Why people on the far-left are very anti Israel?

190 posts / 0 new
Last post
Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 21:16

That sounds cute, but you're not against racism if you try to "find" racism to justify racism. The fact that you people are regurgitating propaganda from the AWL and other reactionary anti-Muslim outfits is proof of this.

Furthermore, had you bothered reading the pamphlets that Zionists like Black Badger posted, you would see this. One of them suggested that even talking about ZIonism as a form of racism is racist.

When you assume that any time Israel is singled out it is for being Jewish, or when you try to whitewash Israel as just another state while its engaging in colonialism, or when you act as though Israel is being singled out for support rather than criticism, you are doing nothing more than whitewashing Israeli racism.

So while your poorly worded comments and presumably anti-Arab screen name may claim that you are "against all forms of racism," your actual record proves that you are a racist, a liar, and an apologist for Zionism, one of the most vicious and racist colonial ideologies that is around today.

radicalgraffiti
Offline
Joined: 4-11-07
Feb 23 2014 21:22

Could you explain what you mean by pro-Zionist Mr Natural? Same goes for Dracula25 and their claims that people on libcom support Israel, cause far as i can see you just mean they reject ridicules conspiracy theory's that claim Israel controls US foreign policy. Is that what Zionism/support for Israel is to you? to recognise the US government is some benevolent actor tricked by the mighty power of Israel money?

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 21:28
Quote:
OMFG! Did someone dismiss Chomsky!?!!! Get outside right now comrade and do penance, or else it's the salt-mines for you!

There's a difference between disagreeing with Chomsky (yeah, sometimes he's wrong) and suggesting that his views are reactionary or anti-Semitic. That is little more than Zionist propaganda. And by extension, they are also dismissing virtually everyone else on the left that has called out this reactionary witch-hunt for what it is. That is why Israeli hasbara propagandists like Malva have to resort to regurgitating bullshit from groups like "Workers Liberty," a poorly disguised pro-Israel "leftist" (in name only) blog which supports US and Israeli aggression and wonders why opponents of Zionism don't pretend that Israel's blood-letting in Gaza is somehow "equal" to Hamas' homemade rockets or other acts Palestinians under Israeli siege carry out.

As for which leftists, look in this thread. Khawaga even has the gall to regurgitate this baseless lie that if Israel and its brazen campaign of racism against the Palestinians is "singled out," it is because of anti-Jewish sentiment as opposed to the fairly obvious reasons that have been repeated for his dumbass multiple times. It is, indeed, pulling the race card to whitewash actual racism.

Your claim that it's found on the left, like the others, is simply a regurgitated lie that has been spread so effectively on internet forums and other reputable houses of left-wing thought that people like you take it for granted. There is virtually 0 proof for this until you redefine "anti-Semitism" to mean opposition to Israel that other leftists don't agree with or understand. If you read the Zionist pamphlets that Black Badger posted, you will see this. Any criticism of Israel that crosses some kind of arbitrary line that its Zionist author designates, including the rejection of Zionism as racism, is somehow "anti-Semitic".

The left in Europe and America is more consciously worried about finding anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist or reducing any opposition to Israel which they disagree with (and in some cases, like Khawaga, any criticism of Israel at all) with "anti-Semitism". This is, of course, nothing more than racism and privilege.

Since this topic has been successfully derailed by some of the Israeli propagandists -- and no, that is not a slur, some of them are literally reposting Israeli propaganda -- I think it would be more worthwhile to start a separate topic on the subject of "left anti-Semitism".

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 21:58
Quote:
Could you explain what you mean by pro-Zionist Mr Natural? Same goes for Dracula25 and their claims that people on libcom support Israel, cause far as i can see you just mean they reject ridicules conspiracy theory's that claim Israel controls US foreign policy. Is that what Zionism/support for Israel is to you? to recognise the US government is some benevolent actor tricked by the mighty power of Israel money?

This thread alone proves that that is a lie. They are reproducing propaganda from explicitly Zionist outfits like the AWL.

Khawaga, a few posts above, claims that virtually ANY criticism of Israel is "anti-Semitic," a groundless slander in which he pulls the race card to defend a racist, settler-colonial regime. It's notable that his claim is virtually the same as that of any white supremacist, who sees opposition to white supremacy as some sort of delusional attack on white people. Racists will ALWAYS play the victim.

