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From Radical to Right Wing

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Samotnaf
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Jun 14 2010 11:44

Hughes:

Quote:
Transcending "Left and Right" doesn't hold much interest to me. No offense, but it sounds like a bunch of intellectual masturbation. That said, if you you have a readable, brief account (the size of a Wikipedia page or less) of what it is you're talking about I'd be happy to read it so I might disagree with you in a more informed way.

Read:

Struggling for some independance of mind and spirit and struggle doesn't hold much interest for me. No offense, but I'm being offensive and complacent, cos I haven't even learnt how to masturbate yet, intellectually or otherwise. That said, if you have a soundbite-sized ad for the "Idiots Guide To The Theory & Practise of the Struggle for Freedom Over the Last 200 Years Or More" I'd be happy to read it so I might sleep-walk in a slightly more informed way.

gypsy
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Jun 14 2010 11:58
Ed wrote:
Actually, that link above doesn't work.. check this one out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vYJ6d9VPOo

That was really interesting especially about during WW2 specifically bombing working class German areas. Is there any truth in that? Don't get me wrong he's a white supremicist cunt but some of what he says is true.

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 12:10
Samotnaf wrote:
Hughes:
Quote:
Transcending "Left and Right" doesn't hold much interest to me. No offense, but it sounds like a bunch of intellectual masturbation. That said, if you you have a readable, brief account (the size of a Wikipedia page or less) of what it is you're talking about I'd be happy to read it so I might disagree with you in a more informed way.

Read:

Struggling for some independance of mind and spirit and struggle doesn't hold much interest for me. No offense, but I'm being offensive and complacent, cos I haven't even learnt how to masturbate yet, intellectually or otherwise. That said, if you have a soundbite-sized ad for the "Idiots Guide To The Theory & Practise of the Struggle for Freedom Over the Last 200 Years Or More" I'd be happy to read it so I might sleep-walk in a slightly more informed way.

Nice.

Mike Harman
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Jun 14 2010 12:42
allybaba wrote:
That was really interesting especially about during WW2 specifically bombing working class German areas. Is there any truth in that? Don't get me wrong he's a white supremicist cunt but some of what he says is true.

Wikipedia suggests that several genuine military targets in Dresden were never properly targeted - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Legal_considerations

that instead the city centre was targeted, and this included a refugee camp. That doesn't seem at all unlikely to me, of the sources quoted there I'd probably start with the Beevor.

Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 14 2010 13:55
Hughes wrote:
Samotnaf wrote:
Hughes:
Quote:
Transcending "Left and Right" doesn't hold much interest to me. No offense, but it sounds like a bunch of intellectual masturbation. That said, if you you have a readable, brief account (the size of a Wikipedia page or less) of what it is you're talking about I'd be happy to read it so I might disagree with you in a more informed way.

Read:

Struggling for some independance of mind and spirit and struggle doesn't hold much interest for me. No offense, but I'm being offensive and complacent, cos I haven't even learnt how to masturbate yet, intellectually or otherwise. That said, if you have a soundbite-sized ad for the "Idiots Guide To The Theory & Practise of the Struggle for Freedom Over the Last 200 Years Or More" I'd be happy to read it so I might sleep-walk in a slightly more informed way.

Nice.

For once, I think Satmonaf's attack here is warranted. Hughes, wtf are you doing here if you don't actually wanna hear people's responses? You ask questions and then refuse to hear the answers. Then you rather predictably get flamed and throw all the toys out the pram.

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 15:32
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
Hughes wrote:
Samotnaf wrote:
Hughes:
Quote:
Transcending "Left and Right" doesn't hold much interest to me. No offense, but it sounds like a bunch of intellectual masturbation. That said, if you you have a readable, brief account (the size of a Wikipedia page or less) of what it is you're talking about I'd be happy to read it so I might disagree with you in a more informed way.

Read:

Struggling for some independance of mind and spirit and struggle doesn't hold much interest for me. No offense, but I'm being offensive and complacent, cos I haven't even learnt how to masturbate yet, intellectually or otherwise. That said, if you have a soundbite-sized ad for the "Idiots Guide To The Theory & Practise of the Struggle for Freedom Over the Last 200 Years Or More" I'd be happy to read it so I might sleep-walk in a slightly more informed way.

Nice.

For once, I think Satmonaf's attack here is warranted. Hughes, wtf are you doing here if you don't actually wanna hear people's responses? You ask questions and then refuse to hear the answers. Then you rather predictably get flamed and throw all the toys out the pram.

