17 may be hanged for crime they didn't commit.

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Arthur
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May 22 2010 11:40
17 may be hanged for crime they didn't commit.

Hi guys, I know that we have huge differences in our opinions so you may be shocked that I'm asking for your help.

Our Sikh brothers and sisters in the EDL have asked for support in fighting this and I wondered if you could support this petition.

Cheers Arthur.

gypsy
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May 22 2010 11:49

Where is this case Arthur? A link would be helpful.

Arthur
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May 22 2010 13:14

More here,

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE25/001/2010/en/fc004126-e17a-483d-ab91-33ce4db4669d/mde250012010en.html

Arthur.

gypsy
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May 22 2010 13:31

Ok cheers.

John1
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May 22 2010 14:10

Window gloss.

Arthur
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May 22 2010 14:22
Richard wrote:
Window gloss.

Pardon.

Arthur.

Steve_j
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May 22 2010 16:18
Quote:
*Urging the authorities to ensure that the 17 Indian nationals are protected from further torture and other ill-treatment, and that any evidence obtained under torture is not used in court;
*Calling for an independent and impartial investigation into reports that they were tortured, with the results made public and those allegedly responsible held to account;
*Expressing concern at the unfair trial of the 17, and calling on the authorities to ensure that they are afforded a fair trial on appeal without recourse to the death penalty.

Yes i can and will support that.

And authur, im sure you might have seen it, but at the end of your EDL thread is a link to the recent BBC report on the EDL, would be interested to know what you thought of it.

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JoeMaguire
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May 22 2010 21:03

Forgive my ignorance but if these 17 were being ill treated here, would you give two hoots?

Kirillov
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May 23 2010 08:35
october_lost wrote:
Forgive my ignorance but if these 17 were being ill treated here, would you give two hoots?

Obviously I'm unable to speak with any authority, but one would hope that all those who 'give two hoots' do so because of the torture alleged, and killing possibly resultant, not because of the geographical and political locale.

Arthur
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May 23 2010 09:40
october_lost wrote:
Forgive my ignorance but if these 17 were being ill treated here, would you give two hoots?

I like to believe I would, I totally disagree with the death penalty for any crime because it is so final, mistakes are made and anyway killing people is wrong.

The petition on it's own may not have much influence, but every little helps.

Anyway, thank you to those who signed, I think we got close to 20 pages of sigs yesterday, so many thanks.

Cheers.

Arthur
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May 23 2010 10:14
Steve_j wrote:
Quote:
*Urging the authorities to ensure that the 17 Indian nationals are protected from further torture and other ill-treatment, and that any evidence obtained under torture is not used in court;
*Calling for an independent and impartial investigation into reports that they were tortured, with the results made public and those allegedly responsible held to account;
*Expressing concern at the unfair trial of the 17, and calling on the authorities to ensure that they are afforded a fair trial on appeal without recourse to the death penalty.

Yes i can and will support that.

And authur, im sure you might have seen it, but at the end of your EDL thread is a link to the recent BBC report on the EDL, would be interested to know what you thought of it.

I was very disappointed, the program set out to prove racism and to find a link to the BNP, not to examine why we exist and why so many are joining, it missed a chance.

I know that we attract idiots and racist thugs and it sickens me but I feel that we are more on top of it now. Yesterdays march went really well with no trouble at all.

I think that the nazis and racists are at last learning we don't want them, that we hate them.

The people who made the docu didn't talk to the grass roots of our movement, it concentrated on one or two people. Who didn't really say enough about what we stood for.

Officially the EDL has no position on immigration so why was it talked about in the sense of immigrants get more than us, do they? I don't know but I'm not in the EDL because of immigration and nor are most of us.
It's a smaller world now and we have to get used to it, those who think we can travel back in time are deluded and so far most of the Ismalist extremists were in fact born here.

What impression did it give you?

Arthur.

Ariege
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May 23 2010 11:48

Why is the English Defence League called the English Defence League?

I have read a few of your posts Arthur and for the life of me I can't work out why your organisation has chosen that name. The thing is that Englishness has been appropriated time and again by nutters over the centuries; you realise I am sure that we once had our own variety of fundamentalists who happily flew the cross of St George whilst, amongst other things, deposing and executing the King, banning dancing and singing and putting a stop to Christmas.

gypsy
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May 23 2010 13:38

Arthur,

Most anarchists don't agree with nationalism. So it would be hard for us to tolerate your organisation. Instead of trying to build bridges with the muslim community and the working class you guys just seem to go around starting riots. The state also does the same things you lot do in a bigger way, I will use a quote from an article I read on the Independent Working Class Association website which sums up my thoughts better.