As for the claims about Israel "controlling" US foreign policy, most people with more sophisticated views know that that is probably not true, but to dismiss it as "anti-Semitic" because it is exaggerated is basically the same as Khawaga's arrogant and racist worldview. If you don't agree with a criticism of Israel, it's not because the critic is genuinely opposed to a racist regime and its policies, it is because that critic secretly harbors ill-will toward Jews. Pathetic.

A Wotsit's picture
A Wotsit
Offline
Joined: 14-11-11
Feb 23 2014 22:22

Drakula25: I struggled to keep up with this thread but I didn't view the comments you took issue with as a defence of Israel. I did see people criticising the idea that Israel controls US foreign policy (of course Israel has some influence, and uses whatever influence it does have, as any state does/ would do).

The notion of all-powerful Jews controling American foreign policy does seem to stem from an anti-Semitic outlook. I think the vast majority of us do find the idea that Jews wield grossly disproportionate power in countries in which Jewish people are a minority, is an anti-semitic idea built on conspiracist illogic rather than a material analysis (not saying its impossible for a minority ethnic/religous group to wield disproportionate power, as with Western European colonialism, but I am saying if you keep singling out Israel and Jewish people as the ultimate powerful elite it reeks of antisemitism and its basically an incorrect and harmful idea).

I see you have started a new thread which I'm too tired to read right now as its quite long. I'd just like to pick on this quote from the new thread which refers back to this thread:

Quote:
a number of "left" posters on this website decided that international opposition to the Israeli Apartheid regime and its 60+ years of ongoing settler-colonialism is due to anti-Semitism.

As far as I can tell vast majority (if not all) regular libcom posters recognise that the Israeli state is oppressing and killing Palestinians (and agree this is a very bad thing which Palestinians are bound to struggle against, and anti-authoritarians are bound to oppose).

To me it seems like your not really engaging with the arguments that are put forward, instead you are trying to turn every disagreement with your ideas into a pro-Israel stance, which they don't seem to be, to me. I think most of us would be entirely comfortable saying that we oppose the actions of the Israeli state but we would not go as far to say that Jewish people are controlling the USA state etc. I think the actions of Israel have much to do with standard imperialism and how states behave (ie Israel and other states are colonial, violent and oppressive)...

I also think most libcom posters would also agree that the actions of the Palestinian militants in terms of fighting-back are not on the same scale of harm as the actions of the Israeli state...

Have I missed an important point?

I think the point I'm trying to make is that it is possible to be opposed to the actions of the Israeli state while also disagreeing with the points your making (many of which I confess to not really understanding).

radicalgraffiti
Offline
Joined: 4-11-07
Feb 23 2014 22:24
Drakula25 wrote:
Quote:
Could you explain what you mean by pro-Zionist Mr Natural? Same goes for Dracula25 and their claims that people on libcom support Israel, cause far as i can see you just mean they reject ridicules conspiracy theory's that claim Israel controls US foreign policy. Is that what Zionism/support for Israel is to you? to recognise the US government is some benevolent actor tricked by the mighty power of Israel money?

This thread alone proves that that is a lie. They are reproducing propaganda from explicitly Zionist outfits like the AWL.

I think you are talking about an interview, i cant be bothered to read it in full right now but how does it show people are supporting Israel or Zionism? Because of where it is posted? woudl you make the same claim if someone posted a link to an interview hosted on the BBC website?

Drakula25 wrote:
Khawaga, a few posts above, claims that virtually ANY criticism of Israel is "anti-Semitic," a groundless slander in which he pulls the race card to defend a racist, settler-colonial regime. It's notable that his claim is virtually the same as that of any white supremacist, who sees opposition to white supremacy as some sort of delusional attack on white people. Racists will ALWAYS play the victim.

i cant see where they did that, can you quote it?

could you also explain the use of the term "race card"? i have never seen any one who is not a racist use that term, so why are you?

Drakula25 wrote:
As for the claims about Israel "controlling" US foreign policy, most people with more sophisticated views know that that is probably not true, but to dismiss it as "anti-Semitic" because it is exaggerated is basically the same as Khawaga's arrogant and racist worldview. If you don't agree with a criticism of Israel, it's not because the critic is genuinely opposed to a racist regime and its policies, it is because that critic secretly harbors ill-will toward Jews. Pathetic.