No doubt you'd prefer I leave, but I'm very much interested in hearing people's responses. That doesn't mean I agree with all of them.

First, Satmonaf employs obvious straw-man arguments. Ho Chi Minh is not my "hero" and it's very rare I think in terms of "Good" and "Evil."

Second, Satmonaf seems to be spewing postmodern mumbo-jumbo. When he suggests that thinking in terms of "Left" and "Right" is irrelevant, I'm honestly not sure what he means. He's welcome to explain it to me, but if he sends me for answers elsewhere I stand by my request for a brief synopsis. I have a finite amount of time and would prefer to know something about a subject before deciding to dedicate myself to reading a full-length book that ends up bunk. That hardly seems like too much to ask if Satmonaf would honestly like me to engage his argument.

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Khawaga
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Jun 14 2010 15:46

Quite a few posters on this board uses the terms "left" and "right" to refer to different factions of capital. The alternative is extra-parliamentary class struggle.

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x359594
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Jun 14 2010 15:55
Samotnaf wrote:
...for all these supporters of left-wing captalism, merely shifting to right-wing forms isn't much of a change - they were always opportunist, totally lacking in integrity. Horowitz was an editor of Ramparts magazine, a crap populist journal in tune with, and perpetuator of, the typical lefty-leninist ideology of "The Revoution" at the time...

Your characterization of David Horowitz and his ilk is apt, but I can't agree with your evaluation of Ramparts.

To begin with, Ramparts started out as a liberal Roman Catholic magazine that gradually shifted to left commentary and analysis. Warren Hinckle was the editor for most of its life, and during its hay day Ramparts was one of the few national magazines in the US that provided accurate reportage of the anti-war movement and anti-draft movement. It gave the only accurate account of Peoples Park in Berkeley.

I still vividly remember its January 1967 issue with Dr. Benjamin Spock's article on the children victims of US bombing. I was 15 years old at the time and it was my first encounter with the human costs of the war.

Ramparts when seen in the context of its era was a valuable source of information for a lot of people and Horowitz didn't take over until the last phase of the magazine's life.

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Entdinglichung
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Jun 14 2010 16:19

some lesser known examples from Germany:

* Albert Walter: 1919 syndicalist "German Seemen League" & USPD, 1921 KPD, 1933-1934 imprisoned in KZ Fuhlsbüttel, after that, conversion to völkisch nationalism, 1939 author of a Nazi pamphlet titled "the English war and the German worker", 1949-1957 MP of the rightwing "German Party"

* Berthold Karwahne, KPD, 1926-1927 ultraleft opposition of the KPD, member of the Spartacusbund II around Pfemfert and Katz, ~ 1928 NSDAP, 1930-1945 MP, 1933 additionally administrator of expropriated trade union property

* Franz Krajewski (later Franz Land), around 1920 member of the FAUD, 1922 founding member of the NSDAP in Dortmund-Mengede, 1932-1933 member of the Prussian Diet, 1933-1945 MP

the latter two were the only high-ranking Nazis 1933-45 from a leftwing background

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jura
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Jun 14 2010 16:24

I guess you could say that Václav Havel, the former Czechoslovak dissident turned president, went from being "radical" to right-wing. His Power of the Powerless (link to English excerpts) is a lefty-humanist rant that has some weird self-management overtones to it. How exactly he got from there to humanitarian bombing is still unclear to me.

radicalgraffiti
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Jun 14 2010 16:27

afed artical on why we consider our selves out side of the left and right http://afed.org.uk/blog/historical/113-anarchist-federation-neither-left-nor-right.html

Boris Badenov
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Jun 14 2010 16:34
jura wrote:
I guess you could say that Václav Havel, the former Czechoslovak dissident turned president, went from being "radical" to right-wing. His Power of the Powerless (link to English excerpts) is a lefty-humanist rant that has some weird self-management overtones to it. How exactly he got from there to humanitarian bombing is still unclear to me.

Power of the Powerless is explicitly anti-Marxist, anti-class struggle "existentialist" bollocks. In it he literally claims that everyone is equally responsible for upholding a totalitarian system (a greengrocer is no better than a high-level party leader), and that if you change your way of thinking and start "living within the truth" (actual phrase that he uses), "democracy" will follow. Of course he's not completely supportive of Western democracy because it's too "materialistic."
Havel has always been a right-wing shitbag as far as I'm concerned.

