Zionist Hegemony

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Khawaga
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Oct 31 2007 12:53
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What I am trying to put accross is that the Israel/Palestine region would be better off without Zionism, certainly the right-wing variety.

The what ifs of history is pretty much useless to debate IMO. There was plenty of reactionary shit going on in the Middle East sans Zionsim. The fucked up situation now is more down to imperial designs (specifically Britain and France, later the US) of which creating a Jewish homeland was just a small, though not insignificant part. In this the Zionist were happily colluding with all kinds of imperial powers from before WWI until WWII. They petitioned the leaders of Britian, France, Germany, the Ottoman Empire, Russia, USA etc. and while there was some talks and collusion between Zionists and Nazi it's not the smoking gun that a lot of pople, mainly of the Jewish conspiracy type, believe.

Of course the insertion of a Jewish homeland into Palestine spelled disaster for lots of Palestinians, mainly very poor tenant farmers, but also really made things much much worse for the jewish populations living in other countries in the end leading to their expulsion and disposession.

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Perhaps though it would be less complicated if the Israelis just gave back the land pre-1967.That would be a start.

What do you mean with pre-1967? West Bank and Gaza, or the land that was annexed with the Nakba/War for Independence? What about the land that absent Palestinian landlords sold to Jews and Jewish organizations? What would you do with Israelis now living on occupied land? The latter are often relatively poor working class Israelis; quite a few settlements have the dual purpose of being social welfare and creating facts on the ground by transforming the Israeli working class into civilian occupiers.

Anyway, Black Flag, my points is that your views on this is a bit simplistic, it's borderline consipracy theory . Aufheben's got a pretty good article on the conflict; at least it's based on a class analysis.

sphinx
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Oct 31 2007 14:10

Black Flag, you haven't answered anyone about that text about 'the way of Ost Yuden', what's that? A quote?

BTW this thread belongs in libcommunity, so far none of Black Flag's contributions meet the qualifications of 'history'.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 14:27

Yes, the Ost Yuden thing is a quote.By pre-1967 I am refering to the land that the Palestinians want back.Anyway this ain't goin anywhere so I give up, atleast for now.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 14:32

Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert I'm just suggesting things, I'm not saying that Jews must give up land but don't you think it would be good?Instead of Palestinian leaders being bitches of Isreal.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 14:44

Perhaps your right about a lack of class analysis but I stealing people's land is not right, those arabs owned that land for hundreds of years they were forced out for not being jewish and because they did not have documents that they could not have obtained.

sphinx
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Oct 31 2007 14:47

::exits thread::

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Khawaga
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Oct 31 2007 14:53
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By pre-1967 I am refering to the land that the Palestinians want back

Quite a few Palestinians want all the land back, i.e. expell all jews and regain historical Palestine. This is by far a minority position, but not insignificant. Hamas considers all of historical Palestine to be an Islamic endowment (waqaf), though they've said that they will settle for West Bank and the Gaza strip by now (and to be fair, Hamas' position on this is much more nuanced than this as well). I take it that you refer to West Bank and Gaza Strip (plus Jerusalem) as this is what most Palstinians according to various opinion polls want.

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Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert I'm just suggesting things, I'm not saying that Jews must give up land but don't you think it would be good?Instead of Palestinian leaders being bitches of Isreal.

Please do keep on suggesting things, I wasn't having a go or anything, just trying to say that things are a bit more complex (too complex IMO).

I do not think that just giving up land will be enough; though practically in very many cases a lot of Palestinians, especially those living in villages and depends on agriculture, would benefit. The problem with this argument is that it dove-tails calls for the establishment of a Palstinian state, which in turn often means support for the bourgeoisie-national project. Because, let's face it: those Palestian leader who are the bitches of Israel would just be the proud new Palestinian bitches of capital and would do very little for most working class Palestinians.