Mr Natural has posted this claim on this thread, and you have called the people who disagreed with them pro Israeli and Zionist.

The idea that Israel control the US through money is derived from the idea that Jews control the world through money and repeating it directly reinforces that particular conspiracy theory. I would have thought someone so concerned about racism would have known how this works?

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 22:40
Quote:
could you also explain the use of the term "race card"? i have never seen any one who is not a racist use that term, so why are you?

The term "race card" signifies that someone is feigning racism or discrimination. I don't know what makes you think it is only used by people who are racist. Anyone who disingenously invokes a claim of prejudice (i.e. suggesting that any criticism of Israel is anti-Jewish) is doing that. It is the equivalent of "crying wolf" about racism.

Quote:
Have I missed an important point?

Yes, quite a few. I encourage you to go back over the last number of comments, especially the pamphlets and statements posted by Black Badger and Khawaga. The pamphlet posted by Black Badger is I think the most telling. This pamphlet, outside of stringing together a number of disparate random incidents to (falsely) allege an international anti-Semitic conspiracy of sorts, advises Palestine solidarity activists to avoid condemning Zionism as a form of racism, because doing so would be "anti-Semitic". Outside of whitewashing Zionism, the pamphlet as a whole is problematic for attempting to witch-hunt anti-Semitism any time a criticism of Israel reminds the author of some vaguely analogous anti-Jewish canard that she disingenuously conflates with whatever statement she doesn't like. The pamphlet is typical of many on the left -- witch-hunting for anti-Semitism where it doesn't exist, conflating any criticism of Israel that one doesn't like with "anti-Semitism," etc, in some cases to explicitly whitewash Zionist racism. That is why I would call Black Badger a Zionist -- he is posting explicitly Zionist literature, whether he realizes it or not.

Quote:
The notion of all-powerful Jews controling American foreign policy does seem to stem from an anti-Semitic outlook. I think the vast majority of us do find the idea that Jews wield grossly disproportionate power in countries in which Jewish people are a minority, is an anti-semitic idea built on conspiracist illogic rather than a material analysis (not saying its impossible for a minority ethnic/religous group to wield disproportionate power, as with Western European colonialism, but I am saying if you keep singling out Israel and Jewish people as the ultimate powerful elite it reeks of antisemitism and its basically an incorrect and harmful idea).

There is a difference between rejecting actual anti-Jewish conspiracy theories like the one you described and dismissing any allegation of racism that privileges Jews, Zionism and Western support for it being the most obvious example.

Quote:
I think you are talking about an interview, i cant be bothered to read it in full right now but how does it show people are supporting Israel or Zionism? Because of where it is posted? woudl you make the same claim if someone posted a link to an interview hosted on the BBC website?

You're comparing the AWL to a news corporation?

The entire AWL worldview on anti-Semitism is an outgrowth of the rest of their worldview about the Middle East, in which all anti-Zionism is reduced to anti-Semitism.

Quote:
i cant see where [Khawaga] did that, can you quote it?

Yes:

Quote:
Jewish exceptionality, whenever that comes up, and it does so a lot your post Drakula, is a form of anti-semitism. Israel is like any other state, the only difference is that their ethnic cleansing (or rather "politicide" as some call it) is happening in the 21st century, in a day and age where we don't like it, when just a few centuries back "our" nations could do it with no problem. A nation-state is a nation-state and it doesn't make it more special or evil or whatever if Jews happen to live in one.

(bold mine)

^^^ Under this worldview, literally ANY opposition to Zionism is reduced to anti-Jewish sentiment because by definition, it would "single out" Israel. This is the same canard used by pro-Israel lobbyists to change the subject any time Palestine solidarity activists bring up Israel's terrible crimes. As I pointed out earlier, the issue is not Israel being singled out unfairly for criticism, but for support, both in words and deeds, by the rest of the world.

Quote:
The idea that Israel control the US through money is derived from the idea that Jews control the world through money and repeating it directly reinforces that particular conspiracy theory. I would have thought someone so concerned about racism would have known how this works?

Alleging that exaggerated anti-Israel sentiment or opposition to Israel's incredibly powerful lobby is the same as Jewish racial world-control conspiracies is dishonest, and THAT is what is being posted above, if you've thumbed through some of this dense bullshit.