Boris Badenov
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Jun 14 2010 16:43
Entdinglichung wrote:
some lesser known examples from Germany:

* Albert Walter: 1919 syndicalist "German Seemen League" & USPD, 1921 KPD, 1933-1934 imprisoned in KZ Fuhlsbüttel, after that, conversion to völkisch nationalism, 1939 author of a Nazi pamphlet titled "the English war and the German worker", 1949-1957 MP of the rightwing "German Party"

* Berthold Karwahne, KPD, 1926-1927 ultraleft opposition of the KPD, member of the Spartacusbund II around Pfemfert and Katz, ~ 1928 NSDAP, 1930-1945 MP, 1933 additionally administrator of expropriated trade union property

* Franz Krajewski (later Franz Land), around 1920 member of the FAUD, 1922 founding member of the NSDAP in Dortmund-Mengede, 1932-1933 member of the Prussian Diet, 1933-1945 MP

the latter two were the only high-ranking Nazis 1933-45 from a leftwing background

Those are interesting examples. What is particularly interesting is that most, if not all, of the people mentioned so far come either from quasi-apolitical syndicalism or Stalinism. Except for the accusations leveled at Guy Aldred, I don't see anyone switching from class-struggle anarchism to fascism or even right-wing liberalism. Sure Briand, whom I mentioned above, wrote some stuff for an anarchist journal, but he very quickly made the transition to parliamentary socialism, and from there to bourgeois liberalism. I wonder why this is. Anarchism is far from being error-proof, and anarchists are human beings like any others, but despite the many "betrayals" of anarchists who moved more to the centre of socialist politics, whether opportunistically or in good faith (this is another discussion), I can't think of any who actually turned Right.

Also, since you bring up these German turncoats, while jura referred to Havel above, I think an example of a "German Havel" is Wolf Biermann. Many of the so-called "dissident movement" of the Socialist Bloc fit this pattern I would argue.

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 17:26
radicalgraffiti wrote:
afed artical on why we consider our selves out side of the left and right http://afed.org.uk/blog/historical/113-anarchist-federation-neither-left-nor-right.html

That seems pretty semantic. I mean if one defines the "left" solely as the "left wing of capitalism,' as is done there, then sure, I hear you. But that's not the definition of the left as traditionally or popularly understood. Were I to put a poll in the field, asking where on the political spectrum were Karl Marx, Emma Goldman, and Noam Chomsky, most every would rightly say they were on the left.

As a side note it's hard for me to take any organization seriously which has a spelling error in the second sentence of an official statement:

Quote:
Ten years of relative growth and alleged prosperity has let us to where capitalists always lead us
Caiman del Barrio
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Jun 14 2010 17:31
Hughes wrote:
Caiman del Barrio wrote:
Hughes wrote:
Samotnaf wrote:
Hughes:
Quote:
Transcending "Left and Right" doesn't hold much interest to me. No offense, but it sounds like a bunch of intellectual masturbation. That said, if you you have a readable, brief account (the size of a Wikipedia page or less) of what it is you're talking about I'd be happy to read it so I might disagree with you in a more informed way.

Read:

Struggling for some independance of mind and spirit and struggle doesn't hold much interest for me. No offense, but I'm being offensive and complacent, cos I haven't even learnt how to masturbate yet, intellectually or otherwise. That said, if you have a soundbite-sized ad for the "Idiots Guide To The Theory & Practise of the Struggle for Freedom Over the Last 200 Years Or More" I'd be happy to read it so I might sleep-walk in a slightly more informed way.

Nice.

For once, I think Satmonaf's attack here is warranted. Hughes, wtf are you doing here if you don't actually wanna hear people's responses? You ask questions and then refuse to hear the answers. Then you rather predictably get flamed and throw all the toys out the pram.

No doubt you'd prefer I leave, but I'm very much interested in hearing people's responses. That doesn't mean I agree with all of them.

No, I'd prefer that you stopped fucking whining and actually engaged sincerely in debate. You've managed it in a few threads, but all too often, your pride gets dented and you refuse to actually discuss. You appear to prefer to make irrelevant High Fidelity Top Fives of favourite ingrowing toenails and whatnot.

Satmonaf, and Mike following him/her, have both attempted synopsise recuperation for you, as well as explaining the "left wing of capital" (which is actually synonymous with "the left wing" in many mainstream circles...check the etymology for one thing), yet you've consciously attempted to jettison discussion.

Add on your persecution complex, and you're a very frustrating poster at times.

