Indymedia,libcom & Aufhebengate.

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Spikymike
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Jul 25 2013 17:00
Indymedia,libcom & Aufhebengate.

I hesitate.... but some things in our milieu cannot be ignored.

It will not have gone unoticed to many using this site that libcom as a whole (and not just the admins or posters on particular discussion threads) continues to get attacked via Indymedia on a variety of past issues, but mainly over the admins defense (unjustified in my opinion) of a member of Aufheben in his dual role as academic researcher on policing and political activist.

As someone critical of the admins on this particular and related issues, though unfamiliar with some of the other matters for which the site has been lambasted, the only weak defense I would put forward here is that despite closing them, most of the earlier discussion threads on what became known as 'Aufhebengate' are still available here for those who want to take up this matter again.

In particular I refer to:

'Aufheben's Crowd controlling Cop Consultant.....'
'Aufheben's riots article discussion' and
'Anarcho-leftism and the politics of libcom' together with some of the provided links.

I suppose the admins will hate me for bringing this up here but so will some of my other comrades for continueing to regard libcom (with all it's faults) as a valuable resource.

Harrison
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Jul 25 2013 21:26

How does discussing this on the internet again, solve anything? PM an admin or something.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 25 2013 22:16

I'm slightly confused, what's the point of the OP?

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Agent of the In...
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Jul 25 2013 22:21

Is this really that big a crisis that it has to be addressed again?

Spikymike
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Jul 26 2013 15:45

Well there is certainly some pretty insane rubbish being thrown at the libcom site by the morally superior 'super activist' types posting on Indymedia just now, but then the libcom admins did themselves and the site no favours over Aufhebengate providing such types with grist for their mill - the admin's saving grace being that such discussion over the issue wasn't scapped and is still accessible for anyone prompted by the stuff on Indymedia to check this particular issue out for themselves.

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Steven.
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Jul 26 2013 16:15

Yeah, I must say I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is.

I haven't looked at Indymedia for years, it's always full of insane shit and lunatics shouting at each other.

As you point out, we already have a large number of threads discussing this very topic, so I'm not sure what is to be gained by another one, and unless anyone objects I can lock this thread, and if people want to continue any of the previous discussions they are welcome to.

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Cooked
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Jul 26 2013 19:16

I'm genuinly wondering why the thread was started. Locking it would prevent any clarification. The heat the discussions are generating and the lunatics it attracts are annoying for sure but it is an issue worth discussing in a sane manner. If only to figure out what should be done similar circumstances when it happens again.

I thought the ICC article was decent and the question of how these things should be dealt with in a "milleau" rather than a political org is difficult.

Again I'd be interested to know why Spiky started the thread and how he'd like to see it progress.

(I cut out some conspiracy like shit, I just feel the tone and confusion on the topic is hard to understand, bordering on suspicious. Samotnaf seems calm and collected compared to some of these people.)

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boozemonarchy
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Jul 26 2013 19:46

So, I don't know what Aufhebengate is.

I see folks saying there is plenty of threads out there. I tried a couple of searches and am still unsure of what is being referenced.

Could someone link me the vital threads?

Thank you in advance.

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Theft
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Jul 27 2013 03:02

http://libcom.org/forums/general/anarcho-leftism-politics-libcom-1301201...
http://libcom.org/forums/general/aufheben-riots-article-discussion
http://libcom.org/forums/general/aufhebens-crowd-controlling-cop-consult...

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Rob Ray
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Jul 27 2013 04:45

Indymedia's hidden the thread OP's referring to after Seamus the tout got outed as one of the main people hanging around on it and most of the "supporting info" was shown to be either nonsense or "six degrees of separation" stuff.

The people still pushing this after what, two years are doing so for the sake of their personal agendas Spikymike, it has nothing to do with any actual level of scandal. Anyone who's still taking them seriously needs to be told that in no uncertain terms.

Spikymike
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Jul 27 2013 12:54

As Cooked points out the stuff appearing on Indymedia (which some have responded to there in a more sensible manner) is not the only very recent mention of libcom and the Aufhebengate affair as the ICC rather strangely decided after all this time to publish a statement on it, which though balanced in some respects manages to slip in a comparison and defense of their own past, frankly elitist and bullying approach to splits in their own ranks.