The situation in Palestine is extremely complicated and it is very difficult for libcommers and the like to make sense of it simply because the working classes in Palestine and Israel, and to some extent in the wider Middle East, are weak and divided (though the stirrings in Iran and Egypt are very promising). Calls for working class unity are often very abstact and hollow.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 14:54

Sounds like a good idea, I may do the same.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 14:57

Whats so difficult to grasp here anyway?The zionists/jews in Isreal should give back land to the arabs, especially the settlers.Both states dhould either be destroyed (by revolution)or be at peace with one another.Or maybe the two states/areas should become one.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 14:59

By the way people would not be able to sell the zionists land if there was no zionist settlers there in the first place.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 15:02

Yes kahwaga, I agree.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 15:04

i would also opt for the amount of land that the MAJORITY of Palestinians want back.Was not aware that Hamas wanted it all back.

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Devrim
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Oct 31 2007 15:39
Black Flag wrote:
Perhaps your right about a lack of class analysis but I stealing people's land is not right, those arabs owned that land for hundreds of years they were forced out for not being jewish and because they did not have documents that they could not have obtained.

A complete lack of class analysis. It has nothing to say about the working class at all.

Devrim

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Devrim
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Oct 31 2007 15:43
Black Flag wrote:
i would also opt for the amount of land that the MAJORITY of Palestinians want back.Was not aware that Hamas wanted it all back.

Just another point; how are you privy to exactly what the majority of Palestinians are asking want Hamas took 44.45% of the vote. That is very nearly a majority. Do you have any data that says the majority is against their position.

Devrim

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Khawaga
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Oct 31 2007 16:08
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Just another point; how are you privy to exactly what the majority of Palestinians are asking want Hamas took 44.45% of the vote. That is very nearly a majority. Do you have any data that says the majority is against their position.

Opinion polls consistently show that a majority (about 2/3 give or take) wants the West Bank and Gaza strip back and then it would be peace basically. Though, the last few polls I saw were prior to the elections so opinions might have changed. In any case the reason for Palestinians to vote for Hamas are many and varied and has probably more to do with the corruption and ineptitude of PLO/Fatah and Hamas' image as non-corrupt (actually that is more than just an image) and resisting than with maximalist goals regarding the territory of Palestine.

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By the way people would not be able to sell the zionists land if there was no zionist settlers there in the first place.

Land can be sold to pople wanting to come and live in said land, or to organizations that want immigration to happen. Palestine also had an indigenous Jewish population I might add.

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The zionists/jews in Isreal should give back land to the arabs, especially the settlers

But give back to whom? This is my point about the lack of a class analysis. Back in the day a majority of Palestinians were tenant farmers with no titles. Should the land go back to the old land-owning classes? To the state? And although land distribution could take place, that is no safeguard against situtations where peasants need to sell their land to survive.

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Yes kahwaga, I agree.

What do you agree with? Multiple post so it's confusing to follow you. You shouldn't pull a Lem wink

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 21:56

I was agreeing with what you said about Palestinian leaders and capital. The land should be given back to the Palestinian people, perhaps the ones that were booted out originally or their relatives if possible but I guess that might be hard. I think what you said about buying and selling land makes sense aswell.
I wouldn't go as far as to say that Pilger, Chomsky, Finkelstein and even Cliff are conspiracy nuts as someone insinuated earlier. I also strongly disagree that my posts have been discusting, thats crazy if you ask me, I'm just putting things accross as I understand them. It's almost as if I'm being accused of being anti-semtic. I believe that Zionism is the main cause of dividing the working class in the region. This view may be shared with Marxists but I unashamedly think it is true. There was a time when Arabs were in the Kibbutzims, thanks to Zionism (Jewish Nationalism) those days have long past.

Black Flag
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Oct 31 2007 22:08

I also believe that Zionism is responsible for Islamic fundementalism/extremism in the region.To give an example this is from a book I read several months ago, It was either Freedom Next Time by John Pilger or Failed States by Noam Chomsky I forget exactly which one it was:

'a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong secular PLO by using a competing religous alternative', in the words of a former Mid East CIA official.Evidence is obtained from Israeli-based Institue for Counter Terrorism.

