Why people on the far-left are very anti Israel?

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Black Badger
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Feb 21 2014 15:32

http://you-dont-look-anti-semitic.blogspot.com/
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54108250/thepast.info/past-read.pdf
http://dysophia.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/antisemitism-and-anarchy-dysoph...

Since the anti-Jewish attacks are mostly speculative/based on fantasy, allow me to indulge in a little of my own. Let's pretend for a moment that this beast called "The Israel Lobby" with a singular agenda and the power to control the US government really existed. Now let's pretend for a moment that it didn't, that it's been magically disappeared from history. The looming question then becomes: Would US foreign policy somehow be benign toward the formerly colonized parts of the world? Would the Cold War have looked substantially different? Would there have been no substantial US support for the slew of Third World dictators who displayed the requisite anti-Communism? Would US policy toward emerging oil-rich states (monarchist, or one-party democracies, or whatever) have been different? This line of bullshit relies on an implicit assumption that US foreign policy agendas would have been more moral, humane, transparent, and in the interest of the vast majority of the world's inhabitants in the absence of some pernicious anti-human Jewish agenda.

Drakula25
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Feb 21 2014 16:42

Again, the fact that articles from Zionist organizations finding "anti-Semitism" is being posted on left forums like this one is tragic, especially considering how so many prominent leftists, Chomsky included, have spoken out against this witchhunt campaign for what it is -- an attempt by a racists to whitewash racism and oppression, a matter of much a do about nothing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvVlM5RlSe0

Quote:
"Question: 'Incidents of anti-Semitism have come up at the Occupy protests. Why is anti-Semitism starting to rise among the left, and what is your advice to young Jewish activists?"

Chomsky: As far as I know, it's not true. [applause]

If you're out to look for it, you can find things. When you take a big mass of people, you can find a little bit of almost anything.

On the other hand, this claim that there's anti-Semitism on the left, just look at its history. Look at the early 1960s-70s. There was practically an industry of left-liberals, including the Democratic Socialists who were among the worst, trying to show that Dan Berrigan was an anti-Semite, that everyone who opened their mouths were anti-Semites. There were literally efforts -- Seymour Martin Lipset well known sociologist, was running big studies to run through Black Panther newspapers to see if he could find a poem by a twelve-year-old kid which maybe had some anti-Semitic implications. Okay, that shows they're all anti-Semites [sarcastically]. The cry of "anti-Semitism" is a good way to shut people up [applause] because nobody wants to be charged with that. I'd be pretty cautious about those charges. But if it's real, then you respond to it. Whatever it is, anti-Semitism today isn't even a toothpick on a mountain compared to anti-Muslim hysteria [applause].

A lot of the states in the Union here in [the United States] passing constitutional amendments to prevent the courts from using Halakha, Talmudic law [sarcastically]. If they did that, people wouldn't even laugh. But there are states doing something equally laughable and ridiculous -- except that it's dangerous -- which is trying to institute constitutional amendments to prevent the use of Sharia law. This is about as likely as an asteroid hitting the state [laughter]. But this is all over the place. That's real. The FBI is breaking into people's houses and arresting them for what's called "material support to terrorism" -- meaning they said something favorable to Palestinian movements or something. Nothing like that is happening to the Jewish population. If there are any bits and pieces of anti-Semitism, then fine, shout at them or argue against it. But I think it's extremely slight if it's there at all, in comparison to major movements of hatred and repression, hatred of immigrants, blacks, racism, anti-Muslim racism which is an extraordinary and really major phenomenon. [applause]

Not to mention all the people whose names have been sullied and slandered in this way, from Norman Finkelstein to Joseph Massad to Hugo Chavez to Occupy Wall Street.

The user above even has the audacity to post a shitty pamphlet arguing that Zionism should not be referred to as a form of racism, amid other forms of whitewashing (see page 21). Pathetic, and a perfect example of how far leftists will go to whitewash racism against Arabs and privilege white identity. It is again a statement about how poorly anti-racism is understood by people on the left, which can be expected considering pamphlets and blog posts such as this make it very clear that the anarchist community is supposed to remain a predominantly white community, wherein Jewishness (in the abstract) is an extension of white supremacy vis-a-vis the identification of Palestinians as the indigenous population.

As for the question about the Israel Lobby, good job changing the subject. The issue was never whether or not the Israel lobby is the driving force, it is whether or not speaking out about this racist lobby and its advocacy, or exaggerating it, is a form of "anti-Semitism".

In the future, please keep your shitty pamphlets at home and come back when you have a deeper analysis of how white supremacy, racism, and colonialism work. The continued insistence on finding "anti-Semitism" in the Palestine Solidarity movement is useless at best and debilitating and apologetic for white supremacy at worst.

Here are some good places to start:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/05/2013521184814703958.htm...

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Khawaga
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Feb 21 2014 17:51

Ever heard of class analysis?

Drakula25
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Feb 21 2014 18:09

No what's that. /s

Ever heard of white supremacy? What if I told you that white supremacy could INCLUDE modern Jewish identity? And that the excessive obsession with "anti-Semitism" is a means of promoting white supremacy rather than opposing it?

