Examples of individualists/egoists being twats/snitches/scabs etc

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888
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Oct 19 2011 18:19
Examples of individualists/egoists being twats/snitches/scabs etc

I need to satisfy my Unique Ego and win an argument on facebook... but also, there are lots of people in Seattle who love Stirner for some godforsaken reason, so I would like to ask libcommers to please post any examples of massive fuckups caused by individualist fools... I think some people in the Bonnot gang might have been informers, there was someone in Argentina but I cna't remember the details. Help please!

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plasmatelly
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Oct 19 2011 18:56

The best tale about Stirner I read was that his wife wouldn't allow him to be a Stirnerite!

wojtek
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Oct 19 2011 19:08

Are you trying to parody me? And who's Stirner, I'm guessing he/ she is shit?

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Oct 19 2011 19:12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Stirner

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Karetelnik
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Oct 19 2011 19:13

From Chapter 8 of Peter Arshinov's History of the Makhnovist Movement (found in the libcom library):

Quote:
Among the agents provocateurs, there are some who have had connections with the anarchist movement, for example: Peter Sidorov, Tima-lvan Petrakov, Zhenya Ermakova (Anna Sukhova), Chaldon and Burtsev. Their links to the anarchist movement were mainly military. We have also been informed that one of these agents provocateurs is "Big Nicholas" - an individualist who last year edited the journal K Svetu (Toward the Light) in Khar'kov, and who is also known as Vasili.

There are no limits to the treachery of this band of provocateurs. Having learned many of the clandestine names and addresses of anarchists at the time of Denikin's invasion, they burst into the comrades' quarters and carried out outright pogroms; it goes without saying that all the anarchists whom they knew, and who were more or less hostile to the Bolshevik authorities, were arrested and shot.

Black Badger
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Oct 19 2011 20:47

Don't you also wish to know who among anarchist communists and anarcho-syndicalists were snitches too? The most prominent I can think of is the execrable Diego Abad de Santillan, who tipped off the cops to a plan to take the gold from the Bank of Spain before most of it was shipped off to Stalin.

Are you trying to say that anarchist individualists have a higher propensity to be creeps than any other self-identified anarchist?

whatisinevidence
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Oct 19 2011 21:37

Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

tastybrain
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Oct 19 2011 21:44
whatisinevidence wrote:
Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

Lol wut? Just cause he's not talking about that one issue it's a "diversion"?

nastyned
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Oct 19 2011 22:08
Black Badger wrote:
Don't you also wish to know who among anarchist communists and anarcho-syndicalists were snitches too?

Would that help him win his argument on facebook?

wojtek
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Oct 19 2011 23:42
tastybrain wrote:
whatisinevidence wrote:
Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

Lol wut? Just cause he's not talking about that one issue it's a "diversion"?

I thought whatisinevidence meant JD off Scrubs...?

Personally, I think Jello is for winners! wink

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Arbeiten
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Oct 20 2011 00:00
tastybrain wrote:
whatisinevidence wrote:
Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

Lol wut? Just cause he's not talking about that one issue it's a "diversion"?

Single Issues politricks roll eyes

batswill
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Oct 20 2011 04:00
888 wrote:
I need to satisfy my Unique Ego and win an argument on facebook... but also, there are lots of people in Seattle who love Stirner for some godforsaken reason, so I would like to ask libcommers to please post any examples of massive fuckups caused by individualist fools... I think some people in the Bonnot gang might have been informers, there was someone in Argentina but I cna't remember the details. Help please!

The conflation of " individualists/egoists " with "narcissistic/selfishness" by you is outrageous!
For a start, in the original translation, there is no German word for ego, the closest term used by Max was "self-aware cognition of individual sovereignty" . That's why he went to such great lengtys to explain his ideas. Winning an argument is as narcissistic/dominant as it gets comrade.

whatisinevidence
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Oct 20 2011 04:33
tastybrain wrote:
whatisinevidence wrote:
Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

Lol wut? Just cause he's not talking about that one issue it's a "diversion"?

I thought the connection was clear. 'One of us' is implicated in horrible shit (which 888 dismisses as not important, etc), so rather than deal with this problem let's talk about all the terrible things 'they' do. It's pure projection.

