Incels Celebrate Recent Killing Spree -- and some thoughts on Leftist Failure

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Noa Rodman's picture
Noa Rodman
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May 6 2018 19:54

The need for a plan, is that your point fingers malone? We all agree on that I think.

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May 6 2018 23:06
fingers malone wrote:
hey I would really like it if someone responded to my point

You made a few points but I think you're wanting a reply about this?

fingers malone wrote:
I'm not saying that comrades are suggesting we all just invite incels to tea and be nice to them but if we are trying to engage with 'collective struggle to better our lives' (which I do agree with) then having some kind of plan to deal with the consequences of raging men is important.

I wish I had an answer for you. Some groups do an accountability process, which has the potential to work well, but the thing is you need the person to be willing to take accountability... and that's often not the case.

One of the hard things about answering a question like this is that you need different plans for different types of people and different situations.

Fleur
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May 7 2018 12:14

Fingers, I don't actually have an answer or a plan or solution to these awful men. They're terrible and I don't know what to do about them. One thing though, given their level of hate for women, it's seems unlikely that any kind of intervention from women is going to be received positively from them, the opposite more likely. It'll be just another example of harpy feminists trying to ruin their lives. I think this is probably one that the men have to step up to.

wojtek
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May 7 2018 13:22

https://youtu.be/VbypBbQp8kI

Noah Fence's picture
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May 7 2018 13:36
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this is probably one that men have to step up to

More than probably I would say, how to do so is extremely vexing though. Working in an almost exclusively male environment reveals the extreme sexism of what would be called regular guys and any attempt to even engage them in conversation results in an unending stream of preposterous but strongly held convictions. Breaking through this has always proved impossible although that may in part be down to my ability to get the message across.
Anyways, the point is that if getting past the crazy ideas of regular men is very difficult then getting through to these disgusting and pitiful creatures is nigh on impossible, any attempt at engagement is met with a volley of accusations and insults ranging from cuck to the hilariously stupid ‘soyboy’! in which case I guess the only way to deal with them is to try to close them down and that gets you back to the question ‘how?’ again.
There is an occasional victory however, I told this story on Libcom the day after it happened but it’s worth repeating - a few years ago some creep had his hands all over my daughter while she was in the crowd at the bar in her local. She stuck a beauty on him and put him on his arse with a single punch! He then furiously came at her screaming about her being an ‘ungrateful fucking slut’ and that she should be pleased that he had ‘complimented’ her by touching her up. Realising she had not quite taught him his lesson she chinned him again and he was immediately back on his arse!

All that said, I’m truly at a loss as to how these bastards are to be dealt with.

Fleur
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May 7 2018 15:05

Wojtek:

Terry Crews is awesome, I love that guy. I think more men speaking out like that is a hundred times more useful the preaching to the choir discussions that I often find myself in.

fingers malone's picture
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May 7 2018 18:13

thanks for responses people, appreciate it

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May 7 2018 21:33

I wish I knew how to deal with them, they are trapped in a circular logic, which makes it, like Fleur says, very hard to reach them. But to be honest I think that while the extremist nutters are more obviously dangerous, the everyday pressure is where this comes from. Challenging that effectively is hard and I don't really feel like I am having any effect when I try.

Mike Harman
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May 8 2018 10:30
fingers malone wrote:
However, I have a concern. Men with these angry 'betrayed' feelings towards women take it out violently on women around them, mass murders are relatively uncommon but men like this attacking their exes, relatives and women who get in their sights for whatever reason are *extremely* common. I would suggest it is very important for comrades to have some kind of plan for dealing with that.

I think people have replied to this as wanting a plan for incels, whereas it seems to me more like a plan to deal with abusive exes, stalkers, sexual assault, domestic violence perpetrators.

For me at the most basic level I think this means not promoting people who are known to have a history of abusive behaviour towards women.

This means

1. A framework for people to be able to report abuse (accountability processes in organisations/events, not that they always work well, but complete absence of them is not better, and they can be improved over time).

2. Actual consequences for perpetrators when they don't engage with those processes - like at least not continuing to be in leadership positions, doing speaking tours, getting published, let alone ejection/venue bans etc.

3. Those of us who are blokes learning to support people who are victims of this stuff a bit better, which means participating in the above two rather than leaving it to people who are more likely to be at risk of the behaviour to also organise that work.

There are high-profile non-anarchist cases like Steve Hedley, the SWP - however I think there is a tendency still for people to think these are more a problem with Trotskyist and other 'authoritarian sects', whereas they're not at all.

It's quite an old blog post now, but Ramona's blog on a safer spaces statement from the NYC anarchist bookfair barring someone from entry, and the (bad) reaction from people on this very site, is a good reminder of how not to react - although I think the experience of that thread probably taught some people involved to take things more seriously next time. https://libcom.org/blog/safer-spaces-false-allegations-nyc-anarchist-boo...