Black Badger
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Feb 21 2014 18:18

http://uspcn.org/2012/03/13/granting-no-quarter-a-call-for-the-disavowal...

Isn't it funny how people who say they've "been around" for a long time but only registered within the last few days (or hours!) come here to deflect authentically anti-capitalist and anti-state discourse with their decidedly non-radical delusions?

Drakula25
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Feb 21 2014 18:32

There is NOTHING more "non-radical" than whitewashing white privilege. Have you bothered reading the pamphlets you are disseminating? Please, explain to me again why it is "anti-Semitic" to say Zionism is a form of racism.

While you're at it, please tell me why Chomsky's comments above are wrong. He is essentially labeling the campaign to find anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist, exaggerating its (non)-existence as not only stupid but reactionary. So what's your excuse?

And also, why did you post a link to that statement? Is that some kind of proof of something? Gilad Atzmon is an Israeli Jew who was basically deranged by his experience invading Lebanon, he is not representative of anything or anyone. The fact that the left Palestine Solidarity Movement is more concerned by his marginal existence than the overwhelming campaign to obstruct anti-Zionist advocacy found in pamphlets like yours is proof of everything I'm saying.

As far as being a newbie, no, I don't think it's funny.

Black Badger
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Feb 21 2014 23:16

There's a slight difference between something being insignificant and non-existent. Just because an insular bourgeois like Chomsky doesn't perceive or experience antisemitism doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Yeah, it's just those fucking Jews (you know, that alien tribe with the monolithic agenda to destroy everything that's beautiful and humane in Western Civilization) being paranoid and over-sensitive again, innit?

I guess it won't shatter -- or probably even dent -- your ideologically rigid worldview to mention that (as of 2009) almost 54% of Jewish Israelis are People of Color? Nah, didn't think so. That's what's so convenient about being against White Supremacy: if there's a minority of people who are declared white who are ostensibly running things, then it's easier to see the injustice of it -- and if it's not fully clear what their agenda is, you can just say it's part of a global agenda of White Supremacy, and if the people running things (like the Chinese bureaucrats or Mugabe's paramilitaries) aren't white, you can still say that by acting the way they do, they're objectively fulfilling the global agenda of White Supremacy. No need to look at class issues, no need to look at gender issues, no need to look at the history of colonialism and the geostrategic competition for economic and political hegemony (statecraft), no need to examine any other institutional hierarchy that supports and/or extends a global division of labor and the segmentation of oppressed people. White Supremacy trumps all. Idiot.

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Mr. Jolly
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Feb 22 2014 06:55

Suppose the Tolouse shootings in France is a good way to get people to check their privilege. No war but the race war comrades.

BTW why is the left quiet about anti arab racism in Iran, you know people get lynched by the state in that country for being Arab activists? Makes the simple oppressor/oppressed narrative of anti imperialism a tad more confusing?

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laborbund
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Feb 22 2014 07:00
Drakula25 wrote:
Hi guys, I'm new here, but I am a lurker and I read articles on libcom. Decided this is my time to comment!

Before this thread devolves into the "YRUSOANTI-SEMITIC" clusterfuck that seems to be so common on this website, I think it's worth addressing the more serious problem with the "left" -- its racial privileging of Jews, as an extension of white privilege...

Its true, though. For example, one time I was at this anarchist thing somewhere and there was a minefield, so I turned to the small indigenous boy I had hired as my guide (paid with shiny trinkets and such) and I said, "You there, boy! Run across that minefield so I can see if there are any mines!" He refused, so of course I was all like "YRUSOANTI-SEMITIC," and let's just say I found out where the mines were.

Drakula25 wrote:
...there is literally 0 evidence for anti-Semitism on the left...

ZERO, as in not a single shred of fucking evidence. Not even a suggestion of it. Anywhere.

Drakula25 wrote:
...[Israel] is not subject to international sanctions despite several decades of colonialism and siege, its economy and society enjoy relatively normal economic relationships with the West despite horrific atrocities (in contrast to the managerial roles given to dictatorships in the Middle East)...

I can't think of any other Middle Eastern regime that has ever engaged in horrific atrocities with the support of the West. Not one.

Drakula25 wrote:
...pulling the race card...

Google image "race card" then explain to us how this phrase can be used to combat white supremacy.

Drakula25 wrote:
...it is instead relegated to the annals of StormFront...

Histrionic rants about the left not hating Israel enough are popular there.

Drakula25 wrote:
...In doing so, the "left" is whitewashing racism and white supremacy...

White supremacy not white enough. Had to be whitewashed.

Drakula25 wrote:
...The same is often done with black nationalist movements. I would not deny that such nationalist movements, as well as anti-colonial nationalist movements (such as Palestinian nationalism) are without their problems...

National liberation has always been so successful and awesome. Remember that time all of those holocaust refugees and Arab Jews living as second class citizens decided to get all nationally liberated? That turned out so well.

Drakula25 wrote:
...such as the rape of Palestine...

There's never a bad time for a rape metaphor.

Drakula25 wrote:
...Perhaps the most obvious proof of this is the existence of the so-called "Anti-Germans" tendency...

