Brazil's Elections and current political situation

46 posts / 0 new
Last post
Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
Offline
Joined: 7-08-06
Oct 30 2018 03:21

Meerov, are you even aware of what is happening in Brazil? Otherwise you would not be making idiotic comments like that.

Craftwork's picture
Craftwork
Offline
Joined: 26-12-15
Oct 30 2018 13:43

In what sense is Bolsonaro a "fascist"?

Bolsonaro is not a fascist, he is a democrat, a product of this disgusting thing called democracy and the victor of free and fair elections.

He is certainly a right-populist, misogynist, homophobic, and all-round reactionary with authoritarian tendencies, but he's also pro-free market and anti-gun control, whereas fascism is about total control of society by the state.

What does applying "fascist" to any right-wing politician you dislike achieve? It turns "fascist" into trivial insult, and instead serves to defend the honour of democracy by treating the result as illegitimate.

Mike Harman
Offline
Joined: 7-02-06
Oct 30 2018 14:06
craftwork wrote:
but he's also pro-free market and anti-gun control, whereas fascism is about total control of society by the state.

lol. When your description of fascism is so restrictive it excludes Germany under the Nazis you should take a deep breath and get a bit less outraged about people using a broader one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany#Privatization_and_business_ties

Wikipedia wrote:
The Great Depression had spurred increased state ownership in most Western capitalist countries. This also took place in Germany during the last years of the Weimar Republic. But after the Nazis took power, industries were privatized en masse. Several banks, shipyards, railway lines, shipping lines, welfare organizations, and more were privatized.[40] The Nazi government took the stance that enterprises should be in private hands wherever possible. [41] State ownership was to be avoided unless it was absolutely necessary for rearmament or the war effort, and even in those cases “the Reich often insisted on the inclusion in the contract of an option clause according to which the private firm operating the plant was entitled to purchase it.”

..

The rhetoric of the Nazi regime stated that German private companies would be protected and privileged as long as they supported the economic goals of the government - mainly by participating in government contracts for military production - but that they could face severe penalties if they went against the national interest. However, such threats were rarely carried out in practice, and "companies normally could refuse to engage in an investment project designed by the state without any consequences."[66] Private firms refused government contracts and directions on many occasions. In 1937, de Wendel, a coal mining enterprise, refused to build a hydrogenation plant. In 1939, IG Farben denied a government request to increase its production of rayon and refused to invest in a synthetic rubber factory despite this being an important project for the regime. Froriep GmbH, a company producing machines for the armaments industry, successfully demanded cheap credit from the Nazi government under a threat of cutting back investment if its demand was not met.[67] The regime generally used monetary incentives, such as guaranteed profits, to persuade businesses to support its goals, and freedom of contract was generally respected even in projects important for the war

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 30 2018 15:08
Craftwork wrote:
In what sense is Bolsonaro a "fascist"?

Bolsonaro is not a fascist, he is a democrat, a product of this disgusting thing called democracy and the victor of free and fair elections.

He is certainly a right-populist, misogynist, homophobic, and all-round reactionary with authoritarian tendencies, but he's also pro-free market and anti-gun control, whereas fascism is about total control of society by the state.

What does applying "fascist" to any right-wing politician you dislike achieve? It turns "fascist" into trivial insult, and instead serves to defend the honour of democracy by treating the result as illegitimate.

I am not sure that fascism necessarily means state control over society. For example, in Hitler's Germany, despite widespread nationalization, there were private enterprises, large and small, and the leadership of the SS consisted of supporters of market economy and liberalism. For example, one of the SS intellectuals and their leaders Otto Ohlendorf was a supporter of the free market and criticized the forced monopoly in the politics of the Reich.

The fascist Franco regime used, like the anti-fascist Spanish Republic, broad state control over the economy, but Franco from a certain moment began the process of economic liberalization and privatization.

Bolsonaro is a "fascist" If we call "fascism" the system of domination of large state and private monopolies, which is based on the ideas of nationalism and xenophobia, terrorist methods, dictatorship, and attempts to mass mobilization of the population through nationalist propaganda. If so then Bolsonaro is under the definition of fascism. He speaks of the need to eliminate parliamentary democracy, if it interferes with him, he glorifies military dictatorship and terror against dissenters.

But I agree with you to some extent. The line between fascism and democracy, or between fascism and anti-fascism, is much thinner than many leftists try to imagine.

Actually millions of Brazilians, voting for the opponent of democracy, or simply refusing to come to the polls (30 million), showed that they are not interested in protecting democracy and in anti-fascism.

admin - we've unpublished several off-topic posts from meerov on this thread (and some of the responses to them), if we have to keep doing this it'll be a temp ban

Reddebrek's picture
Reddebrek
Offline
Joined: 4-01-12
Oct 30 2018 18:08
Craftwork wrote:
In what sense is Bolsonaro a "fascist"?

