Incels Celebrate Recent Killing Spree -- and some thoughts on Leftist Failure

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Mike Harman
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Apr 27 2018 10:22
Lucky Black Cat wrote:
The link there was confusing to me... was that a mistake? Or are you trying to make the point that making YouTube videos could be part of a propaganda effort to address this?

Sorry that wasn't very clear. Yes I think if we're talking about teens and people in their early '20s who are being radicalised via youtube and reddit, then the response would need to be on youtube and reddit - if you produce youtube content with the right keywords, the algorithm will get it in front of people.

I personally can't stand youtube politics channels as a format, can only just manage podcasts, but then I'm not the intended audience.

The problem though is that the genre of a lot of these videos is two hour unintelligible rants or sixth-form debate societies and who really wants to get involved in that shit. One person who does is Muke - here he is having a go at Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOBcnTeuwMI and Sargon of Akkad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81RIz2fIJs (note I have not watched this past the first two minutes, just know they exist).

Spikymike
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Apr 27 2018 10:53

Lucky Black Cat,
Some of what you are recommending is starting to take place at a limited level in UK schools as part of a 'liberal' reform agenda and presumably would be supported (if maybe critically) by many parents including those with broadly defined radical/left/anarchist views, but expecting the capitalist state to counter all the other pressures working in an opposing direction is too much.
Given my age (absence from a regular work environment) and disinclination to engage widely in social media, a bit as Cooked intimated above, I have been largely unaware of much that has been going on whether tagged as 'incels' or anything similar, let alone many of the long list of named persons Mike Harman seems to reel off at the drop of a hat, so this thread and a few others here has already been something of an education for me! So Mike's other suggestion above of libcom and similar sites increasing their role in educating a wider more receptive population of 'radicals' to be better informed and aware to tackle this when confronted with it in everyday circumstances is maybe the best we can do?

Mike Harman
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Apr 27 2018 11:17

@SpikeyMike - there's a bewildering array of personalities, some with explicit links to each other and some not.

For a communist analysis of one of these people, Shuja Haider's review of Jordan Peterson is worth a look https://www.viewpointmag.com/2018/01/23/postmodernism-not-take-place-jor...

It's worth noting Peterson is raking in over $10k/month (could be much more) in subscriber donations on Patreon patreon.com /jordanbpeterson - this is a massive business for the celebrity end.

If there's a model it can be compared to, it is more self-help pyramid schemes and cults than far-right parties. The self-help aspect I can't pretend to understand how that shit works but it seems quite central in understanding the strength of recruitment.

For an overview of modern day race science proponents, it's the Guardian, but https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/02/the-unwelcome-revival-of-ra... helps introduce some of the personalities.

There are some blogs like https://angrywhitemen.org/ which I have no idea how you'd start to read from scratch, but you can get a bit of an idea what's going on week to week.

Fleur
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Apr 27 2018 11:45

Gamergate is totally relevant, for reasons already stated. It's not about whether you can get laid or not, it's about toxic masculinity and violent misogyny. No one is entitled to sex. Going without sex does not make someone into a violent misogynist. There's an argument going round that if only they could get laid they wouldn't be like this, that maybe if women just took one for the team they'd chill a bit. That in itself is a huge pile of bullshit, that men are entitled to women's bodies and if only they were serviced regularly they wouldn't be like this.

Fleur
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Apr 27 2018 11:27

We Hunted the Mammoth has covering the activities of these men for some years.
Trigger warning for violence, misogyny, rape and lots else.
http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/

Mike Harman
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Apr 27 2018 11:35

I was just coming back to post wehuntedthemammoth, here's a 2013 article mentioning incels: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/03/01/getting-their-puahate-on/ via https://twitter.com/redlightvoices (who has also been documenting this for a long time).

A notable thing about that blog post is that there was an entire community set-up by/for people who realised they'd been scammed by the PUA (pick up artist) community - i.e. that the advice by fucking awful misogynists on how to get laid was shit, and their reaction to this was to be even worse.

Spikymike
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Apr 27 2018 11:53

Thanks to Mike and Fleur for some of those links which I will check out. 'Self-Help' culture has flourished as part of the general growth of commercially promoted individualistic so-called solutions to our problems in circumstances where traditional community structures and class based collective organisation have degenerated so there is presumably a link there as well.