Because the anti-deutch aren't at all like Western lefties elsewhere who support horrible shit under the banner of anti-imperialism.

Drakula25 wrote:
...Hezbollah -- an anti-colonial movement made up of disenfranchised youths in Lebanon that is resisting a completely racist settler colonial project...

Drakula25 wrote:
...TL;DR: If I see the anti-Deutsch or anyone else apologizing for Israel at a protest I will beat the living shit out of you and piss in your mouth...

Always good to end your posts with threats of violence and sexual humiliation. When are you going to your next protest bro? I would like to meet you there and protest things that are bad. If we get together with many people who share our opinion and we all walk around declaring the moral superiority of our opinion the jews will have no choice but to listen at some point, right?

Admins, can we keep him for a while? Please? smile

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cantdocartwheels
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Feb 22 2014 10:44

Nope dracul the problem here is that you've said the left is ''dominated'' by jews, and for some reason you imagine that this plays a part n the left not being 'anii-israel' enough.

1. This is obviously a commonly used anti-semetic slur, one consistently used by conspiracy theorists and the radical right. Anyone who happily uses these sorts of conspiracy based racial slurs is on pretty dodgy ground as far as i'm concerned.
2. The few people I know who are both jewish and on the radical left actually tend to be very critical of Israel and often actively so. And are it shockingly turns out not the secretive Zionist cabal you would have us believe is trying to improve israels PR image In the anarchist movement.
3. Again Israel-Palestine gets far more attention on the left than the many other brutal ethnic conflicts across the globe. But beyond going to a few demos and generally thinking its bad theres not exactly tonnes the radical left in the west can do about it. Just as theres not much we can do about the situation in Uganda, sudan, iran etc etc To obsess over such issues as some would have us do is pretty pointless.
4. Anti-semetism is obviously not as strong as it was in the 30's, and it may not, for the most part, be openly expressed in the west In public discourse now, but to say it is just the same as anti-Italian or anti-irish prejudice is rather silly. It may have escaped your notice but there are not a thousand and one websites out there claiming that the Italians secretly run the world.

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 13:36

Wow, one lie after the next.

Black Badger has the audacity to reduce white supremacy to some kind of international "conspiracy," not to mention to dismiss Chomsky (and presumably everyone else who rejects his witchhunt and shitty racist pamphlets) as an "insular bourgeois". In Black Badger's ignorant worldview, white supremacy and class analysis are contradictory rather than part and parcel of the same process of exploitation and subjugation. Cantdocartwheels insists on pulling the race card, because he believes that talking about race privilege for Jews (and presumably white people in general) is the same as saying "the left is dominated by the Jews". I wonder if he would react the same way if I pointed out (correctly) that the presence of white privilege on the left has alienated many people of color (myself included). Is that the same as saying the "left is dominated by white people"? And if so, is that racism or anti-racism? Mr. Jolly thinks an individual hate crime is proof of systemic anti-Semitism. And laborbund is blind enough to conflate the US relationship with Bahrain and other Gulf dictatorships with its relationship to Israel.

The common thread is obvious: NONE OF YOU HAVE ANY CONCEPT OF WHAT WHITE SUPREMACY IS. In cantdocartwheel's case, he is basically regurgitating ADL and Zionist talking points suggesting that the focus on Israel/Palestine is out of Jew-hatred, as opposed the many other reasons that are obvious to people who aren't trying to whitewash Israeli racism. This same line (why single out Israel?!) has been repeated AGAIN AND AGAIN by those trying to dismiss any act of solidarity with the Palestinian people. The reality is obvious: Israel is being singled out FOR SUPPORT. The relationship between Israel and the US is not the same as the relationship between the United States and other human rights violators. For laborbund to suggest that it is means he has 0 concept of international relations. He believes that any time the US supports some terrible country somewhere it is the same. One particular and obvious proof of this is that literally nobody would dismiss criticism of US support for Bahrain (or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or any other country) as a form of creeping "racism" and then ask why Bahrain was being singled out.

Perhaps more pernicious is laborbund's desire to conflate national liberation movements of colonized peoples -- which, as I admitted, can be problematic and full of shitty tendencies -- with settler-colonialism. In his view, Zionism is just another shitty form of nationalism, rather than a settler-colonial movement. Perhaps settler-colonialism has no significance in his worldview, which would make sense considering his piss-poor concept of racism.

Black Badger also asks, embarrassingly (for him), if the presence of non-white Jews in Israel changes the reality of Israel's white supremacy and the white supremacist tendency of people on the left (all four of the posters above included) to witch-hunt for "anti-Semitism" where/when it doesn't exist. What a joke. The presence of non-white Jews (and the concurrent racism against them in Israel itself, for their Arabness and Africanness) does not change the fact that their Jewishness privileges them, both in Israel and Europe. That is, different aspects of their ethnicity are treated differently. It would also explain why there is such a high tendency to swing to the ultra-right among the Mizrahim in Israel -- their Jewishness is the only card of privilege they have to play before being reduced to the status of Palestinians, so they excessively hype up their Jewish credentials to establish their value to the State of Israel.