Not wishing to engage myself in the rather crappy Indymedia scrap but recognising that even the most disturbed individuals sometime make points with at least a grain of truth in them I chose to post this on libcom - perhaps I should have intervened on Indymedia rather than here, I don't know.

I think libcom lost some sound contributors over the admins dealing with Aufhebengate and my defense of the site to some of those lost contributors does not imply any less of a critical attitude to matters past (including the ICC's past), when those matters can potentially influence the present or future.

I'm sure the admins will lock this after a while anyway which is of course their entitlement.

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Jul 27 2013 15:25

Hi Mike, I totally appreciate you're posting this in good faith. However I'm still not sure what you want from this thread. Are you asking us something, or reiterating your previous disagreement, or something else? Not trying to be arsey, I'm genuinely not sure what you're after.

Spikymike
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Jul 28 2013 15:00

Steven,

You are pushing this thread up the listing rather than me now. I was just reiterating my, and some others, criticism of the libcom admins on Aufhebengate and reinforcing that by drawing to the attention of anyone checking this site out on the back of Indymedia or the ICC where that was openly discussed on this site. It's a backhanded and limited defense of libcom if you like. It did seem odd to me that no one else here picked up on the Indymedia (or ICC) criticism since despite your casual dismissal of that site it is still regularly used by others in the wider anarchist scene. There are no 'authorities' in the communist milieu (nor could there be) for judging the truth in these disputes, only the availabillity of open and transparent discussion which libcom goes at least some way to making possible. Anyway - enough said.

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Steven.
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Jul 28 2013 17:39

I have no problem with this thread being pushed up the ranking, I was just wondering what you wanted from the thread, which I now know, so thanks for clarifying.

I have googled the articles you mentioned, on Indymedia someone has posted up this amazing graphic, which has put us in a bit of a panic as we have finally been rumbled!

jolasmo
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Jul 28 2013 18:07

Is that real? That is some full Glenn Beck shit right there.

~J.

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Noah Fence
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Jul 28 2013 19:50
Quote:
I have googled the articles you mentioned, on Indymedia someone has posted up this amazing graphic, which has put us in a bit of a panic as we have finally been rumbled!

Well, that's me convinced. Libcom, you are a bunch of wrong uns.

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Steven.
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Jul 28 2013 20:14
jolasmo wrote:
Is that real? That is some full Glenn Beck shit right there.

~J.

Oh its real:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/07/511634.html

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 28 2013 20:51

That is f*cking amazing.

Indymedia, what a clusterf*ck.

Communists WAKE UP!!!1!!

Fleur
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Jul 28 2013 20:56
Quote:
proof that libcom.org is an internet troll phenomenon, an online urinal wall of toxic rumors spewed by anonymous sociopaths who are individually and collectively one hundred percent bad news:

Obviously glad that I've been enlightened to this.

Clearly there's been a run on tinfoil for hat-making purposes.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jul 28 2013 22:32

The laughing and incredulity is a double bluff.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jul 28 2013 22:45

and where are the Jews in that cobweb of deceit.... exactly.

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Theft
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Jul 28 2013 23:03

Problem is, under all the nonsense from at times both sides on this, there is some really important issues, that for many have never been fully addressed, with regards the role of academics and Aufheben and remembering this isn't the first time these issues have been raised.

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Jul 28 2013 23:11
Theft wrote:
Problem is, under all the nonsense from at times both sides on this, there is some really important issues, that for many have never been fully addressed, with regards the role of academics and Aufheben and which isn't the first time.

To be serious for a moment I think this is important. With many anarchists pursuing a life of academia seem to forget that their studies can and do get folded into social policy. Obvious but worth repeating. We lead often schizophrenic lives, where the demands of say academia can take precedent over ones other quite deep felt and moral positions outside of work.

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Juan Conatz
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Jul 29 2013 04:19
Mr. Jolly wrote:
To be serious for a moment I think this is important. With many anarchists pursuing a life of academia seem to forget that their studies can and do get folded into social policy. Obvious but worth repeating. We lead often schizophrenic lives, where the demands of say academia can take precedent over ones other quite deep felt and moral positions outside of work.

