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Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Feb 13 2007 13:44

is that just a fancy way of saying it goes from 'oh' to 'oer'?

Grace
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Feb 13 2007 14:04

Yes.

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Joseph Kay
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Feb 13 2007 14:16

Ich möchte cool

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jef costello
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Feb 13 2007 16:43
Joseph K. wrote:
'formerly ernestolynch'

eek

Blacknred Ned
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Feb 13 2007 17:29

John wrote:

Quote:
I take it this is a joke, Ned?

You take it correctly John. I think the context of the line makes that clear. Imagine a world without emoticons, they are the contemporary world's cheapened version of the exclamation mark, the literary equivalent of canned laughter.

aswad
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Feb 13 2007 20:28
Grace wrote:
aswad wrote:
Above a, o, or u it's called Umlaut by most people, however not by us;) - since we can pronouce the appropriate sounds (ducking and running).

That's interesting - do you just say the sound of the letter to indicate that you're talking about for example an o-with-Umlaut rather than just o?

When words/names are spelled, we just say the names of the letters, e.g. mögen = emm - ö - gay - ay - enn (adjusted to English pronounciation). When I spell that to non-German persons, I'll say 'o - Umlaut' to avoid misunderstandings. From what I remember (or should I say: seem to remember) from school is that these three sounds ä, ö, and ü form a group called Umlaute (correct plural). There's an impressive Latin term I forgot (got to live down that stereotype of Grrrman perfection).

Grace
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Feb 13 2007 20:52
aswad wrote:
Grace wrote:
aswad wrote:
Above a, o, or u it's called Umlaut by most people, however not by us;) - since we can pronouce the appropriate sounds (ducking and running).

That's interesting - do you just say the sound of the letter to indicate that you're talking about for example an o-with-Umlaut rather than just o?

When words/names are spelled, we just say the names of the letters, e.g. mögen = emm - ö - gay - ay - enn (adjusted to English pronounciation). When I spell that to non-German persons, I'll say 'o - Umlaut' to avoid misunderstandings. From what I remember (or should I say: seem to remember) from school is that these three sounds ä, ö, and ü form a group called Umlaute (correct plural). There's an impressive Latin term I forgot (got to live down that stereotype of Grrrman perfection).

That's an unusual plural! Hehehe. Cheers, I didn't know that before. My need for language geekdom has been fulfilled for the day smile

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Feb 13 2007 20:59

Hey Grace, glad to hear that!! Guessed i would start a lil' something with my original geek q knowing you guys...tongue Good to talk with other intelligent peeps on here tbh... it is a searing indictment wink on todays lack of language skills that hardly anyone knows what a hypen is when i am giving my surname to eg receptionists - time was when everyone knew what that meant...sad it just makes me feel really sad tbh.. sad

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Feb 15 2007 13:34

Er, do you really have data on proportional understanding of the word "hyphen"? I would've thought that with literacy at basically its highest ever level (excluding some recent immigrants) knowledge of that stuff would be higher than ever. In real terms of course, as opposed to rose-tinted "memories" propagated by external sources.

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the button
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Feb 15 2007 13:38

I've read essays by first and second year sociology undergraduates, the majority of whom seem to be barely literate. An essay on Marx that began, "What Marx done is...." for instance.

Will that do?

Blacknred Ned
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Feb 15 2007 14:51

John wrote:

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with literacy at basically its highest ever level

Which suggests to me that where literacy is concerned perhaps we should aim for quality rather than quantity. Anyway John where did you get that statistic from? The Gov't?

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Feb 15 2007 18:14
John. wrote:
Er, do you really have data on proportional understanding of the word "hyphen"? I would've thought that with literacy at basically its highest ever level (excluding some recent immigrants) knowledge of that stuff would be higher than ever. In real terms of course, as opposed to rose-tinted "memories" propagated by external sources.