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Noa Rodman
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Apr 27 2018 12:35
Fleur wrote:
Gamergate is totally relevant, for reasons already stated..t's not about whether you can get laid or not, it's about toxic masculinity and violent misogyny.

If you want to discuss the general theme of misogyny of course, but I was referring to the present particular attack with the van, whose perpetrator expresses anger with not getting laid.

Quote:
No one is entitled to sex. Going without sex does not make someone into a violent misogynist. There's an argument going round that if only they could get laid they wouldn't be like this, that maybe if women just took one for the team they'd chill a bit. That in itself is a huge pile of bullshit, that men are entitled to women's bodies and if only they were serviced regularly they wouldn't be like this

I suppose an argument (which no socialist would make) close to that would be, that these incels should swallow their pride and visit a brothel.

Fleur
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Apr 27 2018 12:54

*Eye roll... Something something... Nobody listened when women raised alarms during gamer gate.. Gamergate/PUAs/MRAs/Incels/alt-right are a confluence... Every one who have been following the rise of these men for YEARS knows about the pivotal role of gamergate... but I suppose it was actually about ethics in games journalism. *

Not getting laid doesn't turn you into a violent misogynist. Being a misogynist may however explain why women don't want to touch these men with a 10 foot pole.

Also, the argument that they should be visiting sex workers is an old one. Not only should sex workers not be subjected to these men but it's also part of the fallacy that it's about sexual frustration. It's about hating women.

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R Totale
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Apr 27 2018 13:41

This is a good and important thread so far and I'm as keen on arguing with a brick wall as the next person but I think it would be a good idea to split all of Noa's posts off so the "attempting to explain basic starting points to a wilfully obtuse crank" stuff doesn't completely drown out the actually useful discussion that LBC has started.

Fleur
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Apr 27 2018 13:58

Fwiw, my 2 cents on education I'm keen on young people educating young people, within a good framework. There's been some projects here on university students working with high school students and I used to do something of that kind back in the day. Tbh, teenagers are often grossed out by the thought of old people - by which I mean anyone over late 20s to teens - talking about sex, teachers doubly so!

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Steven.
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Apr 27 2018 15:53

Yeah a lot of interesting points here.

Don't want to derail the discussion but something which did come to mind in terms of people talking about "anti-sexist men's groups" is that unfortunately while left-wing and "anti-sexist men" wouldn't speak in the same terms as these MRA-types, plenty of left-wing male feminists are creeps who are quite happy to assault, abuse and rape women.

And more than that, huge numbers of men of every political description, like liberals, conservatives etc, who would think these type of people are crazy, kill, rape and assault far more women than these extremists.

Just a few things I thought were worth bearing in mind…

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Noa Rodman
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Apr 27 2018 16:59
Fleur wrote:
Not getting laid doesn't turn you into a violent misogynist. Being a misogynist may however explain why women don't want to touch these men with a 10 foot pole.

Also, the argument that they should be visiting sex workers is an old one. Not only should sex workers not be subjected to these men but it's also part of the fallacy that it's about sexual frustration. It's about hating women.

I remember reading an article in Die neue Zeit by a Zizek-type of that pre-WWI epoch, which argued against visiting prostitutes. I don't think any socialist would argue that it is a solution to men's misogyny (to avoid misunderstanding between us); although some states do provide sexual services to disabled people (and autism could be considered that), and perhaps some Platonian state-utopians want to regulate the entire sexual relations ("down with all that pb individualist dating nonsense")

As to your position about not framing it in their own terms (i.e. sexual anger), my comment strengthens you position, since as far as I know "incels" do not visit brothels, which they would do, if their problem really was just about getting off.

I'm sure that single men are not the only ones visiting brothels, but nevertheless I imagine that is a core group of clientele for prostitution, whether they are misogynist or not. It would be interesting to hear if there are any bad experiences with frustrated young men who visit a prostitute for the first time. I imagine it rather like the scene in Bruno when he visits the swingers' club but finally jumps out of the window from the rough sex play.

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Lucky Black Cat
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Apr 27 2018 19:44

[deleting due to glitch in post that made half of it disappear even when I tried re-editing it. posting in new comment box fixed it. comment box #45 is cursed.]