Valeriano Orobó...
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Jun 14 2010 17:32
Entdinglichung wrote:
some lesser known examples from Germany:

* Albert Walter: 1919 syndicalist "German Seemen League" & USPD, 1921 KPD, 1933-1934 imprisoned in KZ Fuhlsbüttel, after that, conversion to völkisch nationalism, 1939 author of a Nazi pamphlet titled "the English war and the German worker", 1949-1957 MP of the rightwing "German Party"

* Berthold Karwahne, KPD, 1926-1927 ultraleft opposition of the KPD, member of the Spartacusbund II around Pfemfert and Katz, ~ 1928 NSDAP, 1930-1945 MP, 1933 additionally administrator of expropriated trade union property

* Franz Krajewski (later Franz Land), around 1920 member of the FAUD, 1922 founding member of the NSDAP in Dortmund-Mengede, 1932-1933 member of the Prussian Diet, 1933-1945 MP

the latter two were the only high-ranking Nazis 1933-45 from a leftwing background

Didn't Carls Schmitt and Goebbels have a left-wing background?

Boris Badenov
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Jun 14 2010 17:40
Valeriano Orobón Fernández wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
some lesser known examples from Germany:

* Albert Walter: 1919 syndicalist "German Seemen League" & USPD, 1921 KPD, 1933-1934 imprisoned in KZ Fuhlsbüttel, after that, conversion to völkisch nationalism, 1939 author of a Nazi pamphlet titled "the English war and the German worker", 1949-1957 MP of the rightwing "German Party"

* Berthold Karwahne, KPD, 1926-1927 ultraleft opposition of the KPD, member of the Spartacusbund II around Pfemfert and Katz, ~ 1928 NSDAP, 1930-1945 MP, 1933 additionally administrator of expropriated trade union property

* Franz Krajewski (later Franz Land), around 1920 member of the FAUD, 1922 founding member of the NSDAP in Dortmund-Mengede, 1932-1933 member of the Prussian Diet, 1933-1945 MP

the latter two were the only high-ranking Nazis 1933-45 from a leftwing background

Didn't Carls Schmitt and Goebbels have a left-wing background?

Goebbels was part of the Strasserite wing of the party, but AFAIK was never anything but a nazi.

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 17:56
Quote:
You appear to prefer to make irrelevant High Fidelity Top Fives of favourite ingrowing toenails and whatnot.

What?

Quote:
yet you've consciously attempted to jettison discussion.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm "jettisoning the conversation."

Quote:
you're a very frustrating poster at times.

I have similar feelings about you but I try not to make a big thing out of it.

petey
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Jun 14 2010 17:49
Hughes wrote:
As a side note it's hard for me to take any organization seriously which has a spelling error in the second sentence of an official statement:
Quote:
Ten years of relative growth and alleged prosperity has let us to where capitalists always lead us

i'm an open and notorious pedant and even i think that's petty. just send a pm pointing out the typo, i'm sure they'd be happy to correct it.

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jura
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Jun 14 2010 17:50
Vlad336 wrote:
Power of the Powerless is explicitly anti-Marxist, anti-class struggle "existentialist" bollocks.

Sure, but a lot of stuff like that passed as "leftist" or "radical" in the 60s-70s.

Valeriano Orobó...
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Jun 14 2010 18:41
Vlad336 wrote:
Valeriano Orobón Fernández wrote:
Entdinglichung wrote:
some lesser known examples from Germany:

* Albert Walter: 1919 syndicalist "German Seemen League" & USPD, 1921 KPD, 1933-1934 imprisoned in KZ Fuhlsbüttel, after that, conversion to völkisch nationalism, 1939 author of a Nazi pamphlet titled "the English war and the German worker", 1949-1957 MP of the rightwing "German Party"

* Berthold Karwahne, KPD, 1926-1927 ultraleft opposition of the KPD, member of the Spartacusbund II around Pfemfert and Katz, ~ 1928 NSDAP, 1930-1945 MP, 1933 additionally administrator of expropriated trade union property

* Franz Krajewski (later Franz Land), around 1920 member of the FAUD, 1922 founding member of the NSDAP in Dortmund-Mengede, 1932-1933 member of the Prussian Diet, 1933-1945 MP

the latter two were the only high-ranking Nazis 1933-45 from a leftwing background

Didn't Carls Schmitt and Goebbels have a left-wing background?

Goebbels was part of the Strasserite wing of the party, but AFAIK was never anything but a nazi.

