nothing is autonomous under capital. The nursery thing is a very good one - were those parents already quite political (I assume this was Stoke Newington yes?), how about the immediate neighbours of the social centre, or other groups such as pensioners - did you have much interaction with them. What about Stoke Newington's sizeable Turkish community?

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Ok, well I'm not a Libertaran Communist though I no doubt have sympathies.

You're an anarchist right? Bakunin, Kropotkin, Malatesta, the FAI - all described themselves as libertarian communist. All wanted to see a society based on free association with distribution according to need. Do you think anarchist society will be mutualist/free market based? In what sense do you not believe in libertarianism, or communism?

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I don't buy this defensive tag, I think that anti-G8 was offensive, I think any act of resistance no matter how big or small is by its nature offensive.

Is a cornered rat behaving offensively, how about nettle stings? If so, then this could end up being an argument around semantics. I don't want to get into the G8 on this thread, but during the French revolution a group of women managed to get to Louis's bedroom when they went out to lynch his wife (didn't kill the fuckers though).

The policies of the G8 are attacks on the working class, and the protests at best might delay their formal agreement by a few minutes/hours - in fact a major terrorist attack in London didn't even do that. That's defensive IMO.

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How did you get interested in anarchism then?

Propaganda - Woodcock's History of Anarchism and "Anarchism" (a reader with extracts from kropotkin/bakunin etc.) which were in the library at my secondary school. Incidentally I've also ordered about 30 books on working class history and anarchism for the 6th form library I'm working at.

Mike Harman
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Jul 22 2005 08:26
sovietpop wrote:

But in the long term, I reckon you'd all be much better if you tried to express your political opinions positively in terms of what you do (or would like to do, or think you might do), rather than negatively in terms of who you aren't/what you don't do. And these bulletin boards would become much more interesting.

Sovietpop, on this thread at least, the majority of your posts have been having a go at Jack for not expressing his "political opinions positively" in terms of what he does. It's your 15th post on this board, have you yet done so yourself?

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Jul 22 2005 08:27
sovietpop wrote:
I think it has got to to with a lack of confidence. It takes a lot of confidence to be able to admit that you don't have all the answers.

i don't have any answers!!!

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Jul 22 2005 08:32
Thora wrote:
FFS Jack - raw's making some sensible points and trying to spark some debate, and your responses (and those of mini-me redyred)

I like the description of redyred as Mini-me - has anyone spoted anyother Austin Powers characters in this thread?

Obviously Thora could be Foxy Brown, but we seem to be missing Fat Bastard. Can we bring gangster back?

Mike Harman
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Jul 22 2005 08:35
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sorry mate, but what is "we"?

I assume "Colchester Solidarity Group".

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i would add strict and fundamentalist attitude to controlling the activity and thinking of others in the same political realm to the list.

Controlling? How? With radiowaves? Political discussion is not "control". Slagging people off isn't political discussion, but it isn't control either.

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The trouble i have with your attitude is this: how come young university kid can be so sure what is the ultimate and only way to do things and feels comfortable to slag off everything different from this?

Jack isn't a young university kid. I'm not a young university kid. Why do you assume we're students?

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Historical references? The world has changed a wee bit since spain in 30's.

Yep, but loads of people getting involved in politics run the risk of repeating the same mistakes over and over again if they don't study revolutionary history.

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Some kind of deterministic philosophy? Bullshit.

eh?

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Your own experiences? Doubt it.

Moving into a privately rented house that's "unfit for human habitation" in the past month, working temp jobs or "self-employed" jobs with no sick leave or holiday pay for the past four years. Seeing schools and other community facilities closed down, or taken over by car salesmen and swiss bankers. Got fuck all to do with my personal experience then, since I'm clearly a moddlycoddled student wrapped up in cotton wool.

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Some guru who has knocked all the books and has the perfect theory? No thanks.

So you don't read books then?

sovietpop
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Jul 22 2005 08:44
Catch wrote:
sovietpop wrote:

Sovietpop, on this thread at least, the majority of your posts have been having a go at Jack for not expressing his "political opinions positively" in terms of what he does. It's your 15th post on this board, have you yet done so yourself?

