CNT proposes reorganization of IWA

Submitted by Juan Conatz on April 5, 2016

The CNT just put out a statement saying they left the IWA. Most of the issues they say they have probably are familiar to those who have watched threads here, but still caught me off-guard.

http://cnt.es/en/news/cnt-re-foundation-iwa-cnt-es-xi-congress-agreements-internacionalism

Edited thread title to be more accurate

akai

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on October 5, 2016

Yes, we don't work with fascists or political parties. That's what defines us as sectarians.

l don't think you should talk on behalf of anarchists, unless they are confused ones.

syndicalist

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on October 5, 2016

Ragnar.... I can only say this, all organizations go through periods of internal problems. Perhaps this is the case for the CNT-AIT. But I can not believe that we are going to have a discussion about whether or not the CNT-AIT was, is or should be anarchostndicalist. What has it been since 1910?

As for finding the balance between anarchism and syndicalism, if I had a simple answer I would be a genius, I do not. But, at the same time, I do not feel it's "one or the other". That the balance between shop floor organizing and membership education should go hand in hand.

Respectfully, I can't speak about the IWB campaigns, as I am not very well informed on them or really about the IWB (at this point in time).

From how you write about anarchism, it seems like maybe you're not an anarchosyndicalist, hard to tell (and yes, I understand english is a second language,so if I'm wrong, apologies).

klas batalo

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on October 6, 2016

Syndicalism without anarchism is “pragmatic” and visionless; anarchism without syndicalism is ideology and stupidity.

Bomarzo

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Bomarzo on October 10, 2016

No se Ingles, pero lo que plantea la SP de la CNTE es toda una conferencia de escisión de la AIT y no una Conferencia de Refundacion como quieren llamarlo. La CNTE rompe el pacto federativo que existe en la CNT y interpreta a su manera particular las distintas Normativas Orgánicas, adeuda desde hace tres años que se sepa los pagos a la AIT, vamos que lo que se intenta es ahogar o asfixiar la AIT y poner una internacional mas a fin a los intereses de CNTE, FAU y USI. Aviso a navegantes, IWW quieta donde estas no queremos ver de nuevo a la AIT camino de America, ya te dejas invitar demasiadas veces por la CNT...
saludo y Viva la AIT

Horke Lavento

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Horke Lavento on October 26, 2016

I'm quite sad to see the state of IWA as it was so important organisation to exist in late 1980's when I had found class struggle anarchism and realised that anarchosyndicalist and revolutionary syndicalists (is there really a difference?) have true working though tiny international organisation.

We founded an anarchosyndicalist propaganda group back in 1987 in Finland - it grew to have over 300 members, but was turned to general anarchist federation as majority of new members weren t so keen on practical work among organising workers at the place of work. So it changed and died. I remember how solidarity towards comrades of cnt-ait dominating international debate in IWA.

I still understand the point made by those involving in actual unionising of workers. International work should have main emphasis of solidarity, education and internationalisation of that everyday class struggle. The revolutionary element of thiis work comes throuh the way workers organise themselves in anarchosyndicalist way - so how is it "mainstream unionwork to organise protection and organisation for people of our class. Propaganda-groups tend to be orhodox and anchist oriented in a way they are not working towards anarchosyndicalist mass-organisation, but merely anarchist controlled litttle ideological unions.

Revolutinary unionism must be modernised to become valid alternative for our class. Best way to learn new ways is throuh struggle - so I 'tend to understand the need for international that works with the actual syndicalist field. IWA has become authoritarian sect in a way. Sections split and the work of international should be help the spliting organisation find commong ground - not to take side with another (usulally the one that has no relevance, but is ideological sound) There should not be decicions to intervene union autonomy. Why is SAC syndikalister still considered so bad in these groups. They do real work. They will grow and be more radical in future as their youthorganisation or should I say yputh organisation near them SUF is quite strong and very sound organisation. In skandinavia we live in different reality that most of other european comrades - and bearing that in mind SAC is sound and revolutionary enough.

Please stop escalating this argument .- it is making damage to ourselves. And for fuck sake stop seeing "reformism" there and "plapla" here. If the international is to split - it will split. The question is how to react to it - by boycotting and hostilitiezs or by working side by side trying to keep comradely debate alive and so make room for future coming together again.