Thanks Vlad. Perhaps they simply flirted with the left as many would-be nazis did in the 20's. I'm thinking of Marinetti

BTW I almost forgot Jacques Doriot, from promising stalinist to fascist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Doriot

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georgestapleton
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Jun 14 2010 18:26

My favourite is Jim Cramer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6NUIf_bGjs

Seemingly he edited a leninst paper in college.

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888
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Jun 14 2010 18:33
Samotnaf wrote:
You could say that the vast majority of the anarchists in the French CGT, and Kropotkin himself, moved from"left" to "right" - by supporting the First World War. In the case of the CGT, I think the form of opposition (violent strikes, sabotage) gave it a radical image which belied its reformist content, and often hid or ignored political questions in favour of purely economic ones (like later, the CNT in Spain - with its separation of economic questions from political ones ). There were even a few anarchists who "critically" supported the UN in the 1991 Gulf War.

The majority of anarchists in the CGT didn't support WWI, and the CNT didn't generally separate economic and political questions. confused

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 19:03
georgestapleton wrote:
My favourite is Jim Cramer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6NUIf_bGjs

Seemingly he edited a leninst paper in college.

http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2009/10/jim-cramer-of-cnbc-communist.html

petey
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Jun 14 2010 19:43
georgestapleton wrote:
Seemingly he edited a leninst paper in college.

i had no idea.

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Felix Frost
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Jun 14 2010 20:58

Pierre Guillaume and some of his comrades from La Vieille Taupe in Paris went from ultra-left to holocaust revisionism.

radicalgraffiti
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Jun 14 2010 21:11
Hughes wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
afed artical on why we consider our selves out side of the left and right http://afed.org.uk/blog/historical/113-anarchist-federation-neither-left-nor-right.html

That seems pretty semantic. I mean if one defines the "left" solely as the "left wing of capitalism,' as is done there, then sure, I hear you.

of cause it's semantic, what else would could it be?

Quote:
But that's not the definition of the left as traditionally or popularly understood. Were I to put a poll in the field, asking where on the political spectrum were Karl Marx, Emma Goldman, and Noam Chomsky, most every would rightly say they were on the left.

most people wouldn't have heard of emma or noam, and if you have its much more accurate to say that marx was a communist, goldman was an anarchist and chomsky is a linguist.
the left is a really vague term and includes state socialist and social democrats, saying someone is on the left tells us nothing about there politics.

Quote:
As a side note it's hard for me to take any organization seriously which has a spelling error in the second sentence of an official statement:
Quote:
Ten years of relative growth and alleged prosperity has let us to where capitalists always lead us

fixed, your the first person to notice that, and its a blog post not an official statement.

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 21:20
petey wrote:
Hughes wrote:
As a side note it's hard for me to take any organization seriously which has a spelling error in the second sentence of an official statement:
Quote:
Ten years of relative growth and alleged prosperity has let us to where capitalists always lead us

i'm an open and notorious pedant and even i think that's petty. just send a pm pointing out the typo, i'm sure they'd be happy to correct it.

I didn't realize it was his personal site. If I'd known I wouldn't have been such a jerk about it.

radicalgraffiti
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Jun 14 2010 21:34
Hughes wrote:
petey wrote:
Hughes wrote:
As a side note it's hard for me to take any organization seriously which has a spelling error in the second sentence of an official statement:
Quote:
Ten years of relative growth and alleged prosperity has let us to where capitalists always lead us

i'm an open and notorious pedant and even i think that's petty. just send a pm pointing out the typo, i'm sure they'd be happy to correct it.

I didn't realize it was his personal site. If I'd known I wouldn't have been such a jerk about it.

it's not my personal site, its the afed blog which is all members can submit content to. I can fix things cause I'm one of the moderators.

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Hughes
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Jun 14 2010 22:09
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Hughes wrote:
petey wrote:
Hughes wrote:
As a side note it's hard for me to take any organization seriously which has a spelling error in the second sentence of an official statement:
Quote:
Ten years of relative growth and alleged prosperity has let us to where capitalists always lead us

i'm an open and notorious pedant and even i think that's petty. just send a pm pointing out the typo, i'm sure they'd be happy to correct it.

I didn't realize it was his personal site. If I'd known I wouldn't have been such a jerk about it.

it's not my personal site, its the afed blog which is all members can submit content to. I can fix things cause I'm one of the moderators.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I didn't mean to be such a prick.