Laborbund also tells us that calling out the Anti-Deutsch is little more than moralism. Funny, seeing as he doesn't feel that way about other ultra-right wing groups, such as the Nazis. He sees the Anti-Deutsch as essentially misguided fellow leftists, as opposed to what they actually are: ultra-right racists and apologists for the brutal and savage subjugation and colonization of an entire country based PURELY on race. The fact that they are welcome, flags and all, at leftist demonstrations is a display of how piss-poor the left is when it comes to matters concerning race. And the above posts are all proof of this.

To anyone who is reading this, look at the materials in some of the Zionist whitewash propaganda that Black Badger posted --
"April Rosenblum" -- a "lactation specialist" according to a quick Google search -- decided that out of her "solidarity" with Muslims and Arabs, she would enter their movement in order to stifle it by invoking claims of anti-Semitism where they don't exist.

In her pamphlet, she strings together individual hate crimes and offensive statements in completely separate parts of the world to claim that anti-Semitism remains some kind of international threat and problem -- again, showing that she and others like her (Black Badger) have no concept of what systematic racism looks like, being forced to cherry-pick for individual hate crimes out of context I should add, this is exactly the same tactic that neo-Nazis use to spread their nonsense about an "anti-white" international agenda being carried out by "the Jews" or, in some cases, "the Mooslims". Rosenblum then goes forth to reduce any criticism of Israel with which she disagrees to "anti-Semitism," including, most damagingly, the statement that "Zionism is Racism".

Now either Black Badger isn't reading his own propaganda, or he is simply lying out of his ass. Because he also posted a link to this statement made by several left-wing Palestinian writers in the United States condemning the anti-Semitism of an Israeli musician Gilad Atzmon. The statement passed by these Palestinian writers explicitly states that Zionism is also a form of racism. So which is it? Is rejecting Zionism as a form of racism kosher to Black Badger or not?

Another series of literature Black Badger had the ignorance to post advises Palestinians to approach Jews and make friends with them -- as though by virtue of being Jewish, an individual should automatically be treated as having greater authority and value. That is EXACTLY what white privilege is, but Black Badger wouldn't know it!

I assume that the admins of this webpage aren't as dense or poorly-versed in matters concerning race, and considering I haven't done anything ban-worthy, I think I'm going to stick around. If for no other reason, I don't want other people who were attracted to this website for its diverse collection of literature not to be sucked into this kind of propaganda that damages solidarity with Palestine.

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Khawaga
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Feb 22 2014 15:07

Oh don't worry, you will get banned soon for rabid anti-semitism. I mean, you might as well post an image of a Jew with its tentacles clutching the earth and money. That's the essence of your argument, which is actually pretty much a white supremacist argument as others have pointed out.

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Malva
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Feb 22 2014 15:12
Quote:
to claim that anti-Semitism remains some kind of international threat and problem

Seriously, you are coming across as some kind of denier now. Antisemitism isn't a problem?! In France attacks on Jews have increased massively in recent years. What about the murder and torture of Ilan Halimi and Toulouse and Montauban shootings, for example? In fact, things are so bad that many thousands of Jews are leaving France every year, which traditionally has had one of the largest Jewish populations in Europe.

Further, antisemitism is one of the greatest threats to any genuinely liberating social movement against capitalism because it is a directly competing theory of the world. No one is arguing that Palestinians/blacks/the French/Maori people secretly control world markets and governments in order to destroy mankind. But this is exactly what is said about Jews and Israel. The ever-existing "international threat and problem" is that contemporary social movements aim their frustrations and critique at Jews rather than at the value form and its pointless and incessant cycle of self-valorisation that is the real ill behind our society. This is what the Nazis did and to a great extent the Communists also. Given that we now, as then, are about to be faced with the largest economic crises in human history it seems that critiquing antisemitism now is paramount.

Of course, racism exists, and it is something everyone on here is against, but to not recognise the historical and political nature and threat posed by antisemitism seems like the worst kind of willful ignorance a person can engage in. It was only seventy years ago that millions of people were being marched into death camps to be gassed to death and erased from history. Given the gravity of that fact, it would behoove you to take this subject more seriously.

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 15:33

Khawaga and Malva simply regurgitating their earlier ignorant talking points. I'll let my comments stand for anyone who is paying attention. It's sad when even the comments of someone like Chomsky are ban-worthy at leftist websites.

I guess I should add: Malva's desire to reduce anti-Semitism to some kind of always-existing international threat (with, as I pointed out, 0 evidence) is another clear statement of how poorly racism is understood. His hideous comment that no other group is accused of international control conspiracies means he is not even paying attention to the actually existing racist threat against Muslims, who are accused of exactly that.

Anti-Jewish sentiment that does or did exist in various historical contexts were never the kind of always-existing conspiracy that Malva and other apologists for Zionism claim. They were not unique or distinguishable from other forms of genocidal racism produced in Europe. And like all forms of racism, including anti-Irish racism, for example, the dynamics of racism vary greatly between places and times. To suggest that today, in Europe or the USA, that anti-Semitism is a serious structural threat on the left is UTTER BULLSHIT, which is why the posters above are reduced to cherry-picking individual hate crimes. One idiot even pointed to the number of anti-Jewish websites as his proof.