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Tojiah
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Oct 20 2011 04:54
whatisinevidence wrote:
tastybrain wrote:
whatisinevidence wrote:
Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

Lol wut? Just cause he's not talking about that one issue it's a "diversion"?

I thought the connection was clear. 'One of us' is implicated in horrible shit (which 888 dismisses as not important, etc), so rather than deal with this problem let's talk about all the terrible things 'they' do. It's pure projection.

Some people on this forum did not register a week ago to harp on a single issue, and you can't expect the whole userbase to wait with bated breath until this one debacle is played out. Get over yourself.

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888
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Oct 20 2011 17:36
whatisinevidence wrote:
tastybrain wrote:
whatisinevidence wrote:
Wow, this is a really horrible diversion from the discussion of J.D.

Shameless.

Lol wut? Just cause he's not talking about that one issue it's a "diversion"?

I thought the connection was clear. 'One of us' is implicated in horrible shit (which 888 dismisses as not important, etc), so rather than deal with this problem let's talk about all the terrible things 'they' do. It's pure projection.

"One of us"? I'm in the US, and an anarchist not an ultraleftist, I really don't care about the pathetic bickerings of ultraleft journals.

Anyway, the fact is that the "I'm a special snowflake, fuck everyone else" attitude that can (not necessarily will) be engendered by individualism does sometimes lead to snitching, I remember reading something in a book about turn of the century French anarchism, but I don't have that book anymore.

Quote:
The conflation of " individualists/egoists " with "narcissistic/selfishness" by you is outrageous!

Take a little read of e.g. "Towards the Creative Nothing" (a book that I like, by the way, not that I agree with all of it), and the tone of narcissistic selfishness is obvious

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Oct 21 2011 02:36

Snitching isn't limited to individualists, I'd focus on the economic systems American "individualist anarchists" advocate (at least here in America they're all fucked in the head).

http://anti-libertarian-libertarianism.blogspot.com/2011/08/capitalist-ideology-with-mask.html

They basically cherry pick Tucker, Spooner and Stirner and mix them with Austrian economics (capitalism). It's a giant mindphuc.

bastarx
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Oct 21 2011 03:32

I think 888 is referring more to the Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed type anti-capitalist individualists than anarcho-capitalists.

satawal
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Oct 21 2011 11:40

Ok 888, so you started this thread with a question asked in a self mocking manner but this is still at best a investigation that at a fundamental level can have no meaningful result, and at worst, an attempt at ‘snitchjacketing’ an anarchist tendency within past and present parts of our class. I know how these weird abstract internet/face book discussions can evolve but I would ask that you think seriously about what you are implying about dead and living anarchists.

In your post you ask for us to “please post any examples of massive fuckups caused by individualist fools” the practical examples of which you flesh out in the title as ‘examples of individualists/egoists being twats/snitches/scabs etc’.

I’ll just take the ‘snitches’ issue though it applies equally I think to all the others. Presumably the implication from what you are asking (I understand I might be wrong here, sorry for putting words in your mouth), is that some anarchists theoretical individualism may predispose them to be more likely than other (non-individualist) anarchists to snitch. Your request then is looking for an evidential basis behind this assertion. Alternatively I suppose your implication may be slightly different, i.e. those more pre-disposed to snitch by character or class position are more likely to be drawn to individualism.

If either of these hypotheses are what you are starting with then there is simply no way you can prove them. That’s not to say with a choice few examples you couldn’t ‘win’ the argument but the case would remain unproven. One would need to do an analysis of (known) historical snitching within anarchism, comparing the total done by individualists with that done by non-individualists as, for example, percentages of their total adherents. For a whole set of reasons from the obvious difficulties in working out who is in which category (Emma Goldman?), to issues around vast missing data (i.e. we will probably never know about most snitching) this unfortunately does not seem to be an answerable question.

Further reading between the lines and putting words in to your mouth (apologies) I presume maybe the implication is that individualists supposed active lack of collective identity leads them open to snitching if given the choice between serving their own personal interests and that of their class or some wider other. Living in the UK there is solid recent experience of vast levels of snitching within working class communities engaged in civil war in Northern Ireland and the associated communities on the mainland. Despite incredible levels of self identification with the cause/the nation/religion/their working class catholic community etc the IRA and the wider republican movement was riven with snitches. The primary reason (though by no means sole reason) for this being the sheer horror facing individuals when captured/threatened by state forces. A collective identity is little guarantee in such moments.

