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Steven.
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Feb 18 2007 15:23
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
What I'm trying to do is illustrate the inherent contradiction between your suckling at the teat of (petty) bourgeois misanthropic self-promotion and your communist ideals (wherever they've got to in this thread).

I think you should stop trying to link this to politics...

And on that date thread were you really defending drink driving? cos it really looked that way, but i can't believe you actually would...

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 18 2007 16:03
John. wrote:
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
What I'm trying to do is illustrate the inherent contradiction between your suckling at the teat of (petty) bourgeois misanthropic self-promotion and your communist ideals (wherever they've got to in this thread).

I think you should stop trying to link this to politics...

You think this isn't a political issue? Think about it. Even the fuckin liberals realise the political significance of it. Raymond Williams called Standard English a "class-based elitist con trick".

Caiman del Barrio
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Feb 18 2007 16:07

RE: drink driving. you've managed to present two false dichotomies in one post, amazing. Would you "defend" a drink driver from being lynched by a vigilante mob? You might posture and say no, but you probably would at least want to defend him/her even if they had killed a child. Even the cops admit that a good driver who's over the limit is safer than a bad, sober driver. I've been in cars where the driver's had a couple and felt much safer than when I was driven by my (now dead, but then healthy) uncle. I wonder if you're as steadfast (and let's face it, kinda macho) in your utter contempt of eldery drivers, or teenage drivers. If safety's your concern, then to solely focus on drink driving is pretty one eyed to be honest.

But then again, you don't think that language is a political issue...

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Steven.
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Feb 18 2007 16:18
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
But then again, you don't think that language is a political issue...

That's not what I said. I think grace's language tastes aren't political. she doesn't need me to defend her, but it's not as if she walks about correcting people's posts on here, like that guy from the simclar occupation say. It's just a personal taste thing, not liking bad grammar, like not liking bad music or something. This argument's just stupid.

Quote:
RE: drink driving. you've managed to present two false dichotomies in one post, amazing. Would you "defend" a drink driver from being lynched by a vigilante mob? You might posture and say no, but you probably would at least want to defend him/her even if they had killed a child.

er, that's not going to happen though.

Quote:
Even the cops admit that a good driver who's over the limit is safer than a bad, sober driver.

where?

Quote:
I've been in cars where the driver's had a couple and felt much safer than when I was driven by my (now dead, but then healthy) uncle.

well i think a lot of shit drivers passed their test when it was too easy back in the day. but how you feel doesn't stop drunk drivers killing and seriously injuring 3,000 people every year in the UK.

Quote:
I wonder if you're as steadfast (and let's face it, kinda macho) in your utter contempt of eldery drivers, or teenage drivers. If safety's your concern, then to solely focus on drink driving is pretty one eyed to be honest.

er, what? old people and young people are different to drunk people.

Grace
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Feb 18 2007 23:37

Oxford this Oxford that. And this coming from someone with a wanky philosophy degree from a Russell Group uni and a public school alumnus studying at a hub of bourgeois idiocy. If we're going to start on malicious stereotyping bullshit you don't have a leg to stand on so please leave it the fuck out. I'm not pretentious enough to try and tie in my tastes with communist ideology (why anyone should be expected to sound like an idiot for fear of being branded 'bourgeois' is beyond me), it's certainly not a political issue unless you're going to try and claim I had a fully formed political consciousness when I learned how to speak, which frankly wouldn't surprise me given the amount you two are inventing issues purely for the sake of masturbating over your own self importance. The idea that I should tailor my non-political opinions to fit some kind of fabricated working class code is absurd and, frankly, patronising. Next you'll be telling me I can't go to the theatre any more or something.

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Feb 18 2007 23:48
revol68 wrote:
You don't think sitting in Oxford banging on about bad grammar and standard english isn't political? I'd say it's explicitly a class issue for a start.

Oh fuck off. The uni she goes to is irrelevant, and you know her background so you know this is bullshit. It's just a certain kind of intellectual taste. You're a fucking cultural elitist yourself - is it because you're middle class, or because you don't like shit tv/films/etc.? She's only banging on about grammar to a couple of middle class ponces on the internet anyway.

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Steven.
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Feb 18 2007 23:49
revol68 wrote:
three course meals.

hahahahahaha

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Feb 19 2007 00:10
revol68 wrote:
As I've said before I think that this is becoming less and less meaningful as large swathes of the "middle classes" are being further and further proletarianised and the education system has been rationalised (N.Ireland is somewhat behind in this regard) but there is little point denying that such differances exist amongst the proletariat.

Yeah, and I'm not denying that. English is of course a much bigger issue for large numbers of working class people here who don't even speak it at all. So what?

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There is nothing to be ashamed or guilty about in having such oppurtunities, rather problem is when people try to deny them or infact defend central aspects of it such as 'standard english'.

