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Vegetarian/Vegan socialists through history

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yoda's walking stick
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Jul 30 2011 22:47
Vegetarian/Vegan socialists through history

OK, I promise this will be my new thread for a while. I realize I am annoying some people with my many threads, though I don't mean to.

Anyway, I'm hoping to create a list of socialist vegetarians and vegans. I'm hoping people might know of some that I am not aware of, so I might read of these figures and be inspired.

The ones who immediately come to my mind were Fabians, like George Bernard Shaw and Henry Stephens Salt, who don't appeal to the more revolution-oriented posters here. I've recently discovered another, named Elisee Reclus, an anarchist, whose Wikipedia entry makes it sound as if he might have participated in the Paris Commune.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Élisée_Reclus

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Le_Cri_du_Peuple_-_Elisée_Reclus.JPG[/img]

Anyway, this is a fascinating topic for me, so if anyone knows of other vegetarian or vegan socialists, I'd love to hear of them. smile

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CRUD
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Jul 30 2011 23:46

I like the freegans who will eat roadkill. Human vultures....fuck ya.

cacophony_forever
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Jul 31 2011 00:23

Albert Einstein was a socialist and a vegetarian.

yoda's walking stick
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Jul 31 2011 01:10
cacophony_forever wrote:
Albert Einstein was a socialist and a vegetarian.

Good call. And I hear he's pretty smart, too. wink

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Jul 31 2011 07:05

Stalin's bestie Vyacheslav Molotov was reportedly an early proponent of straight-edge Stalinism.

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Entdinglichung
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Jul 31 2011 11:16

Hungry56
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Jul 31 2011 11:25

A lot of the pre-Franco Spanish anarchists were vegetarian straight edge. AFAIK the best book on the old spanish anarchists and the CNT is Murray Bookchin's 'The Spanish Anarchists: The Heroic Years 1868-1936'.

yoda's walking stick
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Jul 31 2011 13:35

You know folks, this isn't in Libcommunity. I'd appreciate it if you stopped flamebaiting. Thank you in advance.

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jura
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Jul 31 2011 13:38

But Molotov – allegedly – was a vegetarian plus a teetotaler!

working class
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Jul 31 2011 14:57

Leo Tolstoy

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Aug 2 2011 23:32

Hitler was a vegetarian so there goes your moral superiority.

[edit] I'm not saying Hitler was a socialist. That would be absurd.

yoda's walking stick
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Aug 1 2011 00:44
CRUD wrote:
Hitler was a vegetarian so there goes your moral superiority.

Can people please lay off the flamebaiting? This isn't Libcommunity.

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Entdinglichung
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Aug 1 2011 09:42

the members of the neo-kantian and non-marxist International Socialist Militant League (ISK) in the 1920ies and 1930ies in Germany had to be vegetarian:

Quote:
# Members were to abstain from nicotine, alcohol and meat, were to be absolutely punctual and orderly, and because of the anti-clerical position of the organization, withdrawal from church affiliation was mandatory
# Participation in a trade union, the ISK and the labor movement was general requirement for members (eliminating passive membership)
# Instead of a membership fee, there was a "Party tax," which all members with an income over 150 Reichsmarks had to pay

in the 1920ies, the core of the ISK also "practised" celibacy

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Aug 2 2011 04:39
yoda's walking stick wrote:
CRUD wrote:
Hitler was a vegetarian so there goes your moral superiority.

Can people please lay off the flamebaiting? This isn't Libcommunity.

Why are most people vegans? Is it really out of a concern for caged chickens and such or do most derive an ego boost from the moral superiority they gain. I'm also not flame bating as Hitler was indeed a vegetarian.

I had a vegan girlfriend years back and woke up late at night only to find her eating a basically raw ground beef hamburger in the kitchen like a vampire that hadn't eaten for a thousand years....blood dripping down her chest...it was kinda sexy actually....until the whole thing hit me...all those years of taking her shit...it was all an act. All one giant act.

And this shite in the US was lame as hell-

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/03/17/MNGI1CGM1H.DTL

Her book is here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1604860804?ie=UTF8&tag=novelistic-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1604860804

You should all start a commune like Tolstoy did and pat yourselves on the back all day for being on a higher moral plane than the rest of the universe.

http://www.eatveg.com/tolstoy.htm

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Aug 2 2011 20:07

Karl Höchberg
Darwin's reply to him.
He died young of lung disease, but helped start the young Kauz.

