Makhnovists

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Feighnt
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Jan 6 2007 08:55
x357997 wrote:
Feighnt wrote:

and then, there's also their attitude to soldiers they took prisoner... officers were pretty well executed, guaranteed... all the rank and file, though, were given the option of joining the insurgent army, or going free back to their homes. and, amazingly, this was more than just talk... they actually did let thousands of captured soldiers go (some of whom would just be collected back up into whichever army they originally came from, if they were found, but that's hardly the fault of the Makhnovists). in comparison, i dont believe any of the other forces fighting in the civil war dared to do such a thing - and, typically, officers would be treated much better than rank and file troops.

Thats a crap idea for the war effort.

which do you mean? letting all the rank and file go? or executing officers?

both of these actually had a certain interplay which gave genuine military advantages to the Makhnovists, oddly (certainly had some disadvantages, but definite advantages anyway).

(i'm also not fond of the idea of people leading a war while drunk - though it's been done a lot, and, traditionally, various armed forces have used liquor to calm the nerves of soldiers who are, naturally, going through awful things. it was only fairly shortly ago in history - a bit after WWII i think? - that the British Navy completely eliminated rum rations).

David UK
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Jan 6 2007 11:22

can anyone translate this reproduction??

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888
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Jan 6 2007 15:57

There was, in about 2000, a discussion on the flag.blackened.net bulletin boards, and someone made a translation of the banner. The top word is "DEATH". The rest, I've forgotten, but a slavic-speaking member of these boards should be able to give a good approximation.

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boozemonarchy
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Jan 7 2007 07:42
Feighnt wrote:

(i'm also not fond of the idea of people leading a war while drunk - though it's been done a lot, and, traditionally, various armed forces have used liquor to calm the nerves of soldiers who are, naturally, going through awful things. it was only fairly shortly ago in history - a bit after WWII i think? - that the British Navy completely eliminated rum rations).

well, if your addicted to the shit, then its probably a bad idea to try to shake that monkey in the middle of a war.

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boozemonarchy
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Jan 7 2007 22:38

When you got the shakes its gotta be fucking rough aiming that rifle at some white, eh?

Feighnt
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Jan 8 2007 01:56
bozemananarchy wrote:
When you got the shakes its gotta be fucking rough aiming that rifle at some white, eh?

well, yeah, but since when did drunkenness increase your sniping skill? tongue

a plus to not drinking is, eventually the shakes will go away.

besides, though, you need to consider other things... for one, being drunk would also make it more likely that you'd shoot one of your own fellows...

what strikes me as more frightening, however, is your treatment of captives or the civilian population. soldiers, militians, whatever... unleash a ton of fighters into a city - when they're DRUNK!... you're bound to have outrages. hardly actions befitting a people's revolutionary military body.

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Jan 8 2007 02:20
Feighnt wrote:

well, yeah, but since when did drunkenness increase your sniping skill? tongue

it certainly does not

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what strikes me as more frightening, however, is your treatment of captives or the civilian population

my treatment? i'm confused, i've never unleased drunken miltias on a civilian population. Although I have, in a joking manner (i'm sorry you never caught on) talked about certain revolutionaries being drunk while in combat. I thought it was kinda funny, if this type of humor is not of your taste, my sincere apologies.

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unleash a ton of fighters into a city - when they're DRUNK!... you're bound to have outrages

I agree. I think of berlin when the russians got there in this case.

Feighnt
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Jan 8 2007 02:34
bozemananarchy wrote:

my treatment? i'm confused, i've never unleased drunken miltias on a civilian population. Although I have, in a joking manner (i'm sorry you never caught on) talked about certain revolutionaries being drunk while in combat. I thought it was kinda funny, if this type of humor is not of your taste, my sincere apologies.

whoops! i think we had a misunderstanding there! embarrassed i wasnt trying to accuse you of anything. when i said "your treatment," i didnt actually mean "you," i was just talking in the manner of the "general you"... i probably should've said "one's treatment" or whatever. bad wording, sorry!

and, for the record - i didnt actually realize you were joking about the drunkenness stuff embarrassed i wasnt all that offended by it or anything, dont get me wrong, i just thought it was a bit silly.

you'll have to forgive me for thinking you were serious - some people defend drinking and drunkenness as if it were a "holy" virtue or something! (like a guy on another messageboard, who got really defensive and argumentative when the people on the board told him that driving whilst drunk was certainly not cool, and that he should stop it. he defended it to the very last post!).

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Jan 8 2007 02:41
Feighnt wrote:
whoops! i think we had a misunderstanding there! embarrassed i wasnt trying to accuse you of anything. when i said "your treatment," i didnt actually mean "you," i was just talking in the manner of the "general you"...

Do you mean General Yu?? He may well have been responsible for such atrocities.