Bolsonaro is not a fascist, he is a democrat, a product of this disgusting thing called democracy and the victor of free and fair elections.

He is certainly a right-populist, misogynist, homophobic, and all-round reactionary with authoritarian tendencies, but he's also pro-free market and anti-gun control, whereas fascism is about total control of society by the state.

What does applying "fascist" to any right-wing politician you dislike achieve? It turns "fascist" into trivial insult, and instead serves to defend the honour of democracy by treating the result as illegitimate.

Huh? This is just he laziest right wing myths trotted out to paint the "cold dead hands" USA as the bastion of liberty. Never thought I'd see it on this forum.

Both Hitler and Mussolini were leaders of elected parties. Indeed is kinda crucial to how both came to power. Hitler's state terror began in January 1933 after the Conservatives offered him a coalition government which he used to gain control of state interior ministries and police forces which he immediately used to attack opponents, before making a pact with every other political party apart from the SPD and KPD to gain sweeping powers.

Mussolini was offered the government post by the King who had the power thanks to Italy's constitution. And just like Hitler he initially ruled as part of a coalition of right wing parties in the Italian Parliament. He then consolidated his power until 1925 when the Fascists were strong enough that they didn't really need the parliament and the other parties anymore.

The Nazi party passed the 1938 German Weapons Act, apart from the Jewish population who were already being repressed by that time it loosened restrictions on a German citizens right to own a gun.

And members of the party and state employee's no longer had any restrictions on their gun ownership at all.

And regarding free market, the Nazi's privatised so much state assets they inherited from the previous administration that they're the reason the word came into popular usage in the English language.

https://libcom.org/history/against-mainstream-nazi-privatization-1930s-germany

Quote:
Nationalization was particularly important in the early 1930s in Germany. The state took over a large industrial concern, large commercial banks, and other minor firms. In the mid-1930s, the Nazi regime transferred public ownership to the private sector. In doing so, they went against the mainstream trends in western capitalistic countries, none of which systematically reprivatized firms during the 1930s. Privatization was used as a political tool to enhance support for the government and for the Nazi Party. In addition, growing financial restrictions because of the cost of the rearmament programme provided additional motivations for privatization.

So under your definition of Fascism, not only do the Nazi's not qualify but the Weimar Republic was more fascistic than the Third Reich.

In addition I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find a Fascist government from the 20s and 30s that didn't have a very pro business relationship, Mussolini didn't take any action to curb Italian capital, same with Franco whose government let the Co-op Mondragon grow into an international corporation.

You may wish to read Fascism and Big Business by Daniel Guerin since its exclusively about the economies of Fascist regimes and not the propaganda about them https://libcom.org/library/daniel-gu-rin-fascism-big-business

Quote:
When fascism takes power, overflowing with gratitude for big business which financed it, its words and its deeds exhale the purest sort of laisser-faire economic doctrine. It announces its intention of favoring and protecting in every possible way private property and individual initiative. It rejects with horror the idea that the state might meddle in production. But the fascist state stands aside only so long as Messieurs Capitalists request it not to interfere in their private affairs. It imposes on them the lightest possible taxes, the most tenuous sort of control. But it is always ready to come running whenever these gentlemen cannot pull through by themselves. In any such crisis, it is immediately at their service, "socializing" their losses, refloating their enterprises, and keeping them alive with its orders.

I used to be really annoyed when people called Pinochet's dictatorship Fascist because of its commitment to neo-liberal economics and marginalisation of the classical fascists in his coalition like the Fatherland and Liberty group. But then I read about both the economies in Italy, Spain and Germany under fascist rule actually operated and just how involved Pinochet's government was in supporting the market economy, complete with massive bailouts and credit schemes.

For Bolsanaro, he's openly neoliberal in economics, but he also openly gushes about the old Dictatorship period, which also much like all of the above while officially quite laissez-faire gave capital in Brazil as much support as it could.

spartakus25's picture
spartakus25
Offline
Joined: 14-05-18
Oct 30 2018 21:19

Bolsonaro IS a fascist. Fascism is all about counteract the inner ''a-social'' nature of capitalism by means of fictitious community as a mass movement identified with the nation-state. the commoditized socialization leads a weakening in the social bonds which brings about the emptying of the individuals. the capitalism crisis undermine further the atomization of individuals that fuels the demand for a ''true community' founded upon a neurotic nationalism. that's the core concept of fascism that pass through by different political archetype from statist corporatism to the neoliberal corporatism.