Working class don't need sect who thinks thhey have answers- it needs only self-organising and taste of self-management and revolutionary moment is there...

akai

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on October 27, 2016

The history of the failed Finnish organization is actually an interesting point to look at. As we see, they joined the lWA in the 80s and was short-lived because actually, they didn't know what to do, were more of an anarchist group with no real interest in workplace activity and unionism. (Later on the Solidaarissus group, which went to lWW infamously concentrated on making Food not Bombs and some animal liberation actions.) So the Finnish org never got off the ground and disappeared leaving no real legacy. However, it is claimed that at one point they had 300 people - sort of the level that one of the bigger former lWA organizations just passed in the last years, after more than 35 years of existance. This shows a number of interesting things. The first is that having even 300 people does not make an organization either a union or a stable organization. This point confronts the proposals of the Troika about membership requirements since a 300 person propaganda group which does punk concerts and has no plan to go into workplace activity has preference over a group of 50 which has certain relevant activity or is trying. Right now this is again a situation as some anarchist organizations dabble in workers' protest. On the other hand, proposals about other criteria related to workers' activity are on the agenda in the supposedly "sect" faction.

One can wonder about why it is these people joined, or why they were accepted as affiliates. lt seems that it happens that some join and do not seriously follow through. lt could then be argued that organizations should have some track record before joining. On the other hand, one can question if it made any difference and if keeping them out is really preferable to having them in as comrades. After all, did those people cause any damage in the lWA by being in it even though it was obviously just a whim that didn't work out?

l don't really think so. Of course one can look at it as an example of a "political sect" that never turned into a workers' organization, but it doesn't seem like anybody is bothered by such groups, as long as they point the fingers at others for being "sects".

The logic here is pretty flawless and seems to be serial on this forum. Among the more logical points in the above post is about the former domination of the CNTE in the lWA in a thread that often justifies their moral right to dominate by virtue of size. The consistency here is amazing.

Finally, the more l read here and elsewhere, the more people sound ridiculous to me, on the one hand talking day and night about what the "class" needs and on the other, taking pains to pretend not to be yet another person from some political background sitting home on the class and prescribing what workers need or don't need. This is really pretentious and getting nauseating. So many people on the internet who know what people need, what to be done and how, yet so few functioning horizontal / radical projects actually propelled by working people from beyond the reach of the political vanguards.

syndicalist

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on October 27, 2016

We founded an anarchosyndicalist propaganda group back in 1987 in Finland - it grew to have over 300 members, but was turned to general anarchist federation as majority of new members weren t so keen on practical work among organising workers at the place of work. So it changed and died. I remember how solidarity towards comrades of cnt-ait dominating international debate in IWA.

I never realized the Finnsh SAL had up to 300 people. The political drift doesn't surprise me.

Although I have been a supporter of the CNT-AIT since its underground days, their domination of policy has, at times, been a problem. Though I get some of where they were coming from,I have never thought the CNT-AIT ever really made an effort to understand others IWA Sections (except maybe for France). Sometimes the respect shown to larger organizations with long and generally honorable history can be mistaken to aquiance of dominance and abused in self-serving ways. And it's not just limited to the IWA.

akai

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on October 28, 2016

You can have 300 members too if you decided to make some loose informal movement that people use as a hang out and the does "cool stuff". And don't actually keep a strict list of dues payers. Or ask them to pay only one buck a years' dues.

Hope you catch the humor here.

syndicalist

7 years 5 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on October 28, 2016

^^^^. I fully get it.

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 19, 2016

'The crisis in the IWA from the perspective of the CNT' - article in Spanish in two parts by a CNT member in Valladolid. The first part is more of a history of the CNT since the 70s. The second part deals with the IWA. I'm not sure it's the most objective account tbh - so posted for information and not as an endorsement.

La crisis de la AIT desde la perspectiva de la CNT (part 1)

La crisis de la AIT desde la perspectiva de la CNT (part 2)

syndicalist

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on November 19, 2016

^^^^^. It's pro split stuff. Not even historically accurate

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 19, 2016

Not even historically accurate

I agree with this. It isn't a reliable account.

syndicalist

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on November 19, 2016

Mark.

Not even historically accurate

I agree with this. It isn't a reliable account.

So why stir the pot and put it up?