God you sound pompous at time!! roll eyes I made it clear i was only talking from my own experience.. and my memories are not "rose-tinted" they are accurate - it is not as if they are emotive in nature ffs - peeps did know what a hyphen meant when i gave my surname - they don't know now IME. And i don't know what you mean by "propogated by external sources" (the right-wing press perhaps??) but my whole point is that this is my actual experience. So what i may or may not have read is irrelevant. Perhaps your experiences are different (although AFAIK you have never had a hyphenated surname..therefore cannot compare experiences like for like..) - if so good luck to you..i am not arguing against your experiences (altho as is often the case what you say seems more based on what you feel should be the case rather than your actual experiences..and i think it is actually you, if anyone, who has been "propogated" with this "in real terms" stuff -sounds like serious New Labour spin ..) and i do NOT appreciate you saying that something i experienced has not actually happened in your view just because you don't like the potential implications of it. Tough!! DO NOT ever again - and this applies to other posters as well and not just to me to each other - tell me that something i say has happened to me has not - this is insulting and i would NEVER do it to you. NEVER.

Love

LW X

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Feb 15 2007 18:22

Hey cheers for the comments Ned and Button..it is kinda upsetting no??? "what Marx done.." gah!! I share Johns wish that things really have changed for the better for the majority..i just don't see that reflected in the reality of the experiences of myself and others i know..and i really do think NL are kings of spin.. sad angry

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Feb 16 2007 01:00
Lone Wolf wrote:
God you sound pompous at time!! roll eyes I made it clear i was only talking from my own experience.. and my memories are not "rose-tinted" they are accurate - it is not as if they are emotive in nature ffs - peeps did know what a hyphen meant when i gave my surname - they don't know now IME. And i don't know what you mean by "propogated by external sources" (the right-wing press perhaps??) but my whole point is that this is my actual experience. So what i may or may not have read is irrelevant. Perhaps your experiences are different (although AFAIK you have never had a hyphenated surname..therefore cannot compare experiences like for like..) - if so good luck to you..i am not arguing against your experiences (altho as is often the case what you say seems more based on what you feel should be the case rather than your actual experiences..and i think it is actually you, if anyone, who has been "propogated" with this "in real terms" stuff -sounds like serious New Labour spin ..) and i do NOT appreciate you saying that something i experienced has not actually happened in your view just because you don't like the potential implications of it. Tough!! DO NOT ever again - and this applies to other posters as well and not just to me to each other - tell me that something i say has happened to me has not - this is insulting and i would NEVER do it to you. NEVER.

I didn't tell you what had or hadn't happened to you. You stated that time was everyone knew what a hyphen was. You're not very old, how long ago did everyone know? And what happened to all those people who did know? Who are all these people who now don't know who were around what 5 years ago? If you just mean people under 5 then that'd be accurate. But I doubt many of them have customer service jobs.

I know people are pretty shit at spelling and grammar, I just don't think it's any worse than in the past. For much of the past large numbers of people were just illiterate.

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Feb 16 2007 01:20
Blacknred Ned wrote:
John wrote:
Quote:
with literacy at basically its highest ever level

Which suggests to me that where literacy is concerned perhaps we should aim for quality rather than quantity.

I really, really hope this is a joke.

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Feb 16 2007 02:41
John. wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:
God you sound pompous at time!! roll eyes I made it clear i was only talking from my own experience.. and my memories are not "rose-tinted" they are accurate - it is not as if they are emotive in nature ffs - peeps did know what a hyphen meant when i gave my surname - they don't know now IME. And i don't know what you mean by "propogated by external sources" (the right-wing press perhaps??) but my whole point is that this is my actual experience. So what i may or may not have read is irrelevant. Perhaps your experiences are different (although AFAIK you have never had a hyphenated surname..therefore cannot compare experiences like for like..) - if so good luck to you..i am not arguing against your experiences (altho as is often the case what you say seems more based on what you feel should be the case rather than your actual experiences..and i think it is actually you, if anyone, who has been "propogated" with this "in real terms" stuff -sounds like serious New Labour spin ..) and i do NOT appreciate you saying that something i experienced has not actually happened in your view just because you don't like the potential implications of it. Tough!! DO NOT ever again - and this applies to other posters as well and not just to me to each other - tell me that something i say has happened to me has not - this is insulting and i would NEVER do it to you. NEVER.