Quote:
4) The promotion of identity politics fosters artificial divisions within the working class and helps to encourage a racialised view of the world, preparing the ground for race-based politics. This view of society simply doesn’t reflect fundamental conflicts over economic and societal power yet it has the potential to fatally fragment each and every progressive working class movement in the future. Like the Labour Party, the BNP is fully signed up to the notion of identity politics, to the extent that their magazine is called ‘Identity’.
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JoeMaguire
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May 23 2010 14:46
Kirillov wrote:
october_lost wrote:
Forgive my ignorance but if these 17 were being ill treated here, would you give two hoots?

Obviously I'm unable to speak with any authority, but one would hope that all those who 'give two hoots' do so because of the torture alleged, and killing possibly resultant, not because of the geographical and political locale.

Point taken. The issue I am making is that I believe if this wasn't a muslim state carrying out injustices Arthur wouldn't have bothered us with it. I mean, you don't have to do a hell of alot of research to know we deport and detain immigrants in the UK and some of them are fucking children or have fled persecution abroad. This saddened and if it wasn't for the campaign by locals they would have removed. And least we forget this.

gypsy
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May 23 2010 15:31

I understand where you are coming from October_lost, I felt the same when I read that. Arthur I wonder what you think of this case that happened in glasgow in March.

gypsy
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May 23 2010 15:30

double post

raw
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May 23 2010 20:16

October Lost hits the nail on the head. It has NOTHING to do with some sort of humanitarian cause but follows an agenda for the EDL - muslim country, sharia law, death penalty.

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Nyarlathotep
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May 23 2010 21:19

Obviously we should support these victims of capitalism, but the $25,000 question is; how would cooperating with the EDL help us in any way?

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Joseph Kay
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May 23 2010 21:39

transparent. if the EDL gave a shit about human rights they'd join Amnesty International, not selectively cite their reports when it suits their agenda of thinly-veiled racist scapegoating.

no1
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May 23 2010 23:36
Arthur wrote:
I totally disagree with the death penalty for any crime because it is so final, mistakes are made and anyway killing people is wrong.

That's very good of you Arthur. But you know, UAE is far away and don't really care a lot about internet petitions. The British government on the other hand is closer and much more likely to respond to pressure from people like yourself. So I trust you will be campaigning even harder against practices that have caused the British state to execute innocents even though it's mostly a risk to Muslim-looking guys.

Arthur
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May 24 2010 14:25
Ariege wrote:
Why is the English Defence League called the English Defence League?

I have read a few of your posts Arthur and for the life of me I can't work out why your organisation has chosen that name. The thing is that Englishness has been appropriated time and again by nutters over the centuries; you realise I am sure that we once had our own variety of fundamentalists who happily flew the cross of St George whilst, amongst other things, deposing and executing the King, banning dancing and singing and putting a stop to Christmas.

The name English carried with it baggage in the sense that if you said I'm English, you were immediately racist and we wanted to reclaim it for all those born in England, no matter the colour of your skin. You can be English and proud of it.

Arthur.

Arthur
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May 24 2010 14:42
allybaba wrote:
Arthur,

Most anarchists don't agree with nationalism. So it would be hard for us to tolerate your organisation. Instead of trying to build bridges with the muslim community and the working class you guys just seem to go around starting riots. The state also does the same things you lot do in a bigger way, I will use a quote from an article I read on the Independent Working Class Association website which sums up my thoughts better.

Quote:
4) The promotion of identity politics fosters artificial divisions within the working class and helps to encourage a racialised view of the world, preparing the ground for race-based politics. This view of society simply doesn’t reflect fundamental conflicts over economic and societal power yet it has the potential to fatally fragment each and every progressive working class movement in the future. Like the Labour Party, the BNP is fully signed up to the notion of identity politics, to the extent that their magazine is called ‘Identity’.

That would be right if you applied it to the BNP but EDL want all races to join us, most of us want anyone who loves their country to stand with us.

People have to live in the real world and accept that the world is smaller and multi ethnic societies will and are becoming the norm.
Certainly non of my politics are influenced by race.
So I don't see EDL involved in identity politics other than wanting to unite England and all it's people.

Arthur.

Ariege
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May 24 2010 14:44

I'll let you into a secret Arthur, I am English and I am very happy to be so. Although I live in France, there is much about England I love: I love the landscapes; the history; I love cricket; I support QPR; I love English beer and English cheese. England is where I was born and raised. I am English not British, and England is one of Europe's "lost nations".
Still, for me, none of that is a sound basis for political action. Why don't you read William Morris or George Orwell? Get hold of something by Colin Ward, read E.P Thompson 'The Making of the English Working Class'. There are more sensible ways to oppose religious fundamentalism than the EDL, ways that, frankly, won't appear to put you in the same company as some pretty small minded people, racists and fascists.