I really don't mean to have a go at anyone, sorry if it reads that way, I'm trying to be encouraging.

In terms of what I do (or the wsm, the group I'm in); we have two main types of activities, we produce anarchist propaganda (a paper 6 times a year, magazine twice a year, leaflets, public meetings and web page) and we get involved in struggles where we find them. This discussion is interesting to me because up to now, the struggles we have been involved in haven't been particularly neighbour based (at least some have, and some haven't, but that hasn't been our focus). We've tended to priortise issues to work on by looking at whether there is an opportunity for us to raise anarchist arguements, whether it is a struggle we can win, can we meaningfully contribute something, are there other people in struggle.

But now that we've got a little bigger, in Dublin anyway, we are looking at focusing more on the neighbourhoods we live in, so it is interesting to hear other experiences of this kind of work.

It seems to me that the HI and the social centre approach is quite similar, but one thing I'd be concerned about is for both anarchism (or libertarian communism if you prefer) seems to something that is kept under the counter (please correct me if this is a impression is incorrect). I would be worried that this means that you win support either on the basis of being good activists (with no identifiable politics informing your activity) or providing a good service. Nothing wrong with being a good activists or helping people out, but you can't have a revolution unless you create more revolutionaries. (there is a much longer debate here, which I guess we can get into).

Vaneigemappreci...
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Jul 22 2005 09:12

Ad-Busters are a blatant recuperation of the ad-bust, simple as that, i didnt know that they'd actually floated, but ive seen their magazine and they must have serious bucks behind them as its real glossy and incredibly pretentious, looks as if a bunch of fashion students with a budget the size of the US trade defeceit put it together. I dont really understand how this is an argument against ad-busting though, its like the old argument 'workers soviets=soviet russia=bad idea'. of course ad-busting isnt the be all and end all, its the same stupid argument put foward that suggests that people who attended the G8 summit are all fucking professional protesters who go galavanting round the world looking for a summit to direct their anger at just so they can avoid organising as work or in the community or actually think that by protesting at a summit that capitalism will come crashing down.

The first types of activity i got involved in where putting about propaganda in the form of ad-busts and graf, i was at school at the time so organising resistance at work wasnt a particularly pressing issue, but i'm sure that if i'd seen another ad-bust at the time (no matter how shit) it would have inspired me, it would have made me think that at least there are other people out there who are pissed off and willing to do something about it, the formulation of peoples ideas is a gradual process, your whole upbringing and environment influences how you think, thus even something as small as an ad-bust can influence peoples ideas. If people get stuck in the milieu of ad-busting and fail to progress politically into more pertinent actions and organising the consequences of such stagnation are there to be seen in the glossy pages of Ad-busters, a new market which goes hand in hand with chris martyn and MPH chique. I dont think that the action of ad-busting damages anarchism or radical politics in itself, shit ad-busting may well do however.

I'm sure that as long as the ad-bust is relevant to the class struggle (ie is in conflict with the processes of exploitation, highlights the destructive nature of capital on people and the environment ect etc) and is not simply aimed at the actions of one company in question or some fragmented particular (like company X targets children with its advertising or some other liberal fawning) then it can help influence peoples ideas and i dont see how this is at odds with organising at work or on a community basis.

For the record i havent done any ad-busting for years.

sovietpop
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Jul 22 2005 09:13
Jack wrote:

We've explained again and agin stuff that we think is positive. Fucking hundreds of times. Repeatedly. And yet, the activists always, again and again come bleating out with 'yes, but what do you suggest'.