Sure, but the polemics, exaggerations, multiple versions and conflicting accusations that came out didn't really help clarify anything, and instead made most people not personally invested become exhausted of the whole thing. That's another lesson in this probably not learned. I mean, even briefly looking over some of the comments of this on other sites there's all types of weird stuff being said that has nothing to do with whatever ultraleft personality or groups originally said.

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888
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Jul 29 2013 05:11

Some weird communique from a French group was posted on anarchistnews recently... I was a little surprised it was still being talked about.

http://anarchistnews.org/content/%E2%80%9Clibcom%E2%80%9D-and-%E2%80%9Ca...

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 29 2013 07:15
Mr. Jolly wrote:
Theft wrote:
Problem is, under all the nonsense from at times both sides on this, there is some really important issues, that for many have never been fully addressed, with regards the role of academics and Aufheben and which isn't the first time.

To be serious for a moment I think this is important. With many anarchists pursuing a life of academia seem to forget that their studies can and do get folded into social policy. Obvious but worth repeating. We lead often schizophrenic lives, where the demands of say academia can take precedent over ones other quite deep felt and moral positions outside of work.

I mean, yeah, but what job doesn't that apply to one degree or another? Schools certainly socialize the next generation of workers into the social relations of capital. Public transport is fundamentally geared towards getting people to and from work. Heath workers make people better so they can return to work when they get sick. Etc, etc.

Maybe academics should be more self-aware and attempt to assert more autonomy over their work, I don't know, but I also don't think it makes sense to pretend that in any job there isn't some degree of conflict between the work, morality, and general class interest.

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Chilli Sauce
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Jul 29 2013 07:19

Oh yeah, who are the Campaign Company, Tavistock Institute, and Jane's policing?

Also, I love how "Indy"media takes the word of the right-wing tabloids to form part of their anti-libcom argument.

Spassmaschine
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Jul 29 2013 08:27
Chilli Sauce wrote:
Oh yeah, who are .... Jane's policing?

From wiki:

Quote:
Police Review (also known as Jane's Police Review) was a weekly magazine for police officers in the United Kingdom, latterly published by Jane's Information Group. The magazine was founded in 1893 as The Police Review and Parade Gossip, aiming to (in its own words) 'cultivate the self-respect of the constabulary of this country, to raise them in the esteem and regard of all their fellow citizens'.

Its relevance to the whole aufhebengate thing is Stott, Reicher and x's Chaos Theory article was published in it.

admin: no real names

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Steven.
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Jul 29 2013 08:43
Spassmaschine wrote:
Its relevance to the whole aufhebengate thing is Stott, Reicher and x's Chaos Theory article was published in it.

not to bring up this whole can of worms again but just to clarify that x had nothing to do with writing that article. He agreed to be credited as author as a "favour" to get publishing targets, which he and Aufheben knowledge was a mistake as he and they both entirely reject the contents of the article.

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Devrim
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Jul 29 2013 09:25
Chilli Sauce wrote:
I mean, yeah, but what job doesn't that apply to one degree or another? Schools certainly socialize the next generation of workers into the social relations of capital. Public transport is fundamentally geared towards getting people to and from work. Heath workers make people better so they can return to work when they get sick. Etc, etc.

Maybe academics should be more self-aware and attempt to assert more autonomy over their work, I don't know, but I also don't think it makes sense to pretend that in any job there isn't some degree of conflict between the work, morality, and general class interest.

There is a huge difference between the work of a bus driver, and an academic. Surely you must see this. The academic's role is producing ideology. The 'product' of his labour is directly connected to his own ideas. While it may be theoretically possible to produce ideology without having an attachment to the ideas you produce, I would doubt in reality that there is anyone involved in academia who actually does it.

What this means is that for communist bus drivers, bus driving isn't an essential part of how they see social change. In fact, getting people to stop driving buses (i.e. strike) is probably part of it. With the academic, the product of their work (ideology) is intrinsically linked to the way they see social change (their ideology).

I think that this is quite an obvious point.

Devrim

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Jul 29 2013 10:27

The slagging off of indymedia above seems to be using the same pattern as the attacks on libcom. As you know a post on libcom forums isn't to be taken as "libcom policy". (I'm not an indymedia reader)

Reposting the most batshit stuff helps noone and just breeds more confusion and obscure any real issues.

I split the thread on academia etc to here