Brasil is in a deep crisis that threats the social unity. Fascism is a brutal political way of put together the fundamental elements of capitalism reproduction in unity. capitalism is unity in separation. When separation tends to exacerbate, the authoritarianism comes to claim the unity upon the separation. In the particular case of Brasil the only way to reach this unity, and maintain the capital social reproduction, is by the neoliberal program which means savage privatizations and further exploitation of natural resources. Ironically that will creates a lot exclusion -exclusion of blacks, indigenous people, poor etc-, which will further the separation, but the ''social unity'' will confine in the withe upper-middle class situated in the industrial south and south east. It’s a very restrictive nationalism. The social reproduction of capital in Brazil needs to ‘‘expurgate’’ the ''superfluous'' people that not will be more useful to the capital accumulation, and this will be reached by mass incarceration and bloodbath.

meerov21
Offline
Joined: 14-08-13
Oct 31 2018 21:31

Here's a good text about Brazil, though I disagree with the last paragraph.
https://www.paperrevolution.org/the-proletariat-of-brazil-was-defeated-by-democracy-not-dictatorship/?fbclid=IwAR0QQISYFRHFJVHcgzYLCsxm9fvAjA4085QwsjG074pxnGGKmkaXqHaRcUY

Lucky Black Cat's picture
Lucky Black Cat
Offline
Joined: 11-02-18
Nov 1 2018 01:12

I agree that this Bolsonaro piece of shit is a fascist. But an interesting question is raised. If nationalism is the essence of fascism, at what point does nationalism become fascism?

Most people are nationalists, though it gets called patriotism, and from an extremely young age we are fed a steady-diet of seemingly "benign" nationalism, like standing for the national anthem everyday in school, big celebrations with fireworks for Independence Day or whatever equivalent national-celebration day a country might have, being taught to take pride in your country, and so on. Of course none of this is benign, and it's the foundation on which bigotry is built.

At what point is the line crossed from nationalism to fascism?

R Totale's picture
R Totale
Offline
Joined: 15-02-18
Nov 7 2018 13:54

Not read enough of it to have a super-clear idea of their perspective and how far I'd endorse it, but this site has a lot of Brazilian coverage: https://newmilitant.com

wojtek
Offline
Joined: 8-01-11
Nov 16 2018 01:27

Podcast:
https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/battleground-brazil-jair-bolsonaro-the-military-dictatorship-fascism

Cooked's picture
Cooked
Offline
Joined: 6-04-10
Nov 16 2018 15:11
Lucky Black Cat wrote:
Most people are nationalists, though it gets called patriotism, and from an extremely young age we are fed a steady-diet of seemingly "benign" nationalism, like standing for the national anthem everyday in school, big celebrations with fireworks for Independence Day or whatever equivalent national-celebration day a country might have, being taught to take pride in your country, and so on.

Most of the bolded are unique to USA no? Nationalism is obviously a feature of nation states but it tends to be a lot more subtle. USA is extreme.

There's a fair bit in the UK masquerading as ww2 related stuff. I imagine, could be wrong, that it wouldn't work half as well if was straight up nationalism without the ww2 pretext.

Lucky Black Cat's picture
Lucky Black Cat
Offline
Joined: 11-02-18
Nov 19 2018 08:48

It would be interesting to hear about how nationalism/patriotism is inculcated into people in the UK (other than WW2 stuff).

Reddebrek's picture
Reddebrek
Offline
Joined: 4-01-12
Dec 8 2018 02:20

A video about the dictatorship period and its impact on modern Brazil.

Bolsonaro and Brazil's Struggle for Truth and Memory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrUXs-5Ins4

spartakus25's picture
spartakus25
Offline
Joined: 14-05-18
Dec 13 2018 03:39

News from Brazil..a political member from bolsonaro family was target by an investigation that found solid evidences of money laundering involving him and his car driver. Some analysts suggests that the move against Bolsonaro family is a way to remove Bolsonaro from power and replace them for a high ranked office military that have the capacity and political strength to organize the government in order to implement complex and problematic reforms like the neoliberal restructuring of pension system. Bolsonaro is too immature and unstable for this task, and could severely damage the political viability of the neoliberal agenda, and his party is even worse with a lot internal conflicts lead by egocentric and bigotry politicians.

Reddebrek's picture
Reddebrek
Offline
Joined: 4-01-12
Dec 13 2018 04:11
spartakus25 wrote:
News from Brazil..a political member from bolsonaro family was target by an investigation that found solid evidences of money laundering involving him and his car driver. Some analysts suggests that the move against Bolsonaro family is a way to remove Bolsonaro from power and replace them for a high ranked office military that have the capacity and political strength to organize the government in order to implement complex and problematic reforms like the neoliberal restructuring of pension system. Bolsonaro is too immature and unstable for this task, and could severely damage the political viability of the neoliberal agenda, and his party is even worse with a lot internal conflicts lead by egocentric and bigotry politicians.

That's interesting, I heard something similar about Trump, though mainly from his diehards worried that some of the people around him were trying to manoeuvre his populist platform out of the way for more of the same "deep state globalism". Of course it looks like Trump is perfectly on board with that so most of the fallout from his administration were members with different outspoken priorities.

I guess we'll see how fragile this coalition of the right is.