On the other hand, this kind of jncoherent whitewashing has made Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism not only more acceptable on the left, it is a reflection of how the left has absorbed the racist hierarchies that exist more generally in Europe and the US.

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laborbund
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Feb 22 2014 15:46
Drakula25 wrote:
Cantdocartwheels insists on pulling the race card...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwp1AsK-OwU

Drakula25 wrote:
...the presence of white privilege on the left has alienated many people of color (myself included).

Yet no matter how much we use our jew privilege powers you still thwart us! The elders of zion must deal with you at once!

Drakula25 wrote:
...And laborbund is blind enough to conflate the US relationship with Bahrain and other Gulf dictatorships with its relationship to Israel... The relationship between Israel and the US is not the same as the relationship between the United States and other human rights violators. For laborbund to suggest that it is means he has 0 concept of international relations. He believes that any time the US supports some terrible country somewhere it is the same. One particular and obvious proof of this is that literally nobody would dismiss criticism of US support for Bahrain (or Saudi Arabia, or Egypt, or any other country) as a form of creeping "racism" and then ask why Bahrain was being singled out...

Its fundamentally the same. The US gives your country weapons and other material support in return for serving US interests in the region. Unless, of course, there is some other, more insidious and secretive reason the US gives Israel guns. Please tell us exactly how the US-Israel relationship is fundamentally different from the US relationship with any other US client dictatorship.

Drakula25 wrote:
...Perhaps more pernicious is laborbund's desire to conflate national liberation movements of colonized peoples -- which, as I admitted, can be problematic and full of shitty tendencies -- with settler-colonialism. In his view, Zionism is just another shitty form of nationalism, rather than a settler-colonial movement...

Yes, nationalism and national liberation are different in that national liberation is all your dreams of sweatshops and atrocities and nationalism is all your dreams of sweatshops and atrocities come true.

Drakula25 wrote:
...Jewishness is the only card of privilege they have to play...

I love this card thing! Its like we're all watching you play a really fun game of solitaire!

Drakula25 wrote:
...Laborbund also tells us that calling out the Anti-Deutsch is little more than moralism. Funny, seeing as he doesn't feel that way about other ultra-right wing groups, such as the Nazis. He sees the Anti-Deutsch as essentially misguided fellow leftists, as opposed to what they actually are: ultra-right racists and apologists for the brutal and savage subjugation and colonization of an entire country based PURELY on race. The fact that they are welcome, flags and all, at leftist demonstrations is a display of how piss-poor the left is when it comes to matters concerning race. And the above posts are all proof of this...

I was actually pointing out the ironic similarity between the simplistic thinking of the anti-deutsch and the simplistic thinking of western anti-imperialists like you. Somehow you missed that, but just to make it clear: The anti-deutch support of israel relies on the same bizzaaro logic that anti-imperialist support for national liberation movements relies on. Its all pro-nation state garbage, and in the end its all pro-capitalist garbage. Most people who regularly post here aren't activist types attending endless, and quite pointless, demos with "fellow leftists." Instead, most of us are trying to organize with fellow working class people in order to improve the conditions of our lives and eventually get rid all forms of oppression - including racism. So, I don't know how much stuff on this website you've actually read aside from stuff having to do with your particular obsession with Israel, but you may find a more sympathetic audience on like revleft or on some street corner somewhere trying to high pressure sales passers by into buying your paper or whatnot.

By the way, can I order a bundle of the next issue of your paper? I think it would be fun if we sold papers together at a leftist demo. Telling old middle class dudes wearing fanny packs and college students and different varieties of stalinists about the worldwide white-jew privilege cabal trying to ruin our demo against things we disagree with stuff like that.

Well, off to work for now. "Solidarity," end the fed, etc. etc.

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 16:27

^^^Laborbund confirms that he has no concept of why settler-colonialism is distinct from nationalism in general. He confirms that he thinks both are "bad" or whatever. He thinks people who explicitly support racism and colonialism, like the anti-Deutsch, are "the same" as leftists who support national liberation movements that challenge colonialism (presumably including Palestine).

He also thinks that actual workplace discrimination is the same as feigning anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist (hence his interesting but inappropriate YouTube video).

Quote:
Yet no matter how much we use our jew privilege powers you still thwart us! The elders of zion must deal with you at once!

Well others suggested banning me for pointing out your white supremacy and complete ignorance, so I don't know why you're making remarks like this in jest.