You see this is the trouble with bulletin boards, I don't read these bulletin boards very often, so I haven't heard your arguements, even though you may have explained them hundreds of times on other threads. I can only go on what you said on this thread (which is not much so far). When I ask you what you do, I'm not setting you up to knock you down, I'm genuinely interested (and neither do I expect all the answers from you, or from anyone, just some contribution to a debate). Perhaps you have had this debate with other activists before, but you've hadn't had it with me (and who knows how many other newbies are lurking, who might also be interested in what you have to say)

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Jul 22 2005 09:17
Catch wrote:
Moving into a privately rented house that's "unfit for human habitation" in the past month, working temp jobs or "self-employed" jobs with no sick leave or holiday pay for the past four years. Seeing schools and other community facilities closed down, or taken over by car salesmen and swiss bankers. Got fuck all to do with my personal experience then, since I'm clearly a moddlycoddled student wrapped up in cotton wool.

to be fair catch, and not wanting to belittle the experience, but as i understand it you have a choice in that you are in a situation where you have a skill that you could earn a lot of money from, but you choose not to. I salute you for doing this, but you do have an escape route if things got to a point that you couldn't bear it anymore

please don't take this the wrong way or as any kind of insult though

on the point about university kid, i do think it's a fair point, i'm 32 and have been working for 16 years, but i'm being lectured on the correct way to advance my class by say Jack, who has how many years experience in the workplace and of workplace organisation?

again jack, this isn't meant to be a dig or an insult and i don't want it to descend into an argument, but it's only fair to point things like this out

sovietpop
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Jul 22 2005 09:30
Jack wrote:
sovietpop wrote:

That do for a start?

yes, it sounds very good, and with the exception of the anti-fascist stuff (because there isn't any fascist presence), pretty similar to what we do in Ireland.

(edited to add, though we also get involved in summit mobilisations)

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Jul 22 2005 09:33
sovietpop wrote:
It seems to me that the HI and the social centre approach is quite similar, but one thing I'd be concerned about is for both anarchism (or libertarian communism if you prefer) seems to something that is kept under the counter (please correct me if this is a impression is incorrect).

It is not kept under the counter in Hackney Independent, because we are not an anarchist or libertarian communist organisation. Some of our members would probably describe themselves as that, but others would definitely not.

sovietpop wrote:
I would be worried that this means that you win support either on the basis of being good activists (with no identifiable politics informing your activity) or providing a good service. Nothing wrong with being a good activists or helping people out, but you can't have a revolution unless you create more revolutionaries. (there is a much longer debate here, which I guess we can get into).

I'm not sure I agree with any of this. I think for me it isn't even a question of "producing revolutionaries" in some kind of production line, but encouraging class consciousness and solidarity. Producing informed and active working class communities, maybe.

sovietpop
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Jul 22 2005 09:39
sovietpop wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with any of this. I think for me it isn't even a question of "producing revolutionaries" in some kind of production line, but encouraging class consciousness and solidarity. Producing informed and active working class communities, maybe.

Here is a practical problem.

In Ireland, the group who are most successful with this approach are Sinn Fein. Now if we were going to adopt a similar strategy, working in the same communities, and *not* be explicit about our anarchism, how is anyone going to know that our motivations are different from that of the shinners (and our approach to politicall change, indeed our vision of the type of society we want to live in).

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oisleep
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Jul 22 2005 09:57
Jack wrote:
oisleep wrote:

to be fair catch, and not wanting to belittle the experience, but as i understand it you have a choice in that you are in a situation where you have a skill that you could earn a lot of money from, but you choose not to. I salute you for doing this, but you do have an escape route if things got to a point that you couldn't bear it anymore

Nope, I'm pretty sure that isn't true (certainly isn't for me, unless you include moving back into my parents so I can save a bit more from whatever shitty job I do embarrassed ). Amazingly, going to uni DOESN'T actually guarantee a decent job. In my case, it's certainly made getting work a lot harder.

well i was addressing it to catch, and i didn't even refer to university/parents so i've no clue what your going on about confused

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Quote:
on the point about university kid, i do think it's a fair point, i'm 32 and have been working for 16 years, but i'm being lectured on the correct way to advance my class by say Jack, who has how many years experience in the workplace and of workplace organisation?

Stupid argument. "I'm 50 and have been working for 32 years, but I'm being lectured on the correct way to advance my class by say oisleep, who has how many years of experience in the workplace and of workplace organisation". If some Trot came out with that, you'd be fucking livid.

stupid parallel to draw as well - if you think the difference in experience between someone who has worked 32 years and someone who has worked 16 years is the same as the difference in experience between someone who has worked 16 years and someone who has worked a few months, then i don't really know what to say to be honest, but i'd prefer it didn't descend in to a pointless slagging match

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Fozzie
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Jul 22 2005 09:58
sovietpop wrote:
Here is a practical problem.