Quote:
As far as I can tell vast majority (if not all) regular libcom posters recognise that the Israeli state is oppressing and killing Palestinians (and agree this is a very bad thing which Palestinians are bound to struggle against, and anti-authoritarians are bound to oppose).

If the posters on this thread are representative of libcom, then that is clearly and obviously not true.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Feb 23 2014 23:04

If you can't figure out what my nick means, you've obviously not spent any time in the Arab world whatsoever. I mean, you think it's anti-Arab just because I point out your mental gymnastics for justifying your anti-semitism? And you just made some very strange leaps of logic based off of my comment. Where did I say that Israel shouldn't be criticized? Where did I say anything negative about Arabs? All I did was to point out was that Israel is going precisely what any fucking nation-state has done in the past. It's not different from the history of the formation of Western nation-state, or for that matter what is happening on Sri Lanka now where the Sinhalese have more or less eradicated the Tamil presence. If you could read properly, and in between the lines, I am actually saying that what the Israeli government is doing is akin to ethic cleansing. But somehow this is not condemnation of Israel. Is it because I don't make Palestinian suffering into an exception? Or that I don't see what Israel is doing as some particular, special kind of evil that only Jews are capable of?

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Feb 23 2014 23:07

If you don't get it, I'll spell it out for you. Zionism is a form of nationalism. We're all anti-nationalists, but we don't see the fucking point of giving any special attention to the particular expression of Jewish/Israeli nationalism. It's all the same fucking garbage.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 23:09
Quote:
I am actually saying that what the Israeli government is doing is akin to ethic cleansing

Oh, I get it, you recognize that Israel is doing something horrific, and then defend it anyway. You're worse than ignorant, you're actively racist. That is like saying "I get that the Nazis are slaughtering people, but cumongyz, everyone does bad things, amirite? Don't engage in anti-German bigotry by singling out the Nazis. I mean, America and Britain have been genociding people forever!!!!" and then signing it with the name "Schmuck" or something equally offensive in Yiddish.

Quote:
If you don't get it, I'll spell it out for you. Zionism is a form of nationalism. We're all anti-nationalists, but we don't see the fucking point of giving any special attention to the particular expression of Jewish/Israeli nationalism. It's all the same fucking garbage.

It isn't "all the same" because not every nation is currently engaged in settler-colonialism, but even giving you the benefit of the doubt, you have made it clear that you view ANY attempt by anyone for any reason to oppose Zionism as some kind of "racism," so please stop wasting your breath trying to defend your racist worldview and let them see your comments as living proof of your hatred.

A Wotsit's picture
A Wotsit
Offline
Joined: 14-11-11
Feb 23 2014 23:14
Quote:

Wotsit: As far as I can tell vast majority (if not all) regular libcom posters recognise that the Israeli state is oppressing and killing Palestinians (and agree this is a very bad thing which Palestinians are bound to struggle against, and anti-authoritarians are bound to oppose).

Drakula25: If the posters on this thread are representative of libcom, then that is clearly and obviously not true.

posters on this thread have said (in opposition to Israel and ALL states/ would-be states)

Quote:
Meerov: Genocide, apartheid and military occupation are very ugly things [implied: which Israel is guilty of]. There is no any justifications for them

Quote:
Alf: Israel/Palestine has been a battleground between regional and global imperialist powers, that both Zionism and Palestinian nationalism have always been ideological and material agents of imperialism

Quote:
epk: The thing about Israel is, that even if you're a consistent liberal democrat, or statist anti-Colonialist, you would also oppose Israel [implied: as we libcommers do]

Quote:
satawal: I am of course anti-Israel myself… alongside being anti-Palestine and anti-UK and anti…

Quote:
Malva: There are lots of reasons that the US is involved with Israel in the way that it is [implied: in supporting the oppression and violence it metes against the Palestinians]

Quote:
Tyrion: I'm unsure of the relevance of the Israeli occupation being illegal [implied: it is to be opposed in any case]

and later

Quote:
Where has anyone defended anything the Israeli government has done?

Quote:
radicalgraffiti: you keep saying israeli controls us government policy... Pointing out its not true is not supporting israel [implied: I do not support the actions of Israel]

I can't neatly quote from cantdocartwheels but their first post on the thread seems to imply that the violence of the Israeli state is to be opposed, but that Israel recieves a disproportionate amount of vitriol compared to other states which behave in a similar fashion.

