Did the collective farms in anarchist Spain have any kind of animal welfare standards?

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Fleur
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Jan 28 2015 11:30
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Vegetarianism and 'naturalism' did have quite a few adherents amongst the Spanish anarchists, spiritualism was also de reger as well as other experiments in lifestylism

The same can be said across all ideologies but it only really becomes annoying when it degenerates into self-righteous why don't you eat your dog arguments.

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AES
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Jan 28 2015 11:41

This is a thread about animal husbandry, no-one has made "annoying when it degenerates into self-righteous why don't you eat your dog" arguements anyway

Fleur
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Jan 28 2015 11:42

Oh yeah?

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Serge Forward wrote:
What if it was your cat/dog/hamster/bunny rabbit/other pet! Hypocrite!!!!!!111
Just thought I'd get that one in first wink
Thanks for saving me the time of saying it myself, but I wouldn't have put so many 1's after my exclamation marks.

A thread about website tracking went that way. A thread about cultural appropriation took that turn. I suppose it was only a matter of time before a thread on Spain did too.

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Jan 28 2015 11:46

Of course, unreasonable moralism and guilt tripping can be taken on. I do think that through opposition to tradition a reasonable discussion can be had about vegetarianism as well as the treatment of animals specifically and in general.

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DekuScrub3
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Jan 28 2015 11:55
Mr. Jolly wrote:
Barcelona also banned bullfighting during the civil war iirc.

Fascinating! Would love to get a source on that.

Fleur
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Jan 28 2015 11:56

But it never is a reasonable discussion. The next thing you know someone is telling you you're a hypocrite for not eating your dog and throwing around words such as murder and torture. The comment was clearly alluding to a previous thread where I had to justify not eating my dog.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jan 28 2015 13:28
Fleur wrote:
Quote:
Vegetarianism and 'naturalism' did have quite a few adherents amongst the Spanish anarchists, spiritualism was also de reger as well as other experiments in lifestylism

The same can be said across all ideologies but it only really becomes annoying when it degenerates into self-righteous why don't you eat your dog arguments.

No I was responding you your implication that life was focussed solely on fighting. Free love, feminism, naturism, spiritualist practices and a myriad of others were out there as well.

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Serge Forward
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Jan 28 2015 12:12
DekuScrub3 wrote:
Mr. Jolly wrote:
Barcelona also banned bullfighting during the civil war iirc.

Fascinating! Would love to get a source on that.

Not sure if it was actually banned, but:

George Orwell in Homage to Catalonia wrote:
On a ruinous wall I came upon a poster dating from the previous year and announcing that ‘six handsome bulls’ would be killed in the arena on such and such a date. How forlorn its faded colours looked. Where were the handsome bulls and the handsome bull-fighters now? It appeared that even in Barcelona there were hardly any bullfights nowadays - for some reason all the best matadors were Fascists.

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Jan 28 2015 12:14
Fleur wrote:
But it never is a reasonable discussion. The next thing you know someone is telling you you're a hypocrite for not eating your dog and throwing around words such as murder and torture. The comment was clearly alluding to a previous thread where I had to justify not eating my dog.

Mmm... dog....

augustynww
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Jan 28 2015 12:16
DekuScrub3 wrote:
I'd also be interested in welfare standards during other revolutionary periods in different locales where animal agriculture was collectivized.

bolsheviks banned vegetarianism and dissolved vegetarian societies in Russia after the revolution,with their leaders arrested I don't know exactly when though. According to bolsheviks it was pseudo-scientific bourgeois ideology

snipfool
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Jan 28 2015 12:25
Fleur wrote:
I have no sources for this, just a hunch

Basically, someone has a niche interest in something you know nothing about, so just take the piss.

edit: Also amusing how you continue to go on about the impossibility of reasonable discussion, one past after OP makes a very calm, single reply to one of the few posts that bothered to take it seriously.

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Mr. Jolly
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Jan 28 2015 12:41
augustynww wrote:
DekuScrub3 wrote:
I'd also be interested in welfare standards during other revolutionary periods in different locales where animal agriculture was collectivized.

bolsheviks banned vegetarianism and dissolved vegetarian societies in Russia after the revolution,with their leaders arrested I don't know exactly when though. According to bolsheviks it was pseudo-scientific bourgeois ideology

Thats the difference anarchists in spain wanted free thinking critical individuals, russia wanted factory fodder. I dont call that bourgeois.

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Jan 28 2015 12:43
snipfool wrote:
Basically, someone has a niche interest in something you know nothing about, so just take the piss.

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Jan 28 2015 12:45
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bolsheviks banned vegetarianism and dissolved vegetarian societies in Russia after the revolution,with their leaders arrested I don't know exactly when though. According to bolsheviks it was pseudo-scientific bourgeois ideology

Yeah, I've written about that. Definitely wish I had more specific info though vis a vis the date, etc.