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Lucky Black Cat
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Apr 27 2018 19:40
Mike Harman wrote:
Yes I think if we're talking about teens and people in their early '20s who are being radicalised via youtube and reddit, then the response would need to be on youtube and reddit - if you produce youtube content with the right keywords, the algorithm will get it in front of people.

I think this would be a great idea if there were people making youtube videos dealing with toxic masculinity and other male issues from an anti-patriarchal perspective. But they'd have to

1) Not be boring
2) Not make the viewer feel they were being lectured or scolded

The guys who most need the anti-sexist message are the ones who tend to be the most defensive so it would take some skill to pull off. But if it could be done successfully, that would be great.

Lucky Black Cat's picture
Lucky Black Cat
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Apr 27 2018 19:52
Spikymike wrote:
Lucky Black Cat,
So Mike's other suggestion above of libcom and similar sites increasing their role in educating a wider more receptive population of 'radicals' to be better informed and aware to tackle this when confronted with it in everyday circumstances is maybe the best we can do?

I do think it's a good suggestion. : ) Don't think it's the only thing we can or should be doing, though. But for those who don't feel suited to addressing this issue directly, whether it's because of age or whatever else, then I think what you said in one of your other posts about just generally trying to build up communities of collective struggle to better our lives, is in itself a good thing as well as having an indirect but positive impact on violence and on hatred of all types (whether towards women or people of color or anyone else).

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Lucky Black Cat
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Apr 27 2018 19:43
Fleur wrote:
Fwiw, my 2 cents on education I'm keen on young people educating young people, within a good framework. There's been some projects here on university students working with high school students and I used to do something of that kind back in the day. Tbh, teenagers are often grossed out by the thought of old people - by which I mean anyone over late 20s to teens - talking about sex, teachers doubly so!

This is so true. I remember feeling this way!

I'm also very keen on young people educating other young people on these issues. Another thing I remember thinking back then is that the ideas of anyone over 30 are irrelevant.

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jef costello
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Apr 27 2018 21:55

I read an article a while back that argued that mocking pua types for not getting laid was bad, because the ones who make the money out of it are generally on the sociopathic rapist end of the spectrum and the ones who can actually come out of it as decent human beings already think they are losers who can't get laid so it isn't going to help. Also it is feeding into the same misogynistic system.

What we need to do is to address the fact that they have reduced their entire self-worth, or maybe concentrated all their negative feelings about themselves into this one part of life and then reduced it to a simple blame game. It is prety much standard demagogery. It reminds me of the old line someone quoted on here about "anti-semitism is the socialism of the fool"

The other thing is people are, or seem to feel, increasingly isolated. There is an exhilaration to doing things together, so one of the reasons that people pile on to people on twitter etc is because it gives you a feeling of belonging, it might only be in a small sense, but people need that feeling.

bastarx
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Apr 28 2018 02:00

This pro-feminist mens' webzine might be useful: https://xyonline.net/

I had a guest lecture from the editor, Michael Flood, circa 99 in a uni sociology class and IIRC he seemed pretty sound. There's a wikipedia entry on him: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Flood

Mike Harman
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Apr 29 2018 08:49

Not a groundbreaking article but likens the alt-right YouTube ecosystem to cult recruiting. https://theoutline.com/post/3537/alt-right-recruiters-have-infiltrated-t...

Mike Harman
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May 1 2018 09:01

I've split the Noa derail to https://libcom.org/forums/news/incels-101derail-01052018.

Scallywag
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May 1 2018 21:53
R Totale wrote:
Anyway, more broadly I'd say that this situation has been a real failure in terms of antifascism - without getting bogged down in boring discussions of terminology, I think it's fair to say that we've seen the emergence of a murderous far-right movement with almost no opposition from those folks who normally make opposing far-right movements a priority. I think partly that's because the whole gamergate/MRA/incel spectrum really doesn't look anything like what we're used to far-right movements looking like, but also because there's a real challenge in terms of how we can oppose groups that have pretty much no offline presence. Does anti-incel/MRA action just look like an endless round of getting twitter accounts banned, YouTube videos reported, servers pulled and so on, or is there anything more we can/should be doing?

The right 'libertarian' movement seems to pull together the gamergate/MRA/incel spectrum, the movement is most certainly misogynist, and attracts white identitarians with a victim complex.