As for what the difference is between US support for Bahrain vs US support for Israel, there are several obvious reasons. For one, the US relationship with the Bahraini dictatorship has reduced the Bahraini dictatorship to basically a managerial role within the overall campaign of US imperialism. Israel does not simply have a managerial role, with the exception of managing the Palestinians. The rest of Israeli society enjoys normalized relations with the West, including (bourgeois) rights, and it therefore has much greater (but not complete) sway in terms of determining the extent, scope, and direction of US imperialism. More importantly, the drive to maintain the Israeli colonial economy as "normal" within the scope of its participation in international trade is given far greater political commitment in the United States. There is no such commitment to Bahrain's economy, which is basically just a patronage state. Even considering the support the US gives both, there is also the added element that Israel, after violently destroying the Egyptian army in 6 days, is considered a far greater asset to many policymakers and military-related industries -- which in turn explains why its lobby is given much greater support. No other country in the Middle East, let alone the world, can attract the sitting President of the United States and all major REpublican candidates to its national convention each year, nor maintain such explicit loyalty from virtually every member of Congress. Israel also, unlike Bahrain, has nuclear weapons, a standing military occupation lasting over four decades, and is based on the complete denial and expulsion of the indigenous rather than simply their exploitation -- the last of which is a key element of the production of white supremacy. This key difference between settler-colonialism and colonialism more generally is explained quite well by Gabriel Piterberg in this lecture (and his books):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDjB8aUUe-o

The result of these factors is that Israel and its American lobby are not only given much greater political commitment and influence in the overall scope of US empire -- which shouldn't be a difficult contention, unless you think all US client states have equally subordinate roles and there is no difference between their relative power and influence -- it is also given much greater PR. The ideology behind that PR uses many of the same bullshit assumptions given by the posters above, including the notion that Zionism is a "national liberation movement" rather than a white supremacist and settler-colonial campaign bent on the denial of national liberation; that anti-Semitism is an always-existing racist threat rather than a form of racism that exists within specific contexts like most other forms of racism; that Zionism can have "liberal" elements; and that any criticism of Israel that goes beyond an arbitrary line is "racist" (i.e. don't say anything about the Mossad, don't say anything about the Israel Lobby, etc).

I do not agree with the people that think Israel or its lobby "control" Washington (which is stupid and exaggerated), but I also do not believe that exaggerating opposition to Israel, including things like conspiracy theories about the Israeli intelligence agency or giving the pro-Israel lobby in the US more influence than it has -- which is already an incredible amount relative to other regimes -- is proof of "racism". It is proof of rejecting a racist regime and its attendant institutions, and that should be expected among people that genuinely reject racism and can see the extent to which American and European colonialism have sought to single out Israel by whitewashing its current policies, history, and institutions.

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Devrim
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Feb 22 2014 16:30
Drakula25 wrote:
No other country causes this many idiots to come out screaming about phantom "anti-Semitism" where it doesn't exist -- and that should be expected, because anti-Arab racism in general and anti-Palestinian racism in particular is well established on the left.

Drakula25 wrote:
On the other hand, this kind of jncoherent whitewashing has made Islamophobia and anti-Arab racism not only more acceptable on the left, it is a reflection of how the left has absorbed the racist hierarchies that exist more generally in Europe and the US.

Do you really think that the left is anti-Arab. With the exception of the anti-Deutsche, who are viewed as quite strange by most people, I would think that the overwhelming majority of the European left is pro-Palestinian nationalism. Yes, you might be able to find the odd exception, whic is prop-Israel, odd being the operative word here, but that would only go to prove the general rule. I don't know about the US, but I am pretty sure that this would be the case in Europe.

Devrim

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 16:32

BTW, I'm still waiting for Black Badger to answer my question: Does he think that saying "Zionism is racism" is anti-Semitic? One of the whitewash pamphlets he posted says so, but another document he posted says very clearly (and correctly) that Zionism is, in fact, racist.

So either he's not reading the pamphlets before he posts them or he is himself an anti-Semite (?).

Oh, or the other option, he doesn't give a shit what he posts so long as it promotes the reactionary witch-hunt to find "anti-Semitism" on the left and in the anti-racist movement for the liberation of Palestine.

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 16:40

Hi Devrim,

Let me make myself clear. I would never deny that the left, including the posters above, likely maintain their critical stances against Israel, but I think the posts above (especially some of the pamphlets) make it clear exactly how that criticism falls short of actually rejecting anti-Arab racism.

The examples I would give include demanding that Arabs and Palestinians find token Jewish "allies" and "voices" to legitimate their cause, as though Palestinians on their own are suspect while Jewish voices carry greater social capital; the desire to arbitrarily limit criticisms of Israel, including the criticism that Zionism is itself a form of racism (see the pamphlet that Black Badger posted); the campaign against voicing chants and the like in Arabic, which are seen as "alienating" by some on the left (talk about xenophobia); and the witch-hunt to find anti-Semitism among anti-racist activists who are rejecting Zionism. I contend, like Chomsky, that the witch-hunt is reactionary, and an attempt to malign and control the pro-Palestinian movement while maintaining that any and all non-existent and hypothetical threats to Jewish people are seen as a priority. This to me is a form of privileging someone's race, not rejecting racism. When "anti-Semitism" is invoked to whitewash racism against Arabs, which is done excessively on the left, I see that as a form of racism against Arabs. When the very real threats of racism against Arabs under the guise of "stopping terrorism" or whatever are used to stifle political dissent, I see the priority among people on the left to cherry-pick and exaggerate or even manufacture the presence of anti-Jewish sentiment as little more than a signal that the scene is primarily about welcoming Jewish people -- by privileging their voices, feelings, etc.