In conclusion if one is interested in decreasing snitching or in critiquing individualism this is not a helpful argument to develop.

Sorry if that all sounded a bit put down ish. It just reminded me of the style of discussion and cherry picking of our history/people’s lives that upsets me. Maybe I shouldn’t be on internet forums…

batswill
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Oct 21 2011 15:45
888 wrote:
Quote:
The conflation of " individualists/egoists " with "narcissistic/selfishness" by you is outrageous!

Take a little read of e.g. "Towards the Creative Nothing" (a book that I like, by the way, not that I agree with all of it), and the tone of narcissistic selfishness is obvious

I took a little read of Novatore, they were hard times in Italy then.
Anyway, I think I'll go back to the entemology,,,

Egotism -- Obtrusive and excessive reference to and emphasis upon oneself and one's own importance, in conversation or in writing.

Egoism -- A less common word, is used especially in philosophy, ethics, or metaphysics, where it emphasizes the importance of self in relation to other things.

This is where the conflation originates. Definitions of individuality are confusing, Even Neo-lithic peoples conformed to their clan leader. Is a solitary Neanderthal anymore an individual than a modern day hermit? I digress.
But egoists like Stirner or Novatore did not behave in a narcissistic/selfish way. What you describe as " ,,and the tone of narcissistic selfishness is obvious" is actually confident introspective musing.

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Oct 21 2011 16:11

some people on the fringes of Stirnerism (tautological expression, or?) in Germany during the 1920ies deeply admired what they regarded as "strong, independent and unadapted" personalities: Hitler, Nietzsche, Lenin, etc.

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Oct 21 2011 19:08

Satawal - good post.

This has nothing to do with any current conflicts aside from my own internet arguing, by the way - that's why I posted it in the history section.

I was looking for stuff in relation to an argument that was sparked by a quote

James L. Walker wrote:
I am indifferent to the annihilation of the serfs whose consent enslaves me along with themselves. I am at war with natural society, and "all's fair" in war, although all is not expedient.

Fortunately for me, I found some truly repulsive arguments written by the same guy - http://libertarian-labyrinth.org/archive/Killing_Chinese

dinosavros
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Oct 21 2011 19:11

Paradoxically the few anarcho-individualists I have worked with on political projects tended to act with a lot more honesty and responsibility than a lot of communists/social-anarchists. It is similar to how a lot of atheists are much more moral than christians although on the surface you would expect the opposite.

Strange thread.

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Oct 22 2011 00:24
dinosavros wrote:
Paradoxically the few anarcho-individualists I have worked with on political projects tended to act with a lot more honesty and responsibility than a lot of communists/social-anarchists. It is similar to how a lot of atheists are much more moral than christians although on the surface you would expect the opposite.

Strange thread.

I have actually found the opposite and sometimes been a lot more comfortable among christians than atheists, but yeah, wrong place wrong time wink

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Oct 22 2011 19:30
Arbeiten wrote:
dinosavros wrote:
Paradoxically the few anarcho-individualists I have worked with on political projects tended to act with a lot more honesty and responsibility than a lot of communists/social-anarchists. It is similar to how a lot of atheists are much more moral than christians although on the surface you would expect the opposite.

Strange thread.

I have actually found the opposite and sometimes been a lot more comfortable among christians than atheists, but yeah, wrong place wrong time ;)

Everyone is full of shit. Welcome to earth.

jacobian
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Oct 25 2011 21:30

If libcom can't even give individualism a good kicking then bourgeois ideological hegemony is really worse than I thought. wink

Snitching is something one would expect from narcissism. Nachayev had a list of revolutionaries in Russia and there is speculation that he made this known to authorities in an attempt to "radicalise" them. Vera Zasulich was one of the people arrested during the time period, and it may have been due to Nachayev. I think I've also read something about the Bonnot Gang members informing on each other but I don't remember where.

But isn't all the incredibly stupid violent heroic crap enough? Bonnot Gang, Ravachol, Nachayev etc.