In the UK I think this movement is becoming more organised and the place it seems to be growing is in universities. A number of universities have student led 'libertarian' societies and they all seem to pull together and be sponsored or supported by the libertarian party.

I honestly believe the libertarian party particularly the Scottish libertarians as that's the one I've dealt with is a front for fascism, just check out their facebook pages see the kind of things they post, speakers they invite and views they encourage.

If I am right though it means there is fascist movement infiltrating universities, growing of off the 'free speech' moral panic, recruiting and furthering the white identitarian victim complex which sees itself as being under attack from feminism, trans people, safe spaces and no platforming.

We need to counter this.

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Lucky Black Cat
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May 4 2018 21:01
Mike Harman wrote:
Not a groundbreaking article but likens the alt-right YouTube ecosystem to cult recruiting. https://theoutline.com/post/3537/alt-right-recruiters-have-infiltrated-t...

This was quite enlightening for me. It says the attraction that people have to these new rightwing communities tends to be that they provide:

(1) A community of acceptance
(2) An explanation for why they're unhappy / the source of their problems
(3) Hope that their problems can be solved

We (anarchists, the left in general) really need to step up our game on these things.

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fingers malone
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May 6 2018 07:24

People in this thread talking about and trying to address the issue in a sincere way is good.

I really agree with this:

Lucky Black Cat wrote:
just generally trying to build up communities of collective struggle to better our lives, is in itself a good thing as well as having an indirect but positive impact on violence and on hatred of all types (whether towards women or people of color or anyone else).

However, I have a concern. Men with these angry 'betrayed' feelings towards women take it out violently on women around them, mass murders are relatively uncommon but men like this attacking their exes, relatives and women who get in their sights for whatever reason are *extremely* common. I would suggest it is very important for comrades to have some kind of plan for dealing with that.

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Noah Fence
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May 6 2018 08:23

Maybe it’s just that this stuff is more visible now but lately I’ve seen extremes of misogyny that I’ve never experienced in my life before. The fact that these people are building a relatively complex ideology around it is terrifying. They are constructing a theory(that they promote as fact) that portrays the very nature of ‘woman’ to be a child like, totally self interested and self obsessed, that her every thought and instinct is directed at mercilessly using men as a means to get every material and emotional need satisfied.
It’s not only sickening, it’s potential doesn’t bear thinking about.

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May 6 2018 08:45

I've never met anyone who calls themselves an 'incel' but I have met untold men who have a raging and bitter attitude to women at the same time as wanting to have sex with them, and this includes guys who had plenty of girlfriends. Note as well that domestic violence went up substantially with the 2008 crash which suggests a connection with men feeling a loss of control or power in other areas of their lives. I'm not saying that comrades are suggesting we all just invite incels to tea and be nice to them but if we are trying to engage with 'collective struggle to better our lives' (which I do agree with) then having some kind of plan to deal with the consequences of raging men is important.

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fingers malone
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May 6 2018 16:14

I have been involved in the anarchist movement a long time, and two things that have happened to me a lot are:

a) getting shouted at about 'identity politics'
b) getting no answers when I ask questions like this

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May 6 2018 18:14
Noah Fence wrote:
The fact that these people are building a relatively complex ideology around it is terrifying.

or just rediscovering such gems as Proudhon's Pornocratie (even reprinted today iirc by one French neo-fash).

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fingers malone
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May 6 2018 19:47

hey I would really like it if someone responded to my point

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Noa Rodman
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May 6 2018 19:50

btw, formal point: on my "derail", which has been lifted out from this thread by the admin, this was not justified. The point by Sike was, I still think, an exaggeration (and perhaps purposefully hyperbolic, Sike could help clarify). But if it had to be excised, then it would be better to transfer it to my thread on sex/love, instead of creating a new thread.
--

We have here rejected the notion that misogyny is derived from the fact of guys failing to get sex. However, perhaps rarer, but there is also the opposite notion, that misogyny derives from being forced to have too much sex (not even just being seduced).

In Femme Fatales (1976) two guys are persecuted by sex-crazed women. It was a good comedy I thought, although if you're male victim you will condemn the scene where women rape the guys: http://www.imovies.cc/movies/18061/Femmes-fatales/high/fr/