In Ireland, the group who are most successful with this approach are Sinn Fein. Now if we were going to adopt a similar strategy, working in the same communities, and *not* be explicit about our anarchism, how is anyone going to know that our motivations are different from that of the shinners (and our approach to politicall change, indeed our vision of the type of society we want to live in).

Clearly there are wider issues there about the role of anarchism in NI, which I'm reluctant to get into (essentially because I'm no expert and don't have the time needed to thrash it all out here). These issues are not faced by HI...

But I'd be interested to know what you think about Working Class Action in Dublin? http://www.geocities.com/wcaireland/

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oisleep
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Jul 22 2005 10:02
jack wrote:
certainly isn't for me, unless you include moving back into my parents so I can save a bit more from whatever shitty job I do

although this is also part of my point,

"But still you'll never get it right,

cos when you're laid in bed at night,

watching roaches climb the wall,

if you call your Dad he could stop it all"

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the button
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Jul 22 2005 10:12

Actually, Jack, you do have something of the Jarvis Cocker about you. tongue

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oisleep
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Jul 22 2005 10:14
Jack wrote:
oisleep wrote:

well i was addressing it to catch, and i didn't even refer to university/parents so i've no clue what your going on about confused

Because I know Catch doesn't fetishise poverty, and thus doesn't do that kind of crap.

Quote:
stupid parallel to draw as well - if you think the difference in experience between someone who has worked 32 years and someone who has worked 16 years is the same as the difference in experience between someone who has worked 16 years and someone who has worked a few months, then i don't really know what to say to be honest, but i'd prefer it didn't descend in to a pointless slagging match

Me too. I wasn't saying it was an exact parallel. But yea, sure, lets avoid a slagging match.

yes so in that case probably best to let catch respond to things that are addressed to him, rather than answer on his behalf

it's nowhere near a parallel your analogy

Vaneigemappreci...
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Jul 22 2005 10:20
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Okay, just quickly as some examples -

Local campaigning on issues that effect your local community, and you can make a direct and real impact that benefits people locally. Examples of this Organise! and the Water tax, CSG and the Bus station campaign, IWCA and action against drug dealers (and probably WSM and bin tax stuff too, altho I don't know that as well).

Militant anti-fascism (combined with the above, to create a political alternative to the far right, as well as physicaly opposition where needed).

Workplace work (either building TU's or outside TU structures dependant on the situation, fighting for wage demands etc. all the usual crap).

Producing relevant propaganda (not about the struggle in Bolivia or something exotic like that, or what actions you've done / are going to do, but about practical steps people can take to improve their lives, and how capital is essentially the enemy. Good example would be Sol Fed's "Stuff your boss doesn't want you to know").

Polemicising within the socialist movement (Both anarchist and socialist, basically arguing to the effect of the above)

this is all good jack and i admire people who can organise along anarchist or even slightly radical lines in their community and all this should be aspired to.

The problem is its much easier to organise in some communties compared to others (obviously confused ). For example if we skip through the local paper to look at issues that may be of conern to some the main issues in my area at the moment are: The prospective closure of the army barracks due to army cutbacks, the problem of ferral kids (now unlike the problems that JDMF has had these kids arent really ferral at all the most they get up to is drinking in the street, dishing abuse and doing graf, all pretty tame) and the lack of discipline in the community. Now obviously these are primarily concerns of the council and local police as opposed to the people, but as you can see there is very little to build upon let alone use to put foward our arguments.

Its a fairly conservative area (although its a labour seat) and apart from fighting the fash there seems to be little of relevance to associate ourselves with.

redyred
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Jul 22 2005 10:23
JDMF wrote:
redyred wrote:
raw wrote:
I am stil however looking for what IS being proposed by the "Libertarian Communists" as an alternative to summit mobilisations, though I think this is a false dualism.

Why should we have a specific alternative as such? We have our ways of organising and we achieve things. G8 summit protesting is not a part of this.

sorry mate, but what is "we"? It sounds like you are claiming to represent libertarian communism here? By all means represent libcom elite or pure libertarian communists something like that, but i consider myself libertarian communist and there were dozens of others who do as well at the G8 and do not share your strict view on the subject.