Fleur
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Jan 28 2015 12:46
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So, if someone cares about the chickens they can't also care about the humans. Interesting.

It was this comment which got to me. Along with the hypocrite comment (note to Serge, I am aware that you were saying it in jest. The other poster not so much.) Yeah, I get a bit irritated but there again I did start a thread a while back about why certain behaviours are considered racist micro-aggressions and somebody immediately started comparing it to bullfighting, so my expectations are pretty low anyway.
Read back, it wasn't me who came back after Alias Recluse's very good post. I din't have anything further to add at that point.

vicent
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Jan 28 2015 14:18

Sorry boomerang I do sympathise but I found this too funny ...

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Mr. Jolly
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Jan 28 2015 14:25

Yeah and if spanish anarchists appeared today they may ask, "Where are the seances?" or "You know coffee is anti revolutionary!"

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Jan 28 2015 14:33

I've heard about caffeine and alcohol but sceances?!?! You sure that's not something just made up by stalinists or trotskyists?

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Jan 28 2015 14:43

I was speaking to a spainish academic a few years ago who was researching the phenomenon, apparently its was relatively common, seances even happened in montjuic.

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Jan 28 2015 14:51

Anyway,

Quote:
Spanish anarcho-syndicalism had long been concerned to safeguard the autonomy of what it called “affinity groups.” There were many adepts of naturism and vegetarianism among its members, especially among the poor peasants of the south. Both these ways of living were considered suitable for the transformation of the human being in preparation for a libertarian society. At the Saragossa congress the members did not forget to consider the fate of groups of naturists and nudists, “unsuited to industrialization.” As these groups would be unable to supply all their own needs, the congress anticipated that their delegates to the meetings of the confederation of communes would be able to negotiate special economic agreements with the other agricultural and industrial communes. Does this make us smile? On the eve of a vast, bloody, social transformation, the CNT did not think it foolish to try to meet the infinitely varied aspirations of individual human beings.

Daniel Guérin
Anarchism: From Theory to Practice

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Jan 28 2015 15:06

Guérin, as a former Trotskyist (favoured by some platformists for his intro to "Anarchism" which undervalues anarcho-syndicalism and the political capacity of the working class itself, also has Stirner as a central standard bearer of anarchism. In the quoted passage he refers to affinity groups being significant for anarcho-syndicalism as CNT, but there is no anarcho-syndicalist organisation to my knowledge that has ever structured itself (as a class organisation) by means of affinity groups. Also Woodcock and Marshall in their crap bourgeois histories of anarchism also try connect it to anything and everything.

boomerang
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Jan 28 2015 16:29
Fleur wrote:
By the way, while you are calling me a hypocrite, what are you wearing? I'm sure it's animal free but is it cruelty free? Human cruelty, in particular.

As I wrote on the foie gras thread:

"The hardship faced by workers in production is addressed through class struggle and revolution. We liberate ourselves. Animals can't organize for liberation. Change for them can only happen through changing cultural attitudes about whether it's acceptable to torture them (or take their lives) for food, given there are other food options."

And changing those cultural attitudes comes through discussion like this, as well as making different food choices.

Fleur wrote:
But it never is a reasonable discussion. The next thing you know someone is telling you you're a hypocrite for not eating your dog and throwing around words such as murder and torture. The comment was clearly alluding to a previous thread where I had to justify not eating my dog.

I used the word torture on a thread that turned to a discussion about foie gras. You can read the description of what happens to birds to make foie gras here: http://libcom.org/forums/feedback-content/couple-questions-admin-1101201...

I'd love to hear why the word torture doesn't apply there. And can you watch the Meet Your Meat video (only 13 minutes) and still honestly believe the word torture doesn't apply to animals used for dairy, meat, or eggs?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32IDVdgmzKA

Fleur
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Jan 28 2015 16:39

Oh, I knew it would be only a matter of time before a PETA video was posted up.
I should have just stopped at "Oh, for god's sake."

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Jan 28 2015 16:42

Can any argument for and against vegetarianism take place on the other threads (noted in links above) - this discussion is about anarchism and animal husbandry.

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Noah Fence
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Jan 28 2015 17:06

I've no interest in getting embroiled in the rights or wrongs of animal use/abuse but it is a simple fact that it is impossible to mention animals on Libcom without it getting leapt upon by either piss takers or zealots that have no ability to see the difference between someone that is interested in a reasonable discussion and an animal lib obsessed wackjob. Verily, thou protesteth too much about sums it up for me.

Fleur
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Jan 28 2015 17:56

Webby, reasonable discussion on this subject here includes calling someone an ignorant shit for liking ice cream and posting up animal cruelty porn from the airheads at PETA. It also includes turning a joke about foie gras into an excuse to preach the fuck out of the subject and turn a discussion about racist behaviour into an argument against wearing animal products. So expect a knee-jerk reaction to this sort of inanity.