This of course refers to Isreal helping Hamas/The Islamic Brotherhood.Wether you believe this to be nutty or not there is plenty of other evidence of Zionism breeding terror such as the case of the Hezbollah as mentioned above and their treatment of the Palestinian people as well as the 'peace process'.

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Red Marriott
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Oct 31 2007 23:34

In the 1930s there was a fascistic Zionist Brownshirt movement -
see article here.
In pointing this out I don't mean to support or encourage Black Flag's simplistic generalisations.

pgh2a
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Nov 1 2007 02:07

BlackFlag: you never did say why you posted that "Ost Yuden" quote.

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for hundreds of years they were forced out for not being jewish

I was not aware native non-Jewish populations were expelled from the region for hundreds of years for not being Jewish. Do you have a source for this information?

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I also believe that Zionism is responsible for Islamic fundementalism/extremism in the region.

There is certainly Islamic fundamentalism in other areas without Zionism. What about in parts of Africa or the former Soviet states? But yes, a divide and conquer strategy has been used by both Israel and the USA (and many other players) in the region.

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There was a time when Arabs were in the Kibbutzims, thanks to Zionism (Jewish Nationalism) those days have long past.

Do you know what a kibbutz is? There are stil a few multi-ethnic/religious kibbutzim in Israel (though I admit information is sparse -- perhaps some Palestinian or Israeli libcommers could shed some light on this)

On another note, how would you handle the Jewish population that went to Israel after WWII from detention/refugee camps? My understanding is many had no where else to go (because of the machinations of some Zionists, US immigration policy, the policies of European nations, and the fact they were flat broke). What about the Ethiopian Jews who came to Israel or those who came from the Middle Eastern countries, more or less as refugees? Clearly, this is not a simple problem.

What I don't really get is why so many folks foam at the mouth about what is going on in Israel towards the Palestinian population (which is clearly unjust) but do not seem to get riled-up the same way about similar human rights abuses elsewhere.

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 11:07

I didn't say they were forced out for hundreds of years.I said Arabs who had been there for hundreds of years were forced out.

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 11:09

Thats what I meant anyway.

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 11:15

And yes I do know what a Kibbutz is, stop patronising me.Actually what the fuck is the point?

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 11:16

I'm beginning to understand why certain people were smacked in the mouth last week.

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Khawaga
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Nov 1 2007 11:40
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I wouldn't go as far as to say that Pilger, Chomsky, Finkelstein and even Cliff are conspiracy nuts as someone insinuated earlier. I also strongly disagree that my posts have been discusting, thats crazy if you ask me, I'm just putting things accross as I understand them. It's almost as if I'm being accused of being anti-semtic.

I did not accuse you of being anti-semitic at all, I was just pointing out that the situation is much more complex. It is very easy to forget "the other side" in the conflict, which unfortunately is not as monolithic as many leftists would like to believe.

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I believe that Zionism is the main cause of dividing the working class in the region.

As I tried to point out earlier; nationalism (as imperialist design) is the major force for diving the working class in the region. Zionism is just nationalism. Though I do agree that Zionism/Israel has and is being used by many Arab states to deflect internal dissent. Much like Iran is doing now with American Imperialism (and Zionism, but to a lesser extent at the moment I believe).

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There was a time when Arabs were in the Kibbutzims, thanks to Zionism (Jewish Nationalism) those days have long past.

From what I know of this the Arabs that were in the kibbutzim were just working there, not in any way part of the kibbutz. Though, tbh I am not sure if this was the case in every kibbutz. Could you please provide me with a reference, I would be interested to read about this.

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I also believe that Zionism is responsible for Islamic fundementalism/extremism in the region.

Again this is taking a fact and drawing too wide conclusions. Yes, Israel did support the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood after 1967, and Hamas (an MB offshoot) in the beginning of the intifada to weaken the secular groups, but it did not start Hamas. Israeli actions can be said to be responsible for Islamic fundamentalism in Palestine as you say, but not directly as such. The same can be said for Hezbollah as they were formed in the wake of Israeli invasions of Lebanon, but can also be seen as a response to the power of the PLO in Souther Lebanon.