There is a long history of the left taking half-assed stances on Palestinian liberation, the posts above are good examples of this trend. I believe it is the left simply taking the already-existing racial hierarchies in Europe and the United States (the integration of Jews as "white" and the reduction of Arabs to terrorists/savages/whatever) and reproducing it inside their movements. Shameful.

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 20:42
Malva wrote:
Btw, if anyone is interested in an overview of Postone's views on this, this interview is quite useful: http://www.workersliberty.org/story/2010/02/05/zionism-anti-semitism-and...

Quote:
The way in which anti-semitism is distinguished, and should be distinguished, from racism, has to do with the sort of imaginary of power, attributed to the Jews, Zionism, and Israel, which is at the heart of anti-semitism. The Jews are seen as constituting an immensely powerful, abstract, intangible global form of power that dominates the world. There is nothing similar to this idea at the heart of other forms of racism. Racism rarely, to the best of my knowledge, constitutes a whole system that seeks to explain the world. anti-semitism is a primitive critique of the world, of capitalist modernity. The reason I regard it as being particularly dangerous for the left is precisely because anti-semitism has a pseudo-emancipatory dimension that other forms of racism rarely have.

Quote:
Israel is far from being as powerful as charged. Yet you have people like my present and former colleagues at the University of Chicago, John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, strongly supported by circles in the UK, who argue that the only thing driving American policy in the Middle East is Israel, as mediated by the Jewish lobby. They make this sweeping charge in the absence of any serious attempt to analyze American policy in the Middle East since 1945, which certainly cannot adequately be understood as Israel-driven. So, for example, they completely ignore American policy toward Iran for the past 75 years. The real pillars of American policy in the Middle East after World War Two were Saudi Arabia and Iran. That has changed in recent decades, and the Americans aren’t sure how to deal with that and secure the Gulf for their purposes. Yet you had a book written by these two academics claiming that American policy in the Middle East was primarily driven by the Jewish lobby without bothering to seriously analyze Great Power policies in the Middle East in the 20th century.

Shit, how did I miss this disgusting filth being posted here? For anyone who isn't retarded, Workers' Liberty is a reactionary Zionist organization that parades itself as a Trotskyist group. It supports the war in Iraq, Zionism, rejects anti-Zionism as a cover for (you guessed it) "left anti-Semitism" as part of the reactionary witch-hunt in this thread, and it also excels in demonizing Muslims and engaging in Islamophobia.

If you people read such shitty reactionary newspapers for advice on "racism" then it's no wonder so many of you are apologists for Israel's brutal campaign of colonization.

Detox: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/12/201212249122912381.html

Werner Harding
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Feb 22 2014 21:51

Drakula25, your opinions and thoughts might find more appreciation here: revleft.com

Drakula25
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Feb 22 2014 22:25

Why? Is that website less tolerant of whitewashing Zionism/colonialism?

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cresspot
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Feb 22 2014 22:35

Let's not get sidetracked people we have a revolution to make

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Fnordie
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Feb 22 2014 22:35
Drakula25 wrote:
Palestinian militants are conflated with Zionist colonialism, Palestinian national liberation is conflated with Zionism

I wonder what country you live in? This has never been my experience in east coast rustbelt cities on the US. Where I live, leftists are solidly pro-Palestinean - Hamas and PLO paraphernalia is popular, people do like Arabic chants at solidarity demos, we generally think Tel Aviv should be bulldozed into the sea...

I'm not disputing that the behavior you're describing might exist, but like, what people or organizations are you talking what?

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laborbund
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Feb 23 2014 01:02
Drakula25 wrote:
Well others suggested banning me for pointing out your white supremacy and complete ignorance, so I don't know why you're making remarks like this in jest.

I'm responding to you in jest because I don't take you seriously. I've not taken you seriously once through any of your extended rants, because you're first post immediately indicated that you're not interested in a sober, comradely discussion. You're a garden variety antisemitic activist nuisance and I find your mental gymnastics hilarious. I enjoy trolling you because I unfortunately have to deal with antisemitic schmucks like you regularly, and you take the bait so well.

More to come. smile

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Feb 23 2014 10:27
Fnordie wrote:
Drakula25 wrote:
Palestinian militants are conflated with Zionist colonialism, Palestinian national liberation is conflated with Zionism

I wonder what country you live in? This has never been my experience in east coast rustbelt cities on the US. Where I live, leftists are solidly pro-Palestinean - Hamas and PLO paraphernalia is popular, people do like Arabic chants at solidarity demos, we generally think Tel Aviv should be bulldozed into the sea...

I'm not disputing that the behavior you're describing might exist, but like, what people or organizations are you talking what?

Hi Fnordie,

Look at the posts above. People like Black Badger post self-contradicting pamphlets to try to find "anti-Semitism" where it doesn't exist. Malva and cantdocartwheels are convinced that everywhere is 1930s Ukraine, all the time, including when Muslim immigrants carry out a bias crime.