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Jan 8 2007 05:22
Feighnt wrote:

whoops! i think we had a misunderstanding there! embarrassed i wasnt trying to accuse you of anything. when i said "your treatment," i didnt actually mean "you," i was just talking in the manner of the "general you"... i probably should've said "one's treatment" or whatever. bad wording, sorry!

no worries Feighnt, language is a strange and fucked up thing, subject to an individuals interpatation and mood when said individual reads or hears something. I was just confused, but now its all clear. No worries, really!

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and, for the record - i didnt actually realize you were joking about the drunkenness stuff i wasnt all that offended by it or anything, dont get me wrong, i just thought it was a bit silly.

your misunderstanding is absolutly my fault. i apparently suck at joking. Is there a list of the smiley codes somewhere? If I had those then I don't think it would have been a problem. I love a good history discussion, and it was probably inappropriate for me to be joking of such things as lack of disipline (drunkeness) during a time when the workers where really damn close to ditching the old double yoke. I haven't been around libcom long enough to get a good gage on how the different forums and their posters like to operate. I suppose I'm use to a less serious enviroment with more joking and fucking around. A serious history discussion is priceless, sorry i muddied the waters.

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you'll have to forgive me for thinking you were serious - some people defend drinking and drunkenness as if it were a "holy" virtue or something! (like a guy on another messageboard, who got really defensive and argumentative when the people on the board told him that driving whilst drunk was certainly not cool, and that he should stop it. he defended it to the very last post!).

no forgiving neccessary, my fault. I love a good ale or thick stout, but binge consumption is certianly no virtue. This other guys defensiveness is indicative of a drinking problem I reckon. Drinking and driving is a terrifing problem where I live. In montana allegedly 1 and 5 drivers regularly drive drunk. I once was involved in a horrific rollover accident as a passenger in a car piloted by a drunk driver on a sketch ass mountain road. Lesson well learned i'll tell you what (don't cruise with drunks inless your the pilot and giving them a ride!). Driving drunk really isn't cool at all, any argument made in favor was most likely made while drunk, and can be brushed as drunken babble.

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boozemonarchy
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Jan 8 2007 05:39

here is a relevent quote from Mr. Makhno concerning our recent discussion of drunkeness during a revolutionary period.

Quote:
Responsibility and discipline must not frighten the revolutionary. They are the travelling companions of the practice of social anarchism.

Delo Truda, N°7-8, December 1925-January 1926, p.6.

i myself see the truth in what is said in the above quote.

But anyhow, does anybody know details of the action he participated in as a young man that landed his ass in jail for a good stint before he got released and went to the Ukraine to cause some trouble? I'm way ignorant on this subject.

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Jan 8 2007 05:48
bozemananarchy wrote:
here is a relevent quote from Mr. Makhno concerning our recent discussion of drunkeness during a revolutionary period.

looking back, i fucked this one up bad. A strong focus before, during and after the revolutionary period is of equal importance. If you don't got one in the "before", you'll never get there. If you don't have one during, the revolution will fall into reformist hands. If you can't keep one after, it will certainaly be doomed. I think that asshole B. Franklin said something like, "the price of freedom is persistant vigilance" or something like that.

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Jan 8 2007 17:03

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Jan 8 2007 17:20
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Is there a list of the smiley codes somewhere? If I had those then I don't think it would have been a problem.

sorry people, should have looked around somemore myself. I finally found them in the obvious place. embarrassed

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Jan 8 2007 17:37

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Jan 9 2007 06:12

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Feighnt
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Jan 9 2007 06:40

well, first off - dont worry about anything, it was just a simple misunderstanding, happens all the time on the internet - neither of us was really in the wrong. and, no worries about putting humour into your posts (even in serious enough topics)... it certainly doesnt stop me from doing it pretty often tongue

bozemananarchy wrote:

But anyhow, does anybody know details of the action he participated in as a young man that landed his ass in jail for a good stint before he got released and went to the Ukraine to cause some trouble? I'm way ignorant on this subject.

i checked back into Skirda's book...

Makhno got involved in an Anarchist group in Gulyai-Polye (which, btw, was where he was also born). this group did propaganda, as is expected, but they also took a typical policy for Russian Anarchists (and other radicals) of the time, which involved expropriational thefts and executions of authority figures. something Skirda quotes, which was apparently from the "indictment drawn up by the prosecution of the Odessa field court martial" against the Gulyai-Polye group lists these actions:

Quote:
-On September 5, 1906 in Gulyai-Polye, an attack upon the home of the businessman Pleschiner by three individuals armed with revolvers and with faces blackened
-On October 10, a fresh attack in Gulyai-Polye upon another businessman Bruk, by four individuals, faces concealed by paper masks, who, brandishing revolvers and bombs, demanded 500 rubles for the "starving."
-A little later, a third attack upon a wealthy local industrialist, Kerner, by four individuals, with three more acting as lookouts.
-In August 1907 in the nearby village of Gaichur, a fourth attack upon yet another businessman, Gurevitch, by four individuals wearing sunglasses.
-On October 19, 1907, attack upon the mail coach; a gendarme and postman were killed.
-In 1908, three further attacks, again upon businessmen.