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 19, 2016

It's out there in Spanish and it's a version of events from the majority side in the CNT. I thought it had some interest, at least if read critically.

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 20, 2016

A basic idea of anarchosyndicalism is that the views of organizations are presented by those organizations through official statements reflecting positions that have been discussed and voted on. lf some strange mariginal folks, not bearing any mandate decide to publish some zine and claim they are printing the official views of the organization, this is pretty bad, but even worse are the folks who can't tell the difference between the views of an individual or small collective and that of a larger, more diverse organization.

That said, leave it to Mark to link to this "interesting" piece. lt is a perfect example of the problems we are facing. The authors publish a map which does not correspond to reality and to boot, they apparently do not know where our French Section is or who they are. For some reason, we are singled out in red on their bizarre map, but again, doesn't correspond to us. l guess they did not bother to do any research.

The Valladolid clique (a city behind various purge attempts and a General Secretary who made free use of the CNT credit card at the wee hours of the night) also has chosen to focus their attacks on Eastern Europeans, as often happens. (They have some sort of thing.) They decided to employ a strategy of depreciation, claiming we are several times fewer people than we are. (There's actually an answer to that on ZSP page.) This of course shows that they are having problems with concepts, so maybe first they need to keep repeating this nonsense until people think it's true. ln the meanwhile, these types of antics make them seem a bit ridiculous, on top of the legacy they left while CNT Secretariat (no financial reports, embezzlement and not paying the lWA the money paid by the membership for those purposes, without any mandate to do this).

lf this is what the "majority side" of the CNT has come to, that's really poor shit.

BTW, l was even more interested in the other article printed along with that one in "Prisma" which was written by Nikolai Azarov. l'd really question those guys' political sensibilities for running that.

jura

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jura on November 20, 2016

Azarov, as in the former PM of Ukraine who now lives in Russia?

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 20, 2016

Yes. That "organization" seems to publish very interesting things. Zero credibility.

1intento

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 1intento on November 22, 2016

Sorry, I can only broken english:

The map akai is speaking about:

Translation of the title:
Current division inside of the IWA-AIT
Situation in Europe

Translation of the symbols
GREEN: IWA sections favorable to the proposed refoundation of the IWA-AIT
RED: IWA sections against the proposed refoundation of the IWA-AIT
The another symbols are for Friend of the AIT' Groups (pro or contra the refoundation of the IWA-AIT), and the same for localities where there is no a whole group but only some person(s)

This artiicle contains another two maps about the modern history and split of the CNT:

https://twitter.com/Amor_y_Rabia/status/741701067474362368
Local CNT Groups taking part in the V Congress of the CNT in 1979

https://twitter.com/Amor_y_Rabia/status/741945022950584320
Local CNT groups that split from the CNT after the V Congress

And another map about the members of the IWA-AIT at the year of his foundation, in 1922

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 22, 2016

Article in La Vanguardia (Spanish msm) on the Bilbao conference:
Sindicatos anarquistas de 9 países se citan en Bizkaia para refundar la AIT

Report from barakaldodigital.com with CNT press statement:
Sindicatos anarquistas de nueve países se reúnen en Barakaldo para refundar la Internacional AIT

An article by akai which I don't think has been linked to here:
Why do we need a third international?

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 22, 2016

You know, Libcom becomes an extremely bad source of information when you share crap that is wrong. For example, the map is just WRONG and the people who did it LlTERALLY do not know who is in the lWA in the next country, France. As for our country, at least half the stuff is missing - it would have been enough to check our contacts on our page. Lots of missing and wrong cities. With such knowledge, they should maybe comment a lot less.

Also, misleading as fuck since the stars represent all different amounts of people. But of course there are more stars in Spain then elsewhere... what do you expect.

As far as those who are still pretending they are going to some solidarity Congress and not a refounding, it's pretty fucked up.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 22, 2016

I feel that CNT has not been able to explain its position, especially in languages other than Spanish, I understand that it has not been possible to understand, except when the position of this union has been explained by third parties in a malicious way.

For more information, these articles explain the history of the CNT and the AIT and the reason for its latest determinations, is in Spanish. Anyone who can translate would give more light to the debates.

http://noticiasayr.blogspot.com.es/2016/11/la-crisis-de-la-ait-desde-la.html

http://noticiasayr.blogspot.com.es/2016/11/la-crisis-de-la-ait-desde-la_2.html

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 22, 2016

^These are the same articles I linked to above - so see the criticisms already made.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 22, 2016

We should applaud the management of the entire AIT secretariat for its work to destroy the IWA and encourage the new union that will finance its stalls to be the solfed with ten times more affiliation than the next group and without power of decision.