So that really means that men who do not think they would engage in this behaviour themselves and would like to think they would contribute to stopping it, could be a lot better educated in how it plays out, things to look out for, what's actually useful vs. not if it comes up.

Note that none of these things are going to reduce the 'betrayal'/'victimhood'/'cucks' narrative of MRAs in the short term, but worrying about that is pandering to them, whereas we should not be allowing space for them to propagate in the first space. This doesn't preclude individually talking to people with dodgy views and trying to talk them out of it.

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fingers malone
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May 8 2018 10:45
Mike Harman wrote:

I think people have replied to this as wanting a plan for incels, whereas it seems to me more like a plan to deal with abusive exes, stalkers, sexual assault, domestic violence perpetrators.

Thanks, yeah that is what I meant.

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May 8 2018 10:50
Mike Harman wrote:

3. Those of us who are blokes learning to support people who are victims of this stuff a bit better, which means participating in the above two rather than leaving it to people who are more likely to be at risk of the behaviour to also organise that work.

I agree with the points above but I'd also add just, support, like emotional and practical support for the person dealing with the aftermath of the behaviour. That often is disproportionately left to people who are also at risk of the behaviour and that can be very difficult for those people.

Noah Fence's picture
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May 8 2018 11:16
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I agree with the points above but I'd also add just, support, like emotional and practical support for the person dealing with the aftermath of the behaviour.

I was once in a position where I was essentially the only support for an abused female sex worker. It was very difficult and I felt(and I’m sure I was) woefully inadequate in the role.
I had no training and suggested she found someone who did but she didn’t want to engage with formal agencies.
Anyways, the point I’m making is how difficult it is to know how to support victims, the best I felt I could do was just listen.

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May 8 2018 15:49

I've been in a similar situation to Noah and I echo his sentiments. Supporting a survivor is extremely hard because typically those that do have no idea what they are supposed to say and do, and how to deal with quite the heavy emotional stuff so it won't affect your mental health as well.

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May 9 2018 06:33

You guys went here from trying to define the specificity of incel ideology (and berating idiots like me of totally not getting it) to talking about "average" misogyny, and from trying to address the incel ideology (and underlying causes) to the realisation that it's almost impossible to reach them, before concluding that it's pandering anyway, so all we can focus on is dealing with the aftermath of abuse.

Noah Fence's picture
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May 9 2018 07:54

I guess that’s how conversations develop, eh Noa? Or are we to all shout ‘digression!’ everytime someone strays from the path?
Ftr, I haven’t berated anyone so I hope I’m not included in the ‘you guys’?

Noa Rodman's picture
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May 9 2018 08:35

It felt more like shutting down a conversation.

Noah Fence's picture
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May 9 2018 09:49

Noa, I understand fully the phenomenon of threads being shut down, I’ve witnessed it often enough but I really don’t think that’s the case here. It’s just a baffling problem I guess and blocked ends can often push things into other paths.
Could be wrong of course - maybe Lucky Black Cat could give us their take onit?

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May 9 2018 10:42
Jolasmo (on first page of this thread) wrote:
I can't help but think any group or organisation or movement that was based around "men's issues" would be treated with overwhelming hostility and suspicion by much of the established left - both from anti-IDpol haters and the woke intersectional types. Maybe I'm overly cynical but I reckon it'd just be dismissed as MRA-lite by a lot of folks.

.

Mike Harman wrote:
none of these things are going to reduce the 'betrayal'/'victimhood'/'cucks' narrative of MRAs in the short term, but worrying about that is pandering to them, whereas we should not be allowing space for them to propagate in the first space.

Mike Harman
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May 9 2018 10:46

The first quote is talking about groups to talk about men's issues in a way that doesn't reinforce misogyny.

The second quote is about dealing with perpetrators of sexual assault and domestic violence in political organisations.

So you have proved that people said different things about different things, well done.

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May 9 2018 12:25

You said that worrying about "that" [namely the fact, that "none of these things are going to reduce the 'betrayal'/'victimhood'/'cucks' narrative of MRAs in the short term" - I agree with you here btw, that is true] is "pandering to them".

And then you go on: "whereas we should not be allowing space for them to propagate in the first space". So obviously you think there are in fact people allowing space for MRA's to propagate, and since you were talking about left organisations, I have to infer that you consider the "MRA-narrative" present within these left organisations, and since you were not just talking to the abstract sky, I have to infer that you think there are people on this forum thread who argue the position that MRA's should be allowed space.

Mike Harman
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May 9 2018 13:11

That's a lot of inference.

If political organisations take action to deal with sexual assault and DV, and this is in any way discussed publicly (such as even the hypothetical conversation on this thread), then it can/will be used to further a 'victimisation of men by the left' narrative by MRAs. Those MRAs or adjacent people may or may not need to be in the organisation (or this thread).