Skirda then says the money they got was used for propaganda and to get weapons. which of these activities Makhno was involved in isnt specified - Skirda may not have known himself. (the above info from page 22 of Anarchy's Cossack)

this wasnt precisely what he was put in jail for, though. a little bit later, Makhno was arrested when a friend of his killed his ex girlfriend - seemingly they expected that Makhno helped with it, though this wasnt the case (he *had* loaned his gun to the person who did the killing, but he didnt know it was for the purpose of shooting the lady who dumped his friend, and tried to help her when she was shot). he was also under suspicion of some of the above-mentioned things, but there wasnt enough evidence to put anything on him, and he was let out (but only after 10 months of being stuck in jail). after, he decided to try to keep within the confines of the law, buuuuut...

the group he was involved with discovered two agents provacateurs in their ranks and killed them. they were suspicious of one other fellow (and seemingly were right). after a meeting (or perhaps the meeting they killed the two?), the group found itself surrounded by authorities. they shot their way out.

a bit later, Makhno and two others in the group decided to kill the local governor (in revenge for one of their own, who was killed in the shoot-out mentioned immediately above). this didnt go through, however, as they couldnt get in to see him. Makhno decided to bomb the local Okhrana station (i think the Okhrana were the cops?). this didnt go through, once more, but for different reasons - they bumped into cossacks on the way, were searched, and shot their way out again. this was basically what got him, in the end, as he was arrested a short while later. while a lot of his comrades were executed, he wasnt (Skirda suggests it was due to his youth at the time, and because he consistently denied everything accused of him). he ended up sick, spent about two months in the hospital, then was transferred to the prison of Lugansk, then Ekaterinoslav, then (i think) finally, to Butyrki, in Moscow - where, due to the conditions, he contracted tuberculosis, which ultimately killed him at the end of his life, decades later in Paris.

he was released in 1917, as a result of the Revolution. he considered staying in Moscow when he got out, but his friends back in Gulyai-Polye (and also his mom) convinced him to return to his hometown.

(all of this info was from Anarchy's Cossack, between pages 22 - 33... considerably condensed!)

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Jan 9 2007 17:49

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Jan 9 2007 19:48

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Jan 9 2007 23:13

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tigersiskillers
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Jan 9 2007 23:52
syndicalistcat wrote:
One thing that is sometimes lost on people is that the Ukraine Revolutionary Army, of which Makhno was the elected leader (that's what "batko" meant), was not a specifically anarchist force.

Getting the thread somewhere back on topic (albeit in a totally nitpicky way) I thought Batko meant something like 'Little Father' and was more a term of affection than an official title?

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Jan 10 2007 00:35

Skirda mentions that there were other "batkos" in the Russian civil war. He says that in the traditions of the Ukrainian cossacks a "batko" is an elected leader, as distinguished from an officer appointed from above.

t.

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Jan 10 2007 00:52

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Feighnt
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Jan 10 2007 00:56
syndicalistcat wrote:
Skirda mentions that there were other "batkos" in the Russian civil war. He says that in the traditions of the Ukrainian cossacks a "batko" is an elected leader, as distinguished from an officer appointed from above.

t.

yeah - in the first post i made in the weird bolshevik thread, within the large amount of quotation from Skirda's book, it mentions another Batko who was in the insurrectionary army - Batko Pravda.

tigersiskillers
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Jan 10 2007 18:06
syndicalistcat wrote:
Skirda mentions that there were other "batkos" in the Russian civil war. He says that in the traditions of the Ukrainian cossacks a "batko" is an elected leader, as distinguished from an officer appointed from above.

t.

Ahh, ok, shows what I get for being too lazy to dig out my copy of Skirda's book...

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Jan 10 2007 19:01

Father Truth?

Feighnt
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Jan 11 2007 01:19
OliverTwister wrote:
Father Truth?

another little-known figure to fight in the insurrectionary army was Batko Christmas. tongue

BB
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Jan 11 2007 15:47
tigersiskillers wrote:
syndicalistcat wrote:
One thing that is sometimes lost on people is that the Ukraine Revolutionary Army, of which Makhno was the elected leader (that's what "batko" meant), was not a specifically anarchist force.

Getting the thread somewhere back on topic (albeit in a totally nitpicky way) I thought Batko meant something like 'Little Father' and was more a term of affection than an official title?

Batko means 'Little Father' and is the name of the title.