These quotes are all taken from just from the first page, but I think this is enough to prove my point that no one is defending Israel and we are all opposed to state violence.

edit: apologies if I have misrepresented anyone's views but I assume I am quoting fairly here and of course where I have implied/ interpreted it is my own reading.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Feb 23 2014 23:18

Where have I said that "any opposition to Zionism is racism"? I expect you to quote one of my posts in which I said this.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 23:23

A Wotsit, that seems like some pretty generous "interpreting" on your part. Several of the people you quoted, including OP, were not the ones I was referring to.

As I conceded earlier, many of them make SOME criticisms of Israel, but A) several of them do not and B) the ones that do hardly do so in a way that is not problematic for the reasons I listed.

I'd encourage you to read the new topic I posted on anti-Semitism when you get the chance. I would love to hear your thoughts. I think trying to guess at what some of these people are trying to say is probably a waste of your time anyway.

Khawaga, I already did above (in bold), but let me make myself clear if my implication has not already done so: I am not here to argue with Zionists, including you. I am here to post reasonable commentary in what looks like a sea of bullshit. I have literally nothing to say to you, please go back to your corner and keep thinking of excuses to whitewash Zionism.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Feb 23 2014 23:20

Then quote who you are referring to. Don't just make shit up when you can easily provide evidence.

A Wotsit's picture
A Wotsit
Offline
Joined: 14-11-11
Feb 23 2014 23:31

In response to Drakula25: Fair enough, maybe I stretched some of those quotes and perhaps misquoted.

I did find it hard to frame the quotes as explicit denunciations of the actions of Israel but that is because I feel like we all agree that Israel is to be opposed (and this 'goes without saying).

I think this is because saying Israel is bad is so obvious it needn't be repeated, particularly to/by those who frequent a site where most people think all states are bad...

I think most of us are just taking it as read that Israel is to be opposed and mainly people seem to be trying to challenge other points being raised. fwiw I haven't noticed a single quote which I see as pro-Israel.

I will read your other thread when my brain is more rested, I can't promise I'll be able to form a coherent response but I'll give it a crack if I think some useful discussion will come from it.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 23 2014 23:33

A Wotsit,

I wish I shared your optimism. I'm waiting for your thoughtful response.

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Feb 23 2014 23:50
Quote:
Khawaga, I already did above (in bold), but let me make myself clear if my implication has not already done so: I am not here to argue with Zionists, including you. I am here to post reasonable commentary in what looks like a sea of bullshit. I have literally nothing to say to you, please go back to your corner and keep thinking of excuses to whitewash Zionism.

What you quoted in bold is not me saying that any opposition to Zionism is racism. What I said was that the Israeli state is like all other states; it was an argument against Israeli exceptionalism. If you take that to be "any opposition to Zionism is racism" well, then, I have to ask if you passed remedial English.

radicalgraffiti
Offline
Joined: 4-11-07
Feb 24 2014 13:11
Drakula25 wrote:
Quote:
could you also explain the use of the term "race card"? i have never seen any one who is not a racist use that term, so why are you?

The term "race card" signifies that someone is feigning racism or discrimination. I don't know what makes you think it is only used by people who are racist. Anyone who disingenously invokes a claim of prejudice (i.e. suggesting that any criticism of Israel is anti-Jewish) is doing that. It is the equivalent of "crying wolf" about racism.

Literally the only way i have ever seen this used is by right wingers who wish to dismiss actual issues over racism. No one else uses that term because it is the equivalent of moaning about "political correctness".

Drakula25 wrote:
Quote:
I think you are talking about an interview, i cant be bothered to read it in full right now but how does it show people are supporting Israel or Zionism? Because of where it is posted? woudl you make the same claim if someone posted a link to an interview hosted on the BBC website?

You're comparing the AWL to a news corporation?

The entire AWL worldview on anti-Semitism is an outgrowth of the rest of their worldview about the Middle East, in which all anti-Zionism is reduced to anti-Semitism.

I'm comparing one pro Israel organisation with another.

Drakula25 wrote:
Quote:
i cant see where [Khawaga] did that, can you quote it?