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May 9 2018 15:16

I have to infer, because you are being coy. You yourself were aware of the inference, since you hastened to add: "This doesn't preclude individually talking to people with dodgy views and trying to talk them out of it." But still, you found it necessary to qualify it by "individually". As opposed to what? Politically, publicly?

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May 9 2018 19:52
Noa Rodman wrote:
You said that worrying about "that" [namely the fact, that "none of these things are going to reduce the 'betrayal'/'victimhood'/'cucks' narrative of MRAs in the short term" - I agree with you here btw, that is true] is "pandering to them".

And then you go on: "whereas we should not be allowing space for them to propagate in the first space". So obviously you think there are in fact people allowing space for MRA's to propagate, and since you were talking about left organisations, I have to infer that you consider the "MRA-narrative" present within these left organisations, and since you were not just talking to the abstract sky, I have to infer that you think there are people on this forum thread who argue the position that MRA's should be allowed space.

not at all, I posted on the thread based on some personal previous experiences, and I posted as I felt people would be sympathetic, not because I felt someone was arguing that MRAs should be allowed space.
I'm also not necessarily talking about people who identify as MRAs or talk that narrative, I was talking more about ones who have a bitter and raging attitude to women which makes them dangerous to be close to.

Mike Harman
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May 9 2018 21:02
Noa Rodman wrote:
"This doesn't preclude individually talking to people with dodgy views and trying to talk them out of it." But still, you found it necessary to qualify it by "individually". As opposed to what? Politically, publicly?

Yes individually, such as in the sort of group discussed at the beginning of the thread, or if they're family members, co-workers, as also discussed in the thread.

Not publicly, as in not inviting them to debates with anarchist groups, or doing talking heads TV slots with them, or youtube channel slots (although I think articles and/or videos debunking their stuff can be useful, but the target of those is not really MRAs themselves).

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May 10 2018 06:28
Mike Harman wrote:
Yes individually, such as in the sort of group discussed at the beginning of the thread,

"Individually" – such as in a group? First of all, within a leftist group I would expect some agreed approach to deal with the issue, i.e a plan, i.e. the opposite of doing things individually, which reeks of non-transparency. This is as regards internal affairs. Secondly, and more importantly, it is about addressing the issue externally, in larger society, outside the group. And that requires also some agreed upon, collective action, i.e. plan. The OP even talked about a "movement that addresses toxic masculinity and other ways males are harmed by patriarchy". And further there was talk about a "group or organisation or movement that was based around "men's issues"".

Mike Harman
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May 10 2018 09:59
Noa Rodman wrote:
"Individually" – such as in a group? First of all, within a leftist group I would expect some agreed approach to deal with the issue, i.e a plan, i.e. the opposite of doing things individually, which reeks of non-transparency.

Quite amazing how you manage to keep going like this, it's almost impressive.

Let's say there is a 'leftist group' which is specifically holding a meeting about mens' issues, per the discussion earlier.

Someone who has been exploring various MRA groups, maybe thinks of themselves as incel already, turns up.

Now that leftist group is dealing with that person as an individual.

There is a Nazi-exit programme in Germany. It is some kind of NGO run by a criminologist and an ex-Nazi, they also deal with people as individuals. The 'group working with individuals' concept which seems very alien to you does exist in the real world: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/8gvx8b/are-you-looking-to-break-away-...

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May 10 2018 12:21
Mike Harman wrote:
dealing with that person as an individual

So now you're defining "individual" as an antonym to incel/MRAs "groups", whereas first you defined "individual" as opposed to the open "public".

Mike Harman wrote:
Let's say there is a 'leftist group' which is specifically holding a meeting about mens' issues, per the discussion earlier.

Someone who has been exploring various MRA groups, maybe thinks of themselves as incel already, turns up.

That sounds like a public discussion group, which can get recorded/minutes published. Maybe that is not exactly 'inviting them [incels] to debates with anarchist groups", but surely organising a public discussion on this theme can expect people with misogynist views to be present. And what if the "individual' who shows up is a representative member of an "incel group"? Then you would be debating with a "group" after all.

Mike Harman
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May 10 2018 12:46
Noa Rodman wrote:
And what if the "individual' who shows up is a representative member of an "incel group"? Then you would be debating with a "group" after all.

Well there are no organised incel groups, which you'd know if you actually researched this.

If we take the wider manosphere, then if for example Mike Cernovich (not a leader of a group, but an alt-right celebrity that can be said to be representative on some level) showed up out of the blue, I'd expect them to get ejected pretty fucking fast, because there is no way that would be a good faith attendance.

Fleur
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May 10 2018 13:26

Noa, people have posted up links and references, which would illuminate you on the subject.

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May 10 2018 16:21

Two articles I recommend on this subject:

'I'm sad that I didn't have sex until I was 37'- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-43956366

'"Unfuckable" women don't go on killing sprees' - https://splinternews.com/unfuckable-women-dont-go-on-killing-sprees-1825...