The only people i've ever seen her comment on English to is other people like you or alan who have had these opportunities anyway, so this is irrelevant. Similarly I've only mentioned bad use of apostrophes to you because you're a poncy graduate smartarse who thinks he knows everything and is smarter than everyone else but can't even grasp how to use one of simplest words in the english language - "its"! And rkn but that's in libcom prop.

petey
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Feb 20 2007 03:12
Lone Wolf wrote:
Good post Newyawka - as you say grammar IS just one indicator of intelligence, is useful in and of itself and does not have to involve passing judgements which as - you say - is not where Grace is at. At all. Tho it sounds as if revel and co are more concerned at the dogmatic attitude of those who DO use grammar rules to make judgements and effect an air of superiority but this is a weakness in those who do this and is not the "fault" of grammar itself.

grin

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Feb 20 2007 04:02
newyawka wrote:
Lone Wolf wrote:
Good post Newyawka - as you say grammar IS just one indicator of intelligence, is useful in and of itself and does not have to involve passing judgements which as - you say - is not where Grace is at. At all. Tho it sounds as if revel and co are more concerned at the dogmatic attitude of those who DO use grammar rules to make judgements and effect an air of superiority but this is a weakness in those who do this and is not the "fault" of grammar itself.

grin

tongue

Well its TRUE. Peeps often attack neutral things when it is the way in which these things are used and interpreted that is the issue. cool

Love

LW X

petey
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Feb 20 2007 06:11

and furthermore...

the Heythrop College website wrote:
Like most of the college’s at Britains’s ancient universities, Heythrop began its life as a religious foundation.

twice! angryangry

Grace
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Feb 20 2007 10:32
newyawka wrote:
and furthermore...

the Heythrop College website wrote:
Like most of the college’s at Britains’s ancient universities, Heythrop began its life as a religious foundation.

twice! angryangry

They love the god though, it's better if they sound thick wink

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Feb 24 2007 04:35

Not sticking around FW Jim?

Solidarity,
x357997
-San Francisco Bay Area GMB
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iww.org
myspace.com/153083047

jdcrutch
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Jun 9 2009 03:00

Jesus H. Christ! All I wanted was to get my phone number off the site, and look what I've done!

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jef costello
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Jun 9 2009 07:55
Steven. wrote:
I learnt the accent names doing a thing where you hold your arms over your head.

That's the kind of hippy crap I'm supposed to be doing. What's wrong with making them copy from the board and shouting at them I ask you.

petey
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Jun 9 2009 11:55
jef costello wrote:
What's wrong with making them copy from the board and shouting at them I ask you.

nothing. nothing at all. i do it every day.

Joanna
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Dec 13 2009 14:13

every dialect is acceptable, "who dat" is perfectly fine. Standard English English and Standard American English are just to make communication easier. Imagine having to learn every single dialect.. too much work, therefore we have the "standardised" versions of English, but in fact all dialects are equal. You have no right to think you're better just because you speak Standard English or because you speak with received pronunciation. That's just your mind getting caught up in useless issues. People who have lives don't have time to check every word they're employing, but people who check their every word probably don't have time to live. I guess it's a choice. Having said that, in my opinion, standard language is a useful tool if you're planning on communicating with people from other dialects. I'm from north London and I have problems understanding southern Londoners, therefore when sharing information at university, in essays, books... it's simply easier to use SEnglish.

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Dec 13 2009 17:46
Joanna wrote:
every dialect is acceptable, "who dat" is perfectly fine. Standard English English and Standard American English are just to make communication easier. Imagine having to learn every single dialect.. too much work, therefore we have the "standardised" versions of English, but in fact all dialects are equal. You have no right to think you're better just because you speak Standard English or because you speak with received pronunciation. That's just your mind getting caught up in useless issues. People who have lives don't have time to check every word they're employing, but people who check their every word probably don't have time to live. I guess it's a choice. Having said that, in my opinion, standard language is a useful tool if you're planning on communicating with people from other dialects. I'm from north London and I have problems understanding southern Londoners, therefore when sharing information at university, in essays, books... it's simply easier to use SEnglish.

All dialects might be equal in an abstract sense but some are more useful than others (more widely spoken, closer to other dialects etc)
I don't think standard English is a dialect in the strictest sense either.
There's also a big difference between Standard English and RP. RP is a register, intonation, diction as well as using correct grammar. Standard English is simply about using the grammar correctly, no one's saying everyone has to talk like the Queen (not sure that she even uses RP). Languages are fluid evolving things, but a fixed written grammar is extremely useful. As the thoughts that you try to express become more complex then the ability to express them simply and clearly becomes more and more important. So while minor grammatical mistakes don't affect comprehension in a short sentence they will have a cumulative effect in longer sentences and over the course of paragraphs and longer pieces of text.