Yes:

Quote:
Jewish exceptionality, whenever that comes up, and it does so a lot your post Drakula, is a form of anti-semitism. Israel is like any other state, the only difference is that their ethnic cleansing (or rather "politicide" as some call it) is happening in the 21st century, in a day and age where we don't like it, when just a few centuries back "our" nations could do it with no problem. A nation-state is a nation-state and it doesn't make it more special or evil or whatever if Jews happen to live in one.

(bold mine)

^^^ Under this worldview, literally ANY opposition to Zionism is reduced to anti-Jewish sentiment because by definition, it would "single out" Israel. This is the same canard used by pro-Israel lobbyists to change the subject any time Palestine solidarity activists bring up Israel's terrible crimes. As I pointed out earlier, the issue is not Israel being singled out unfairly for criticism, but for support, both in words and deeds, by the rest of the world.

You are wrong here, nothing about that quote indicates support for Israel or that Israel shouldn't be criticised. The only way i can see that someone could come to this conclusion is if they believe Khawaga supports all other nation states.

I also notice you bold the bit that say Jews doing something doesn't make it more evil, is that because you think Jews doing something is different or special?

Drakula25 wrote:
Quote:
The idea that Israel control the US through money is derived from the idea that Jews control the world through money and repeating it directly reinforces that particular conspiracy theory. I would have thought someone so concerned about racism would have known how this works?

Alleging that exaggerated anti-Israel sentiment or opposition to Israel's incredibly powerful lobby is the same as Jewish racial world-control conspiracies is dishonest, and THAT is what is being posted above, if you've thumbed through some of this dense bullshit.

To say one thing reinforces another is not the same as to say that they are the same thing. Bull shit about the Israeli lobby helps to reinforce anti-Semitism

And incredibly powerful compared to what? Compared with their Palestinian equivalents yes, obviously, but compared with the US's other allies, with its trading partners, with industry lobbies, etc?
And despite this "incredibly powerfully" lobby some how the US always seems to pick the US national interest if there is any clash with what Israel does or wants to do, the exact opposite of what people that go on about the lobby claim.

Drakula25 wrote:
Quote:
As far as I can tell vast majority (if not all) regular libcom posters recognise that the Israeli state is oppressing and killing Palestinians (and agree this is a very bad thing which Palestinians are bound to struggle against, and anti-authoritarians are bound to oppose).

If the posters on this thread are representative of libcom, then that is clearly and obviously not true.

You have yet to quote anything that suggests anyone here doesn't think Israel does vary bad stuff and should be opposed.

Fnordie's picture
Fnordie
Offline
Joined: 6-02-07
Feb 24 2014 04:24

Drakula25 is an amazingly successful troll. Gotta be.

Black Badger
Offline
Joined: 21-03-07
Feb 24 2014 04:43
Quote:
I haven't noticed a single quote which I see as pro-Israel.

Not one. If you can find even one that we all agree is pro-Israel, then you may deserve an apology.
Any delay in my responding to you has much more to do with my real life rather than with cowering in fear at what you must think is your superior intellect. I come to this site in my leisure, which means that I do so according to my schedule, not yours. The insinuation that just because someone doesn't respond immediately to your pearls of wisdom [sic] that they must be afraid is ludicrous. But keep up that self-importance; you'll need it if you decide to slander more and more regular posters here.
I didn't put up those links to offer proof texts, nor do I (and I'd dare say most others here) conceive of a link as the final word on my/our opinions. I posted them as food for thought, nothing more, because first you said Left antisemitism doesn't exist, and when confronted with the perceptions and first-hand experiences of several folks here, you changed your tune to say that it isn't significant. For Jew-baiters and Zionist-baiters like you, there will never be sufficient vitriol from people who don't share your obsessive worldview to establish their anti-Zionist credentials. We've heard the song before: couch your skewed worldview with activist jargon about how you're engaged in a principled fight against White Supremacy and Racism all you like, but your rants will remain unconvincing to people who think for themselves and who aren't motivated by guilt.

Quote:
Drakula25 is an amazingly successful troll. Gotta be.