Arthur
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May 24 2010 14:50
allybaba wrote:
I understand where you are coming from October_lost, I felt the same when I read that. Arthur I wonder what you think of this case that happened in Glasgow in March.

I think many of these cases are sad and in the case of the Russians, tragic.

Innocent children should not be kept in jail and there must be a better way of dealing with this. Hopefully the home office will listen and find a different way.

Arthur.

Arthur
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May 24 2010 14:56

This case was pointed out to us via our Sikh members but the reason I have brought it here was not so that you would be helping EDL but for humanitarian reasons. I know you guys are not suddenly going to see the light and all rush to Join the EDL, lol.

I wanted to do some good, that's it really.

Arthur.

Arthur
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May 24 2010 15:53
Ariege wrote:
I'll let you into a secret Arthur, I am English and I am very happy to be so. Although I live in France, there is much about England I love: I love the landscapes; the history; I love cricket; I support QPR; I love English beer and English cheese. England is where I was born and raised. I am English not British, and England is one of Europe's "lost nations".
Still, for me, none of that is a sound basis for political action. Why don't you read William Morris or George Orwell? Get hold of something by Colin Ward, read E.P Thompson 'The Making of the English Working Class'. There are more sensible ways to oppose religious fundamentalism than the EDL, ways that, frankly, won't appear to put you in the same company as some pretty small minded people, racists and fascists.

What we have is a large section of the working classes who have been pushed to the bottom of the pile, no political voice, for many no jobs, little hope for the future.

The last government tried to control how they think and act and watched their every move via cctv.

At the same time they watched the cowards in parliament allowing the Islamists the freedom to march in our streets threatening to behead people,blowing up tubes and buses. Whole towns like Tower Hamlets being more or less taken over.

The means of the take over being build a mosque and then drive out the people in the vicinity, like here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilKIeag1HUc

This is our mums and dads, grandparents being driven out of their homes.

They insult our service men and women, many or most solders belong to this same working class, good enough to fight and die but not good enough to have a voice in the society they fight and die for.
Not only that but they send them to die and they have to buy their own boots to die in.
Ex service men are thrown to the wolves once their usefulness is over and many roam the streets of London, sleeping rough.

At the same time they give government money to radical Islamists to keep them quiet, allow them to run their sharia courts to appease them, doesn't matter that these courts are oppressive and people are forced to use them.

Every time they voiced their concerns they were told shut up you racist bigot, well they are reaping what they have sown, we won't shut up and we will fight them all the way.

I know you won't be convinced by my argument but I do try to explain as best I can.

Arthur.

gypsy
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May 24 2010 16:02

Arthur what would you say if I said the whole help for heroes stuff makes me sad. I am not a sharia boy, but not every soldier is a hero and some have committed massive attrocities in your countries name. I feel like any criticism of the British armed forces is not tolerated in this country is that wrong? I think so. The other day people were trying to make me donate money to that charity and I walked right past them.

Yes alot of soldiers are from working class backgrounds and most have been used as pawns in a war to defend allied interests in Afghanistan and Iraq but I can't give them uncritical support.

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Nyarlathotep
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May 24 2010 17:29
Arthur wrote:
So I don't see EDL involved in identity politics other than wanting to unite England and all it's people.

Just to clarify, this is precisely why none of us are interested in your dead-end political party. We want to abolish England and all other national borders. The only group we are interested in uniting is the totally global and international working-class.

-A proud Scotch-Irish/Pennsylvania German hillbilly whose ancestors suffered under Anglochauvinist oppression and exploitation

raw
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May 24 2010 23:42
Arthur wrote:
What we have is a large section of the working classes who have been pushed to the bottom of the pile, no political voice, for many no jobs, little hope for the future.

Yes and a large minority of that are asian muslims, do they fit into your idea of the working class?

Arthur wrote:
The last government tried to control how they think and act and watched their every move via cctv.

How very paranoid! Yes we're being filmed 300-400 times a day in London - most of it is useless to the state.

Arthur wrote:
At the same time they watched the cowards in parliament allowing the Islamists the freedom to march in our streets threatening to behead people,blowing up tubes and buses. Whole towns like Tower Hamlets being more or less taken over.

The means of the take over being build a mosque and then drive out the people in the vicinity, like here,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilKIeag1HUc

Hasn't it ever occurred to you that Islam4UK and its predecessors are honey traps? Or at the very least, an excellent means to find monitor islamists nutcases? And who is Tower Hamlets been taken over by? The Moslems or the thousands of city professional bankers that have colonized most the east end.