In the wider region it is very a very problematic statement. Most Islamic Fundamentalist groups (or political islamic groups that turn violent) have more to do with the Arab regimes than with Zionism and Israel. E.g. the original Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood was formed in 1928 (the Palestinian one in 1936 I might add), and turned violent or spawned violent after Nasser and Sadat improsoned and tortured many of their activists. The manifesto of most of the Jihadi/Salafi groups, Milestones, was written by Sayid Qutb when he was imprisoned and tortured in Egyptian jails (the book is the political Islamic equivalent of Gramsci's Prison Notebooks) He was later executed by Nasser, in part, because of this book. The book is very bitter, very pissed off with Nasser and other Arab regimes. His indignation is that they're supposed to be Muslim, but behave like tyrants towards their fellow Muslims in the Umma (to put it very simply). It is very different from Qutb's early writings such as Social Justice in Islam and his Quranic interpretations, both of which can be said to be very moderate and liberal texts. Milestones, on the other hand argued for the excommunication of Muslims and justified the killing of other Muslims. The book has spawend many so called Takfiri and Hijra groups, and the book is an inspiration for bin Laden and company. All of this was a product of internal Egyptian experience, Zionism only tangentially related.

What you're missing from your analysis (apart from class) are the internal dialectics in Arab states. Domestic affairs simply does not exist for you; it is deflected onto external agent and the agency of e.g. the working class or other groups in society simply do not exist. It is this kind of thinking that can lead to the typical anti-imperialist stance and support for various nationalist groups. Though, I am not accusing you of this at all (and you explicity said that you do not support groups like this in the OP).

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Khawaga
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Nov 1 2007 11:57

Hey guydebordisdead, fucking leave it. Some of us are actually trying to have a discussion here.

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 13:43

Here is a link about the Kibbutz that may be of interest http://zmag.org/ZSustainers/ZDaily/1999-08/24chomsky.htm I am having trouble finding out about Arabs on the Kibbutz but certainly they got on at first. At the Bookfair I went to the workers council meeting and the bloke speaking told me that Arabs were on the Kibbutz but things got very nationalistic and they were booted out, this is around the time that jews were provided with documents and Arabs were not.

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 13:47

I'm sure I didn't say that Isreal actually set up Hamas, I just meant that they helped them and shouldn't have done.It's like the US helping Bin Laden in afghanistan.

Black Flag
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Nov 1 2007 13:55

That's very interesting, about the Arab regimes, does make sense.I guess thats why Sadat was assasinated, he fuelled Islamic fundementalism.I was refering specifically to the Israel/Palestine region though but perhaps it is connected.Did the US have anything to do with any of this?They didn't like Nasser and ofcourse neither did the British government.

pgh2a
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Nov 2 2007 00:47

But wasn't the kibbutz a labor Zionist design?

syndicalist
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Nov 2 2007 06:10

Here's an interesting article by Yaacov Oved. "Anarchism in the Kibbutz Movement"
http://raforum.info/article.php3?id_article=2379&lang=en

While there are many laudable things about kibbutzim, one must still remember that they were always for the Jewish proletariat. The kibbutz was never intended to have "hired labor" (usually Palestinian). It was to be a form of jewish socialism (be it libertarian or socialist-zionist).

This has changed over the years on most of the kibbutzim. Many have brought in light industry and have factories within their primeters. Most of the factory workers are wage laborers.

For the heavy stuff on zionist-socialism, go to the Ber Borochov Internet Archive http://www.angelfire.com/il2/borochov/

David from Atlanta linked to this very interesting book. Folks interested in the Jewish Palestinian and Arab Palestinian left should check this out:

http://libcom.org/forums/history/comrades-enemies-arab-jewish-workers-palestine-1906-1948-12092007