If I hadn't encountered people who spout such silliness in real life, I might be tempted to think so too. But notice how impenetrable his worldview is; no relevant fact can penetrate its hermetically sealed edges, no counter-argument can make its way into his rigid perspective. When someone says they are against the policies and even the existence of the State of Israel, what they really mean to Drak25 is that they are in favor of the policies and existence of the State of Israel. How does he magically know? Simple: they have not expressed the idea that Jews/Zionists have attained inordinate, disproportionate, and nearly unstoppable power and sinister influence over the course of history, that's how!

Fnordie's picture
Fnordie
Offline
Joined: 6-02-07
Feb 24 2014 06:21

Come on, this is too dumb to be real. Lines like "Oh, I get it, you recognize that Israel is doing something horrific, and then defend it anyway" after the ethnic cleansing thing? Willful misunderstanding is like the easiest way to troll. He's getting great reactions from everybody, too.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 24 2014 10:28
Quote:
But notice how impenetrable his worldview is; no relevant fact can penetrate its hermetically sealed edges, no counter-argument can make its way into his rigid perspective

Notice how Black Badger is incapable of answering questions about his own propaganda. He's too busy spouting off dismissals.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 24 2014 10:38
Quote:
I haven't noticed a single quote which I see as pro-Israel.
Not one. If you can find even one that we all agree is pro-Israel, then you may deserve an apology.

LOL

Quote:
When someone says they are against the policies and even the existence of the State of Israel, what they really mean to Drak25 is that they are in favor of the policies and existence of the State of Israel. How does he magically know? Simple: they have not expressed the idea that Jews/Zionists have attained inordinate, disproportionate, and nearly unstoppable power and sinister influence over the course of history, that's how!

For the record, I didn't say ANY of that, as usual, Khawaga, Black Badger, and other Zionists have to cry wolf about anti-Semitism any time there is opposition to ZIonism that they don't understand or agree with, including mine.

Their opposition to Israel is always conditional on a series of other bullshit assumptions, including, as Khawaga admits above, that it cannot in any way "single out Israel". The presumption is that any suggestion that Israel is distinct at all from any other state for any reason is "anti-Semitism" -- as opposed to recognizing that in many ways, Israel is far worse than many other states.

The idea that Israel is "just another state" is an absolute whitewash, the fact that these Zionist trolls issue empty statements about their opposition to Israel does not change their series of racist statements suggesting otherwise or their propaganda trying to whitewash Israeli settler-colonialism. The fact that they issue contradicting statements (and pamphlets) just shows how dishonest they are.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 24 2014 10:45
Fnordie wrote:
Come on, this is too dumb to be real. Lines like "Oh, I get it, you recognize that Israel is doing something horrific, and then defend it anyway" after the ethnic cleansing thing? Willful misunderstanding is like the easiest way to troll. He's getting great reactions from everybody, too.

He literally recognized that Israel is engaging in 21st century colonialism...and then decided that because other states do it to, Israel should not be "singled out," which effectively means saying ANYTHING about Israel. There is literally no way to address Israeli colonialism without naming Israel (obviously), so effectively, yes, he is defending it or at the very least minimizing it and shielding it from criticism.

It is literally the same excuse used by pro-Israel lobbyists: what about Sudan? what about China? What about North Korea?

Even assuming every state was literally the same (it's not, and to suggest that they are is an absolute lie), he is going forward to say that if you single out Israel for any reason, the reason is that there are Jews in it (?). What a presumptuous crock of shit, designed to shield a settler-colonial regime.

Khawaga wrote:
What I said was that the Israeli state is like all other states; it was an argument against Israeli exceptionalism.

Israel is normal, don't single it out for any reason or else you hate Jews. Gotcha, Zionist.

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 24 2014 10:45
Khawaga wrote:
What I said was that the Israeli state is like all other states; it was an argument against Israeli exceptionalism.

Israel is normal, don't single it out for any reason or else you hate Jews. Gotcha, Zionist.

Entdinglichung's picture
Entdinglichung
Offline
Joined: 2-07-08
Feb 24 2014 11:02
Drakula25 wrote:
Khawaga wrote:
What I said was that the Israeli state is like all other states; it was an argument against Israeli exceptionalism.

