Zionist Hegemony

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Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 11:50
Zionist Hegemony

OK this should have been posted on here ages ago, sorry.Firstly, I would like to make it clear that I am in no way sympathetic or strategically in league with the likes of Hamas or Hezbollah and by the same token am against pseudo-religous fanatical and racist sectarians such as Zionists and the state of Israel.I admit that on previous posts regarding the Middle East I have gone needlessly OTT and pedantic and I'm sorry for that.
However, I do not concede that the Israel/Palestine region would be the same without Zionism.As a secularist from a family that is 90% Christian I am easily wound up by the topic of Israel/Palestine but I can see that without Zionist hegemony there would be more hope for the region and alot less suffering and death.
If we go back, before the present misery and anger of the Palestinian people we find too much more of it.We discover a calculated and shameless persecution by people who believe that just because jews have suffered a holacaust it gives Zionists the right to commit every evil possible on another semitic people.They wield a barbaric and sanctimonious power on as many Palestinians as they wish with delight.This post is here because some people on Libcom accuse me of being ignorant of history, it seems to me though that they are the ignorant ones.I admit, I'm no expert but I am sure that Noam Chomsky, John Pilger and Norman Finkelstein know more about the Middle East than my(often pathetically abusive) critics on this site.
So, lets start with 1967, The Six Day War.The war started when Israel invaded the remaining 22% of Palestine.The Egyptian state was bogged down in the Yemeni cival war which is why the Israelis had 52,000 troops plus 30,000 home guard and the Irgun terrorists.Egypt had no intension of invading Israel because the Arab League could only muster 22,000 troops and it is a lie that Jordan attacked Israel pre-emptively.Further,it was Israel who invaded the de-militarised zone, threatening to occupy Damascus and overthrow the Syrian regime.
In 1948 Arab communities were destroyed by Zionist fanatics, including those in the army.Ethnic 'cleansing' took place, the Deir Yasin massacre being just one slaughter among others.
Now think of the anguish, despair and fury created by the terrorist actions by the likes of Hamas, the inocent people murdered by them and killed because of them.It is ,I am sure, a reality that Hamas was set up with the help of Israel to combat the PLO.It is well known and there are documents to prove it.
1981, Israel invades Lebanon and in 1982 supports a Christian-fascist massacre of refugees in the Sabra and Chatila refugge camps and in doing so creates the Hezbollah.There are many other massacres and oppressions throughout the history of the Israeli state, too many to go through here.
It is also true that Israel helped apartheid South Africa develop nuclear weapons, sold them Uzis and Galil weapons and modified their armoured vehicles.Kibbutzims manufactured helmets for the apartheid thugs.The Israeli state is now busy having their own apartheid, of which I'm sure they are very proud.Israel has also trained the Contras, Guatemalan death squads and fascists in El Salvador.The US and Israel have defied modern international law more times then any other nation on the planet.
Zionists have cynically manipulated the holacaust (something they happily participated in) to suite their own corrupt and oppresive ends, often using it to make alot of money.And lets not forget Zionist organisations taking hefty cuts from holacaust survivers, of whom there are very few left.And also the NMO virtually pledging allegiance to Hitler.
But lets not distract ourselves from the present reality of babies dying because of checkpoints, Red Crescent staff being accused of terrorism, schools vandalised by Isreali soldiers, children shot for going to school, whole communities being terrorized by the IDF and people being shot for going to hospital etc.Israel is a cat eternally toying with it's prey.I recommend the following books:The Holacaust Industry by Norman G. Finkelstein, Failed States BY Noam Chomsky and Freedom Next Time by John Pilger.Also worth checking out these websites:Jews Against Zionism, The Jewish Left-wing Community website and perhaps Jews Not Zionists, although I ain't been on that one for ages.

Terry
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Oct 30 2007 13:41

Zionists did not happily participate in the holocaust, as you say. Always strange to me why leftist critics of Israel bring the holocaust in to a discussion of zionism.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 13:47

According to Jews Against Zionism/True Torah Jews they did.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 13:56

"If I am asked, could you give from the UJA money to rescue Jews?I say no! And no again"- Izaak Greenbaum- Head of Jewish Agency Rescue Commitee 18/2/43 Addressed to the Zionist Executive Council.This is just one example from the website, I'm sure there is much more of this stuff.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 14:04

"One cow in Palestine is worth all the jews in Poland"- Izaak Greenbaum.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 14:07

"If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Israel, then I opt for the second alternative"- Ben Gurion.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 14:10

Obviously the Israeli stae did not exist at this time but the Zionists were campaining/lobbying and apparently this was atleast quite successful.