When Israel began slaughtering people in Gaza in 2008, it's true that many left groups appropriately condemned the Israeli war campaign, but the desire to present Hamas and Israel as "equal" in some way because both were reactionary, along with the attendant Zionist propaganda trying to find "anti-Semitism" among the left, was found among many outfits, including several anarchist groups with whom I was organizing at the time.

Trying to make the large-scale industrial slaughter of over 1000 people in Gaza, who were and remain in what is essentially an open-air prison, with the crimes of a besieged militant group using homemade weapons is not only absurd but racist. It shows that the groups which do this (undoubtedly including many of the posters above) have no concept of resistance to racism, of what siege and occupation look like, and the inherent inequality between the two. Rejecting Hamas is one thing (which of course, many Palestinians in Gaza do), but to attempt to make the fight seem equal is little more than whitewashing inequality.

Which is the primary aim behind the propaganda being regurgitated above. If you turn the entire world, including the left, including Palestine, etc into 1930's Ukraine or the late 1800s, as though the world and its dynamics of racism have not changed, you can find "anti-Semitism" everywhere you look, equate exaggerated criticisms of Israel into "anti-Semitism," etc. etc. The end result, if not the primary aim, is that Jewish people in left-wing circles are given greater privilege, more authoritative speaking voices, etc. Highly oppressive and racist behavior.

I should also note that the name "Khawaga" is an Arabic slur for "foreigner". I'm guessing that's some kind of orientalistic jab at Arabs. Pathetic.

Drakula25
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Feb 23 2014 12:03
cresspot wrote:
Let's not get sidetracked people we have a revolution to make

Yeah I guess it doesn't include Palestinians, err, oh wait, it does, so long as they talk about how much they don't hate Jews and mince their words condemning Zionism.

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Khawaga
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Feb 23 2014 17:15

It must be easy living in such a black and white world. What you don't get is that you make anti-semitism an allowed form of racism, while libcommers are against all forms of racism including against Jews. And as Malva has pointed out, since we're anti-capitalists we also recognize anti-semitism as a particular, perverted form of anti-capitalist thought. Jewish exceptionality, whenever that comes up, and it does so a lot your post Drakula, is a form of anti-semitism. Israel is like any other state, the only difference is that their ethnic cleansing (or rather "politicide" as some call it) is happening in the 21st century, in a day and age where we don't like it, when just a few centuries back "our" nations could do it with no problem. A nation-state is a nation-state and it doesn't make it more special or evil or whatever if Jews happen to live in one. Really Drakula, the mental gymnastics you have to do to justify your anti-semitism is staggering.

Fleur
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Feb 23 2014 18:25

Dracula25 (are there 24 other draculas already registered with libcom?)

Quote:
not to mention to dismiss Chomsky

OMFG! Did someone dismiss Chomsky!?!!! Get outside right now comrade and do penance, or else it's the salt-mines for you!
Just kidding Noam, if you're looking in. I think you're a dear but I don't think everything you say is an edict written in stone and that not agreeing with you makes you a bad anarchist.

I don't know what part of the world you are in, I'm guessing the US but wherever I've looked on Planet Leftie being pro-Palestine is a pre-requisite. I think you have to study Palestine 101 to get your license to practice as a leftie. How much much more does the left have to do to prove to you their credentials as being pro-Palestine?

What definition of left are you using anyway? You mention the ADL but I wouldn't recognize B'nai B'rith as being particularly left. Do you mean the liberal left of mainstream politics, Democrats/Labour Party? Because they're not left either. And no shit they're not challenging the status quo of national politics relating to Israel/Palestine because they're in or looking to be in power and I don't know of any mainstream political party who want to seriously disrupt the foreign policies of their countries, which are working so well in their favour.

So, are we talking about activisty left? The left which occupies places and go on demos and do solidarity work? Because I don't know what bubble you are living in if you don't spot anti-semitism there. Sure, nobody's organizing pogroms but it's there. It's very obvious on the tin-foil hatted false-flag waving tomfoolery of the conspiracy theorists (note: No, don't worry, I'm not going to get started on the Zeitgeisters again,) but it kind of bleeds into some left wing politics. No-one actually says "it's all the fault of the Jews!" but it sits on the periphery, all that stuff about The Bankers (nudge nudge, wink wink, you know what I mean.) It's amazing how often someone I think is quite sensible will suddenly drop in names like Rothschild, or Rockefeller, or that utter obsession with JP Morgan. If you don't see anti-semitism on the left (as well as anywhere else on the political spectrum) you're just deliberately not looking. Or refusing to recognize it in yourself.

Mr. Natural
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Feb 23 2014 20:58

Werner Harding suggested Dracula25 try Revleft, where his "anti-Semitism" might be more welcome.

As a longtime Revleft poster, now "disappeared" through the wonders of technology and the Stalinist liberalism of its admins, I can assure you Revleft is as pro-Zionist as libcom. So posters on this thread with the exception of Dracula25 might want take a look at Revleft, where discussions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are as impossibly offensive and unproductive as they have been here.

I "upped" Cresspot for his suggestion it might be time to discuss revolutionary organizing and get off this pissing contest. Now that I think about it, though, this thread has produced a collection of posters who lack the political and intellectual integrity necessary to such an effort.

Mr. Natural