I didn't tell you what had or hadn't happened to you.

Yeah you did with yer "rose-tinted..propogated" jibe - that was the bit i objected to in yer post. You were saying my memories were inaccurate (untrue)and influenced by other sources (also untrue) and that therefore the implication is my experiences are not valid.

You stated that time was everyone knew what a hyphen was.

Yeah i DID sound like a bit of an old man in the woods there.. grin That was just me being creative and expressive in my use of language.. had my mates Serge and Knightrose been around that would prolly have led to a bit of a Northern inspired "eee by gum, I remember when.." convo - call it an AFed thing... cool

You're not very old, how long ago did everyone know?

I would say yer 5 years suggestion would be about right tbh.

And what happened to all those people who did know?

Sadly i don't know - i miss their efficiency sad - i have moved house a lot and peeps tend not to stay in customer relation positions for that long anyways..

Who are all these people who now don't know who were around what 5 years ago?

They were prolly still at school - it is mostly the young uns..

If you just mean people under 5 then that'd be accurate. But I doubt many of them have customer service jobs.

Sarky but i won't diss you this time as that is mildly amusing. And i will counter with my equally mildly amusing.. A 5 year old could prolly do better than some of the customer service peeps i have come across...tongue

I know people are pretty shit at spelling and grammar, I just don't think it's any worse than in the past. For much of the past large numbers of people were just illiterate.

Sure i hear wher you are coming from.. fact is some people will be getting a better education now than they would have done in the past. But because, like the NHS, educational provision is so patchy, a lot will be worse off. I reckon the only disagreement we have is that you think the majority are better off - i think the majority are worse off. I doubt if either of us could prove this objectively either way.. i do think it is prolly worth starting a thread about it at some point tho..But please bear in mind my post about the hyphen was clearly not intended to represent a 100% theoretically grounded treatise on the failings of the modern education system - it was clearly intended to be a personal observation and reflection. neutral

Love

LW X

petey
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Feb 16 2007 15:16

people who put apostrophes to mark plurals should be SHOT

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Feb 16 2007 15:35
revol68 wrote:
the button wrote:
I've read essays by first and second year sociology undergraduates, the majority of whom seem to be barely literate. An essay on Marx that began, "What Marx done is...." for instance.

Will that do?

and you support the reification of language away from it's point of production in the street? To alienate the kids from even the means to express themselves?

You scumfuck!

Scum*hyphen*fuck, surely.

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Feb 16 2007 15:45

This is true, because all working class people are incapable of expressing themselves.

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Feb 16 2007 15:52
revol68 wrote:
the button wrote:
This is true, because all working class people are incapable of expressing themselves.

no they express themselves it's just some fucker comes along and points out their spelling mistakes, bad pronounciation of fancy pants theorists,and misplacement of apostrophes. In doing this they seek to bury the communist cotent under bourgeois formalism. ;)

See? You can do it when you want. A whole post with no potty-talk, (just about) correct punctuation and perfect spelling.

Good lad. smile

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Feb 16 2007 16:01

Sorry, old chap. I don't understand your lingo.

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the button
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Feb 16 2007 16:09

Just do it.

Grace
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Feb 16 2007 16:48
the button wrote:
perfect spelling

Tut tut Button, look again.

Personally I don't think there's any real excuse for having bad written grammar; basic grammar skills are primary school material and it's just basic common sense that you don't write, for example, an academic essay in the same register as you'd have a casual conversation. While it might be 'bourgeois' (because obviously only the bourgeoisie can have the capacity to sound halfway intelligent roll eyes) to encourage correct grammar, I do think it's important because bad grammar can equal poor communication and cause people to get the wrong end of the stick, especially in written form where communication isn't enhanced by intonation and body language.