Dust
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Oct 30 2007 14:11

Christ, thats some claim to make. I am not an expect on this by a long way but from what i know while the holocaust has been used as a justification for the policies of Isreal, and some zionists may have, in a very contorted fashion, welcomed the holocaust as proof that Jews needed a state of their own but the idea of Zionists on mass "happily participating" is the holocaust is a ridiculous claim and pretty disgusting.

If you have some proper sources for this i would be interested in reading it. I don't consider a bunch of people who contest that their reading of a holy book is a truer reading than the zionists reading to be an accurate source.

The role played by Zionist organisations in the defence of the Warsaw ghetto tends to go against your hypothesis.

" Prepare to defend yourselves in case the enemy attempts to completely destroy your community!" 1 This was the new slogan of the Hashomer Hatzair Zionist youth movement in Warsaw in April 1942 when word spread of the destructive tidal wave engulfing Jews. By March of the same year, implementation of the "Final Solution" had reached Lublin and other ghettos within German-occupied Poland. While anxiously anticipating the Red Army's spring offensive after the Russian snows began to melt, the Hashomer Hatzair engaged itself in an antifascist struggle. These two commitments--a Jewish one and a pro-Soviet one--were two facets of the same dramatic landmark in the ideological odyssey that Hashomer Hatzair in Warsaw traversed between the outbreak of World War II and April 1943 when, alongside other groups, it led the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising."

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/jewish_social_studies/v007/7.1cohen.html

Dust
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Oct 30 2007 14:13

The quotes you used above are shocking but without the context of them they are useless. Also the do not show "happy participation", only callous indifference

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 14:16

Well obviously you are reffering to socialist/left wing zionists and not out and out fascists like Ben Gurion who wanted to allie with Hitler and fight the British.

Terry
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Oct 30 2007 14:22

None of those quotes show 'happy participation' in the Holocaust. They don't even show participation in the Holocaust. They show that some Zionists were more interested in getting Jews to Palestine than getting Jews away from the Third Reich.

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Joseph Kay
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Oct 30 2007 14:26

weren't there zionist cops in the warsaw ghetto, or am i getting my history from hollywood again? (of course there were also zionists orchestrating the uprising, so if so talk of a singular zionism falls down)

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 14:31

As late as 1943, while the Jews of Europe were being exterminated in their millions, the U.S. Congress proposed to set up a commission to "study" the problem. Rabbi Stephen Wise, who was the principal American spokesperson for Zionism, came to Washington to testify against the rescue bill because it would divert attention from the colonization of Palestine.

This is the same Rabbi Wise who, in 1938, in his capacity as leader of the American Jewish Congress, wrote a letter in which he opposed any change in U.S. immigration laws which would enable Jews to find refuge. He stated:

"It may interest you to know that some weeks ago the representatives of all the leading Jewish organizations met in conference ... It was decided that no Jewish organization would, at this time, sponsor a bill which would in any way alter the immigration laws."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exaggerated Stories of Starvation?? You decide...Salli Mayer: “. . . what is happening in Poland are exaggerated stories. . . the way of the Ost Yuden. . .always asking for money.”

Terry
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Oct 30 2007 14:49

Still no 'happy participation' in the Holocaust. Was Irgun putting people on cattle trucks, no.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 14:52

Ok perhaps you lot are right but what do you think of the rest of my post?

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Bill Shatner
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Oct 30 2007 18:11
BF wrote:
According to Jews Against Zionism/True Torah Jews they did.

So you are saying that because another group of reactionary superstitious nut jobs claim that the victims of the holocaust willingly participated in actions that led to their own deaths we should take it as fact?

Good grief.

In any case, who wrote the law that states we must "take sides" when approaching a conflict between two equally reactionary groups?

Since I'm not a "nationalist" and oppose the idea of states as well as opposing superstition and terrorism I think we, as responsible beings, must vehemently oppose both sides.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 20:10

I am not saying that victims of the holocaust are responsible for their own deaths, that's not my understanding at all. I'm saying that Zionists, including those that wanted an alliance with Hitler were perhaps responsible for deaths during the holacaust or just didn't care about some jews, especially those that were not Zionists.Anyway I think we have discussed this enough now and would appreciate thoughts on other aspects of my post.

Deezer
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Oct 30 2007 22:20

What evidence have you that Ben Gurion was a fascist who wanted to ally with Hitler to fight the British?