Israel is normal, don't single it out for any reason or else you hate Jews. Gotcha, Zionist.

and also a Formalist, Modernist and a Cosmopolite, I presume? ... the question is, why does the atrocious policy of the state of Israel produces different reactions than e.g. the massacres and destruction of more than 2000 villages and hamlets in Turkish Kurdistan 1984-1999, the massacres and mass graves in Baluchistan or the occupations of Western Sahara since 1975 or the occupation of East Timor 1975-1999 by Indonesia or the continuing ethnocide/ecocide against indigenous communities in south America? It is not due to a specific quality of the Israeli politics but due to a different perception which is in my opinion partly due to the fact, that a still existing layer of anti-jewish prejudices in Europe and North America makes it easier to mobilize support against colonialist violence in Gaza than e.g. in the Cudi Mountains or in Tskhinvali

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Feb 24 2014 11:38
Drakula25 wrote:
Their opposition to Israel is always conditional on a series of other bullshit assumptions, including, as Khawaga admits above, that it cannot in any way "single out Israel". The presumption is that any suggestion that Israel is distinct at all from any other state for any reason is "anti-Semitism" -- as opposed to recognizing that in many ways, Israel is far worse than many other states.

The idea that Israel is "just another state" is an absolute whitewash,...

I think that Zionism, in its very nature, is a racist ideology. I also think that there is nothing 'special' about Israel. Lots of states have racist ideologies. I don't think that there is anything exceptional in that.

Why is Israel "far worse than" Turkey, for example? The death toll in Turkish Kurdistan is massively higher (and would still even be higher when factoring in the relative sizes of the populations), and the suppression of culture and identity has certainly been far worse. One could also argue that Kemalism is a racist ideology. What is so special about Israel?

Devrim

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 24 2014 12:06

edit: double post, sry

Drakula25
Offline
Joined: 20-02-14
Feb 24 2014 12:06
Quote:
why does the atrocious policy of the state of Israel produces different reactions than e.g. the massacres and destruction of more than 2000 villages and hamlets in Turkish Kurdistan 1984-1999, the massacres and mass graves in Baluchistan or the occupations of Western Sahara since 1975 or the occupation of East Timor 1975-1999 by Indonesia or the continuing ethnocide/ecocide against indigenous communities in south America? It is not due to a specific quality of the Israeli politics but due to a different perception which is in my opinion partly due to the fact, that a still existing layer of anti-jewish prejudices in Europe and North America makes it easier to mobilize support against colonialist violence in Gaza than e.g. in the Cudi Mountains or in Tskhinvali

That is utter bullshit. Even assuming that the bias you are suggesting existed, why would it be due to "anti-Jewish prejudice"? There is 0 evidence of that.

Fnordie's picture
Fnordie
Offline
Joined: 6-02-07
Feb 24 2014 12:06
Drakula25 wrote:
He literally recognized that Israel is engaging in 21st century colonialism...and then decided that because other states do it to, Israel should not be "singled out," which effectively means saying ANYTHING about Israel.

I'm still pretty sure you're a very dedicated troll. But ok, I'll bite.

What he said was:

Quote:
Israel is like any other state, the only difference is that their ethnic cleansing (or rather "politicide" as some call it) is happening in the 21st century, in a day and age where we don't like it, when just a few centuries back "our" nations could do it with no problem. A nation-state is a nation-state and it doesn't make it more special or evil or whatever if Jews happen to live in one.

Let's break that down: Israel is engaged in genocide. It is not the only state to have committed genocide. There is a controversy around its genocidal agenda because it's the 21st century, and that kind of thing has gone out of fashion. Its "Jewishness" isn't the cause of its behavior. Settler colonialism is.

It might have been phrased too callously or glibly, but that's clearly not a Zionist statement. In this context saying "Israel is like any other state" doesn't mean "Israel has a right to exist," but rather "Israel is a horrific mass murderer, just like the US and UK - all settler states are unforgivable." The point is that no state has a right to exist. Israel's atrocities reflect the whole history of colonialism.

You're seeing Zionists where there aren't any. I mean, just search "Palestine" on libcom and look at any of the articles that come up. A couple people who post here were involved with Anarchists Against the Wall. Folks here might have differing opinions on national liberation struggles, but everyone agrees - fuck Israel.

To be absolutely and painfully clear, I unreservedly support the struggle of the Palestinian people. Israel is a satellite state for the west. We shouldn't single it out for its Jewishness, we should single it out for its ongoing crimes against humanity. We also shouldn't ever forget that our own countries were built on similar crimes, and deserve just as much to be dismantled.