Anyway enough of that, I'm starting to sound like a right cunt.

Grace
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Feb 16 2007 18:43
revol68 wrote:
The other thing is that different people communicate in different ways, so that what appears grammatically incorrect to you actually makes perfect sense within a given culture, for example "who dat" would be corrected to "who's that" but in a given context it works fine.

Well yes, that's part of my point. Different people speak differently and make perfect sense, and that's fine because as I'm often reminded (bloody modern linguists roll eyes) language is fluid and people develop individual grammars understandable to those they speak to. If you have a look, I referred specifically to written communication, in which context can play a part (not everyone stumbling across Libcom would necessarily know what certain jargon means, for example), but ultimately if you write with correct grammar virtually nobody will have difficulty understanding what you're trying to communicate.

Grace
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Feb 16 2007 18:49
revol68 wrote:
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Personally I don't think there's any real excuse for having bad written grammar

and sorry but this pisses me off, "any real excuse", as if people await your approval. I don't think there's any excuse for having half a brain and yet still taking water tablets as a cure but you don't see working class people standing outside middle class new age quack shops tutting at people going in.

Hence why I started the post with "personally I don't think" rather than launching straight into "there is no real excuse". It's just my opinion, innit. Although, if I may be so bold as to say so, basic communication skills are most likely more relevant to life in general than whether I happen to be a dumb hippy or not.

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Feb 16 2007 18:57
Grace wrote:
Well yes, that's part of my point. Different people speak differently and make perfect sense, and that's fine because as I'm often reminded (bloody modern linguists roll eyes) language is fluid and people develop individual grammars understandable to those they speak to. If you have a look, I referred specifically to written communication, in which context can play a part (not everyone stumbling across Libcom would necessarily know what certain jargon means, for example), but ultimately if you write with correct grammar virtually nobody will have difficulty understanding what you're trying to communicate.

Yeah, but people dropping (or incorrectly adding) the odd apostrophe is never really going to act as a barrier to understanding. As long as your grammar isn't so appalling that people have trouble understanding you, I can't see how it's a problem.

That said, people who type everything in txt spk make me want to stab something.

Edit: see, even with me missing out the word "who" the first time, this almost made sense wink

Grace
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Feb 16 2007 19:02
madashell wrote:
Yeah, but people dropping (or incorrectly adding) the odd apostrophe is never really going to act as a barrier to understanding. As long as your grammar isn't so appalling that people have trouble understanding you, I can't see how it's a problem.

That said, people type everything in txt spk make me want to stab something.

True, hence why you don't see me picking people up on little things like that on here and so on. If I decided to do that I'd probably drive myself (and everybody else) mental wink Obviously bigger mistakes can be worked around if you've got a bit of noggin, but I think bothering to get it right in the first place just makes things easier for everybody.

Word on your last point, talking to my sister on MSN is a nightmare haha.

petey
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Feb 16 2007 19:03
madashell wrote:
Yeah, but people dropping (or incorrectly adding) the odd apostrophe is never really going to act as a barrier to understanding.

"Fresh fruit(')s good to eat!"
gnomic statement or ad?

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Feb 16 2007 19:07
newyawka wrote:
"Fresh fruit(')s good to eat!"
gnomic statement or ad?

Depends on the context, obviously.

Though there's only one clause to the sentence, so it wouldn't really work properly as an ad tongue

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Feb 16 2007 19:10
Grace wrote:
True, hence why you don't see me picking people up on little things like that on here and so on. If I decided to do that I'd probably drive myself (and everybody else) mental wink Obviously bigger mistakes can be worked around if you've got a bit of noggin, but I think bothering to get it right in the first place just makes things easier for everybody.

Obviously good gramamr is generally helpful (though stupid things that would only make sense if we all spoke Latin, like no split infinitives, are shite wink), people who get really pedantic about it just get on my wick.