Well he was specifically addressing libertarian communists who disagree with the summit protest tactic. And what I'm saying in that paragraph is pretty much true by definition. I mean, the statement would have been equally valid if I'd said "Libertarian communists who oppose summit protests do XYZ", I only say "we" because I am one.

Mike Harman
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Jul 22 2005 10:35
Quote:

to be fair catch, and not wanting to belittle the experience, but as i understand it you have a choice in that you are in a situation where you have a skill that you could earn a lot of money from, but you choose not to. I salute you for doing this, but you do have an escape route if things got to a point that you couldn't bear it anymore

That's not quite right, it'd take a hell of a lot of work for me to earn significantly more money than I do now, although I am trying to sort out my employment situation a bit so I can earn a bit more (I have responsibilities on their way). I want to have at least some semblance of enjoyment/usefulness in jobs that I do, it just happens that those jobsI don't take shit jobs so I can say I've got a shit job. Do

My personal situation has nothing to do with schools being closed down/privatised, shit transport, crack addicts/shootings etc., except that where I live the effects are perhaps a bit more noticeable. Things aren't particularly bad for me (well these fucking windows are terrible), and could be much worse. However, it's personal experience you were talking about and the lack of it, not personal experience of extreme poverty or whatever. The list I gave is hardly unique in terms of the experience of people in their '20s living in London.

I thought the university kid was aimed at anyone on this thread who expressed an opinion and was in some way associated with the libcom group. If you're just pissing about with Jack then no problem.

redyred
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Jul 22 2005 10:40
Vaneigemappreciationclub wrote:
The problem is its much easier to organise in some communties compared to others (obviously confused ). For example if we skip through the local paper to look at issues that may be of conern to some the main issues in my area at the moment are: The prospective closure of the army barracks due to army cutbacks, the problem of ferral kids (now unlike the problems that JDMF has had these kids arent really ferral at all the most they get up to is drinking in the street, dishing abuse and doing graf, all pretty tame) and the lack of discipline in the community. Now obviously these are primarily concerns of the council and local police as opposed to the people, but as you can see there is very little to build upon let alone use to put foward our arguments.

Its a fairly conservative area (although its a labour seat) and apart from fighting the fash there seems to be little of relevance to associate ourselves with.

There's always going to be something though. I mean, Colchester is a fairly conservative town and CSG physically can't achieve things on the scale that say HI or HSG have, but we still do something (heh), we still make achievements and we are slowly gaining more support and getting involved in a wider range of things.

Also, I would say ferral kids are much more of a concern of local people than they are of the police and council. If there is a really visible problem here then it could be a great thing to act upon.

oisleep's picture
oisleep
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Jul 22 2005 10:50
Catch wrote:
Quote:

to be fair catch, and not wanting to belittle the experience, but as i understand it you have a choice in that you are in a situation where you have a skill that you could earn a lot of money from, but you choose not to. I salute you for doing this, but you do have an escape route if things got to a point that you couldn't bear it anymore

That's not quite right, it'd take a hell of a lot of work for me to earn significantly more money than I do now, although I am trying to sort out my employment situation a bit so I can earn a bit more (I have responsibilities on their way). I want to have at least some semblance of enjoyment/usefulness in jobs that I do, it just happens that those jobsI don't take shit jobs so I can say I've got a shit job. Do

My personal situation has nothing to do with schools being closed down/privatised, shit transport, crack addicts/shootings etc., except that where I live the effects are perhaps a bit more noticeable. Things aren't particularly bad for me (well these fucking windows are terrible), and could be much worse. However, it's personal experience you were talking about and the lack of it, not personal experience of extreme poverty or whatever. The list I gave is hardly unique in terms of the experience of people in their '20s living in London.

I thought the university kid was aimed at anyone on this thread who expressed an opinion and was in some way associated with the libcom group. If you're just pissing about with Jack then no problem.

fair do's, to be fair i'm just as bad as jack in atagonising the situation, i'll back off now