Hungry56
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Aug 6 2011 03:01

Crud.

"Hitler was a vegetarian, there goes your moral superiority."

So it's impossible for Hitler to have any good characteristics? Everything he did was pure evil, like a cartoon villain? Whether an action is morally good or bad doesn't depend on who does it.

"You should all start a commune like Tolstoy did and pat yourselves on the back all day for being on a higher moral plane than the rest of the universe."

All other animals rape, therefore humans should rape too? All other animals roll around in their own shit, therefore humans should too? Humans ARE on a higher plane to the rest of the universe - and we can make the conscious decision to live without the mass torture, imprisonment and slaughter of animals, or at least to limit it as much as possible to what is absolutely neccessary for our diet.

"The Vegetarian Myth etc"

Uhhh..that book argues that plants are sentient and civilization should be destroyed.

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Aug 6 2011 04:35

Hitler wasn't actually a vegetarian anyway, for whatever thats worth.

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Aug 7 2011 07:04
Hungry56 wrote:
Crud.

"Hitler was a vegetarian, there goes your moral superiority."

So it's impossible for Hitler to have any good characteristics? Everything he did was pure evil, like a cartoon villain? Whether an action is morally good or bad doesn't depend on who does it.

I've been surrounded by stereotypical "Buddhist vegan fake nice moral grandstanding yuppies" here in San Fransisco and the taste left in my mouth is rather foul. Like being surrounded by self righteous Christians.

Hungry56 wrote:
"You should all start a commune like Tolstoy did and pat yourselves on the back all day for being on a higher moral plane than the rest of the universe."

All other animals rape, therefore humans should rape too? All other animals roll around in their own shit, therefore humans should too? Humans ARE on a higher plane to the rest of the universe - and we can make the conscious decision to live without the mass torture, imprisonment and slaughter of animals, or at least to limit it as much as possible to what is absolutely neccessary for our diet.

The stereotypical do-gooder vegan religious like (so called) "leftist" mentality alienates a large portion of the working class. Having that said humans aren't even civil to humans at the moment so the fantasy that the entire world will one day come to the "moral" opinion that "meat is murder" seems somewhat unlikely.

Our current relation to nature is by in large the result of capitalism pitting man against man in a war of competition....hence the "war on nature". I would assume cooperative worker run factories/farms would be run in a humane fashion as the profit motive and competition would be nil. I would assume in a libertarian socialist system cows wouldn't be prodded in the anus with cattle prods and thrown into a veal crate for ten years.

As far as the book I referenced it for it's critique of the unhealthy aspects of a vegan diet and I also brought her up to highlight the sort of lifestylist idiocy I have to deal with on a daily basis here in the Bay Area. She was mace pied because she criticized the vegan diet. Luckily for those two cowards I wasn't there to knock their teeth out.

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Aug 7 2011 07:01
Asher wrote:
Hitler wasn't actually a vegetarian anyway, for whatever thats worth.

I had to break Godwins law although I'm not sure if that specific use of Hitler qualifies? Vegans are NAZI's! I think that about does it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_vegetarianism

I especially laughed at this part

Quote:
“ Do you know that your Führer is a vegetarian, and that he does not eat meat because of his general attitude toward life and his love for the world of animals? Do you know that your Führer is an exemplary friend of animals, and even as a chancellor, he is not separated from the animals he has kept for years?...The Führer is an ardent opponent of any torture of animals, in particular vivisection, and has declared to terminate those conditions...thus fulfilling his role as the savior of animals, from continuous and nameless torments and pain.”

—Neugeist/Die Weisse Fahne (German magazine of the New Thought movement

Hitler...."the savior of animals". He was the animal Jesus. Obviously it was propaganda to...guess what????Put Hitler on a higher moral plane than other people. To form his FAKE image he projected to Germany. Moral grandstanding?

Hey look....she has it figured out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin

Quote:
"I think using animals for food is an ethical thing to do, but we've got to do it right. We've got to give those animals a decent life and we've got to give them a painless death. We owe the animal respect."
—Temple Grandin

Vegans (at least here in San Fransisco) have the ability to make average Joe feel like this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish

Fuck all that shit.

yoda's walking stick
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Aug 8 2011 00:57

I don't question Temple Grandin's sincere desire to help animals. But she's to animal exploitation as FDR was to capitalism. Both figures represent reformism, which doesn't deal with or acknowledge the fundamental issues.