Genuine interest, I've never saw anything that suggested this and tbh it seems pretty bizarre.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 22:28

I came across this on the Jews Against Zionism site, the part about the holacaust.It was a link though ,which I think was written by Tony Cliff.It was a 'socialist' website have forgotton the name of it.It might be on the Zionism InThe Age of Dictators bit but I'm sure you could Google it if you can't find it.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 22:37

I have just looked for the article, it's by Tony Cliff.I can't access it, don't know why.Anyway it's on a website called Reds-Die Roten which you can read in English.It's on the Middle East part of the website, look out for the Israel/palestine section it's on there.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 22:42

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

"The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.

2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,

3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany's side."

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 22:45

I believe that Ben Gurion was part of the same fascist movement as Stern.I think Ben Gurion took over after Stern or the other way around, I forget, but if memory serves me correctly Stern was killed by the British.

Black Flag
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Oct 30 2007 22:47

I wonder if he's any relation to Howard Stern?

pgh2a
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Oct 31 2007 03:50
Quote:
Exaggerated Stories of Starvation?? You decide...Salli Mayer: “. . . what is happening in Poland are exaggerated stories. . . the way of the Ost Yuden. . .always asking for money.”

What is this all about? Some third positionist shite?

syndicalist
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Oct 31 2007 05:11

This is a very odd thread.

Anyway, Stern was ultra-right. He was a racist, nationalist. His views represented a fraction of immediate post-WW2 zionism, but a militant, armed struggle faction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

Ben Gurion was an Israeli social democratic zionist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

Some within the zionist movement backchannled relations with Germany to try and negotiate conditions for Jewish exodus from parts of Europe. This was not done on facist basis, perhaps nationalist, but not facist.

The zionist movement, pre ww2, was mainly a bourgeois movement. Even the mass social democratic "Bund" was anti-zionist.

The British Jewish leftist site writes of the Bund:

"The Bundists believed that Zionism was not the solution to the problems the Jews face. They believed the creation of a Jewish state would not be a paradise and the problems of capitalism such as poverty and war would still occur.

Some Bundists did migrate to Palestine and were heavily involved in the development of the Kibbutzim and the future Israeli Left. However most Bundists preferred to build a better society for everyone in the countries which they were living in."
http://www.left-wing.net/history/jewishbund.htm

I think it's clear that the geo-politics of all forms of nationalism and general imperialism has allowed for the mass of Jewish and Arab people to suffer bloodily. And for many Palestinian's to be forceably removed from lands they lived on since time eternal. The craze for tit-for-tat violence has become an obscene way of life for both. The human indignities imposed on the Palestinians are vulgar and need be opposed, no doubt.

As long as their will be drives towards nationalism and national and racial solutions, the crazy cycle of human tragedy will continue.

syndicalist
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Oct 31 2007 05:23

Ok, the article appears on an ultra-religious (Jewish) antiizionist site.

"The Brutal Zionist Role in the Holocaust"
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm

The "True Torah Jews Against Zionism - Our Mission" statement can be found here: http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/about/mission.cfm

The essense of these folks (and others like them) is only when Hashem appears will the creation of a Jewish homeland come about. This is why an ultra appeared at the conference on zionism in Iran last summer or so.

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Felix Frost
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Oct 31 2007 05:29
Black Flag wrote:
I believe that Ben Gurion was part of the same fascist movement as Stern.I think Ben Gurion took over after Stern or the other way around, I forget, but if memory serves me correctly Stern was killed by the British.

I think you'll need to read up on this subject before continuing your anti-Zionist campaign. As it is, you just seem ill-informed.
Ben Gurion was a leftist Zionist and was never part of "the same fascist movement as Stern". You are probably thinking of Yitzhak Shamir.

pgh2a
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Oct 31 2007 10:25

He's obviously trying...really hard. For what, I'm not exactly sure.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 10:31

On the night of April 9, 1948, the Irgun Zvei Leumi surrounded the village of Deir Yasin, located on the outskirts of Jerusalem. After giving the sleeping residents a 15 minute warning to evacuated, Menachem Begin's terrorists attacked the village of 700 people, killing 254 mostly old men, women and children and wounding 300 others. Begin's terrorists tossed many of the bodies in the village well, and paraded 150 captured women and children through the Jewish sectors of Jerusalem.
I was getting Baigin confused with Ben Gurion.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 10:50

What I am trying to put accross is that the Israel/Palestine region would be better off without Zionism, certainly the right-wing variety.I think that Isreal should give back the land they stole from thr Arabs.Ideally there would be no states and Jews and Arabs could live together within the same area.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 10:52

Perhaps though it would be less complicated if the Israelis just gave back the land pre-1967.That would be a start.