Arthur wrote:
This is our mums and dads, grandparents being driven out of their homes.

Yes and I suppose by millions of muslims, nothing like a bit of emotional terrorism to get people hooked into your way of thinking. There are still alot of mums and dads in Tower Hamlets, though the grandparents may have died due to lack of funds for heating, or waiting for an operation or lounging in some shit retirement home. The problem is that you see things based solely on a tiny context. Your view is dominated by muslim demographics and what you perceive of the results "our mums and dads, grandparents being driven out of their homes". There are also many factors you need to consider that have nothing to do with muslims or mosques.

Arthur wrote:
They insult our service men and women, many or most solders belong to this same working class, good enough to fight and die but not good enough to have a voice in the society they fight and die for.

Good. If you join an imperialist army - especially one that has already started fighting the war when you joined - then sorry you might get blown up or badly injured. The people I feel sorry for are the young lads who were fed this lie about fighting for "Queen & Country" by their nationalist parents, or even the EDL, then sign up and learn the true horrors of war. EDL do not expose the lie of the Afghanistan and Iraq war, they reinforce it in the name of patriotism and with patriotism, being an irrational idea, is above criticising.

Arthur wrote:
Not only that but they send them to die and they have to buy their own boots to die in.
Ex service men are thrown to the wolves once their usefulness is over and many roam the streets of London, sleeping rough.

Well do something about it then! What does that tell you about how the state treats soldiers that are apparently "our nations heroes", what does that teach you about patriotism to a cause and country, it leads to people being manipulated, being lied to. Do the EDL attempt to undermine this lie? No they reinforce it, they promote the army uncritically, they shout slogans like "No Surrender to the Taleban" i.e. keep fighting boys, we're right behind you albeit 8,000km behind you!

Arthur wrote:
At the same time they give government money to radical Islamists to keep them quiet, allow them to run their sharia courts to appease them, doesn't matter that these courts are oppressive and people are forced to use them.

Agree. So what are you doing about it? Marching through aylesbury, causing race riots in Dudley? To fight the imposition of Sharia in some communities, you need the support of those that are faced with its judgement - I do not see you doing that by bringing thousands of predominantly pissed up patriotic casuals to their communities. It is probably the WORST and most ineffectual thing to do. But this is obvious in EDL's own behaviour. They are not concerned about being effective, they are concerned by building up a patriotic, loyalists and nationalist movement.

Arthur wrote:
Every time they voiced their concerns they were told shut up you racist bigot, well they are reaping what they have sown, we won't shut up and we will fight them all the way.

Agree. You know by now that 99% of anarchists despise the Left and with that the UAF. The EDL is not in anyway, shape or form a progressive movement. It may have helped to get people out on the streets and voicing an opinion but it has also shaped it, defined its limitations, it is fundamentally based on reinforcing a status quo albeit one which has an increased public acknowledgement, to attack and discipline non-patriotic elements and enforce a narrow-minded view of English Culture.

These are things that we no doubt will disagree with and I doubt many in the EDL will not give two fucks about it. But you Arthur need to be aware that you could inadvertently been supporting something that you will fundamentally disagree with. The choice is to either be an apologist for the EDL or critical of them. To me, you seem to be the former even though you know deep down that the EDL is NOT reflective of your opinion.

Yorkie Bar
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May 25 2010 00:22
Quote:
Hasn't it ever occurred to you that Islam4UK and its predecessors are honey traps?

I don't think you mean honey traps, surely you mean false flags? And no, I think that's very unlikely.

Quote:
Good. If you join an imperialist army - especially one that has already started fighting the war when you joined - then sorry you might get blown up or badly injured.

Is this really what you meant? Because I definitely take issue with this sort of "oh they joined the army, it's their own fault they get shot at and killed, what did they expect" argument. Workers choose to join the army in the same way they choose to go to work.

I mean obviously the "support our troops, they're getting killed for our country" argument is equally wrong - no question there. But the blame for imperialist war doesn't fall on individual squaddies; though its consequences certainly do.

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Joseph Kay
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May 25 2010 00:29
BigLittleJ wrote:
I don't think you mean honey traps, surely you mean false flags? And no, I think that's very unlikely.

no i think he means honey traps (it sometimes means a general entrapment operation, not just a sexual one). around the time of the whole Abu Hamza thing it was pretty common knowledge MI5 let islamists reside in London so as to keep tabs on them (and more importantly those who came to listen to them). i'd be shocked if they weren't doing such things, obvious way to shortlist potential suspects. a false flag would be actually doing a terrorism and blaming it on islamists.