But, Crud, I don't want to get in an internet screaming match with you. Can't we be reasonable? The rightness of the animal rights or vegan position wasn't the topic of this thread. If you'd like to debate and discuss that, can't you take it elsewhere?

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Aug 8 2011 02:20

Temple Grandin is the shit. That is all.

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Aug 8 2011 05:08
yoda's walking stick wrote:
I don't question Temple Grandin's sincere desire to help animals. But she's to animal exploitation as FDR was to capitalism. Both figures represent reformism, which doesn't deal with or acknowledge the fundamental issues.

So as opposed to reforming animal product farming and production under socialism what do you suggest, we abolish animal products?

yoda's walking stick wrote:
But, Crud, I don't want to get in an internet screaming match with you. Can't we be reasonable? The rightness of the animal rights or vegan position wasn't the topic of this thread. If you'd like to debate and discuss that, can't you take it elsewhere?

How many socialist rapists have their been? I wouldn't start that thread if I were trying to claim moral superiority now would I - as is the goal of this thread. I'm attacking the unstated goal of this thread which is.... moral grandstanding.

^ LOL..."freeing the chickens!" Putting the chicken before the egg? They should have expropriated the chickens in order to feed the scores of millions of people who cant afford to eat due to the perpetuation of capitalism. Save the fucking chickens.....pfft.

yoda's walking stick
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Aug 8 2011 10:39

Crud, please stop flaming this thread and leading it off-topic. Thank you. smile

Black Badger
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Aug 8 2011 17:09

I remain angry at the vegan moralists who assaulted Keith with pies, but I really wish people would stop perpetuating the lie that she was hit with anything other than regular pies. The photos on the SF IndyMedia website of her talking to the cops - whom she had called - outside the Anarchist Book Fair within 20 minutes of the assault do not show any evidence of "mace" or "pepper spray" or "hot sauce" (the alleged extra ingredients seem to change with every subsequent relating of the story...) being involved. There is no visible redness or swelling to any of her mucosa.

In addition, her book offers no actual nutritional data, but relies on the counter-moralism of her personal health problems and her subjective - and exclusively anecdotal - perspective. That her thesis annoys vegans is not sufficient reason to accept her analysis; it is overflowing with spiritualist nonsense.

Her calling of the cops to report the assault in addition to her leadership position in the Deep Green Resistance paramilitary swindle are reason enough to call into question everything she does.

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Aug 11 2011 00:23
Black Badger wrote:
I remain angry at the vegan moralists who assaulted Keith with pies, but I really wish people would stop perpetuating the lie that she was hit with anything other than regular pies. The photos on the SF IndyMedia website of her talking to the cops - whom she had called - outside the Anarchist Book Fair within 20 minutes of the assault do not show any evidence of "mace" or "pepper spray" or "hot sauce" (the alleged extra ingredients seem to change with every subsequent relating of the story...) being involved. There is no visible redness or swelling to any of her mucosa.

In addition, her book offers no actual nutritional data, but relies on the counter-moralism of her personal health problems and her subjective - and exclusively anecdotal - perspective. That her thesis annoys vegans is not sufficient reason to accept her analysis; it is overflowing with spiritualist nonsense.

Her calling of the cops to report the assault in addition to her leadership position in the Deep Green Resistance paramilitary swindle are reason enough to call into question everything she does.

If I was pied by the vegan militia for opposing the vegan lifestyle I would beat them so severely on a regular basis they would in fact call the cops. I never said I bought into her entire world view either. Some people who think aliens abduct people also say the world is round....does this mean the world isn't round because they have the absurd belief that they're being abducted?

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Aug 11 2011 00:25
yoda's walking stick wrote:
Crud, please stop flaming this thread and leading it off-topic. Thank you. :)

Go save some chickens smile

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Aug 13 2011 01:59
Noa Rodman wrote:
Karl Höchberg
Darwin's reply to him.
He died young of lung disease, but helped start the young Kauz.

That's interesting. Thanks for this. Darwin appears though to not have answered the letter writer, who seems to have been focused on the ethics of abstaining from animal flesh, rather than the dietary benefits.