The best thing the AIT could do right now is to think that it wants to be and what it wants to become if it does not suspend the current secretary that the only good job it has done is to promote the play of thrones within the AIT, Groups of eastern europe.

And a good job that all of us can do is to think about everything that is happening objectively without interference from third parties to solve this crisis of international anarcho-syndicalism.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 22, 2016

That two points are badly put does not mean that the bottom of the article is not wrong, just to mention that it is critical with the way CNT has acted to see that it is impartial and done from outside the CNT and the AIT.

Sorry it's not in English.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 22, 2016

It is funny that an article coming out of a historical anarchist group that knows closely the CNT intricacies, can not write about the perception that has since CNT.

Instead a person to thousands of miles from Spain if he knows what the CNT really thinks.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 22, 2016

An example of the moral appeal of those who dare to say that all others lie, these photos to show that the Anselmo Lorenzo Foundation has a good facilities for storing files.

Not as it was said that he has them thrown in an unhealthy place.

So lie after lie, from Spain we ask that we stop belittling, insulting and lying about

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 22, 2016

Another example of manipulation when doubting the objectivity of this anarchist group, let us see his curriculum.

Has dozens of publications behind it and great prestige.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amor_y_Rabia

Amor y Rabia is a magazine that was born as a spokesman for the Anarchist Love and Rage Group, which emerged in mid-1995 in Valladolid as heir to the Libertarian Awakening Group (formed in September 1991), which was integrated into the FIJL From April 1992) until its disappearance at the end of 1994. The first issue was published on 30 December 1995; In its first period, a total of 65 issues were published, the last of which was published in the spring / summer of 2003.1 Both in terms of their duration and their wide diffusion (the whole peninsula, as well as subscriptions in Europe2 and their increasing professionalization3 To be considered one of the anarchist reference publications of the 1990s. Pepe Rivas, founder of the Ajoblanco magazine, refers to it in his biography.4 At the beginning of 2013 he created the Blog "Amor y Rabia" magazine, 5 and at the beginning Of July, the first issue of the second stage was published, this time in a digital and free way.6

melenas

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on November 23, 2016

Is easy to make the mistake with cnt-ait france since there are 4 cnt in france and the one that stais in IWA doesn't have website.

Also there are mistakes about cnt Spain map, but even that helps to make an idea.

AAlso, as was explained, that magazine is not of CNT and the article only represent the opinion of the person that write it.

syndicalist

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on November 23, 2016

What "third parties" are u talking about?

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 23, 2016

Well, it should be very enlightening for SolFed to know that somebody thinks they are 10 times bigger than the next one. And l really wonder which one they think that could be.

l guess that union that also should be "wondering" is mine, about how for some years now, even before the split, it is the largest financial contributor, even though there were bigger unions like CNT. (Of course this is no remark against SolFed because as far as we know, they pay their dues properly, unlike some larger organizations that didn't.)

Now we see one of the bigger problems in the CNT in Spain which is how a small group of people in it spread misinformation and probably many others believe it. Not knowing who is in France, not knowing the size of the organizations compromising the lWA, they make declarations about it and want to decide. But how can people decide about things if they don't have basic knowledge? And obviously don't even read the own documentation of lWA. Of course the latter can be partially blamed on how things are run internally in some places because certainly in each organization there can be new people who don't know things, but rather there should be some basic things explained and encouragement to read things or people who are responsible in their local groups for following information and presenting it at least in short. ln any case, many of my comrades reported at different times visiting or even moving to places and finding a rather amazing lack of knowledge of things. Even on this forum we had folks from the CNT split faction claiming that when they joined CNT they though lWA had hundreds of thousands of members. Of course the federation doesn't say that and it is the responsibility of the member Sections to inform knew members both of what their organization is and the federation. But we see that some local unions don't really do it. l guess it's all part of the marketing of success.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

The third people are those who, before anyone knew the lines of the different French Cnts, had already been positioned by one of them. Talking to her without anyone's mandate to stay in the Ait.

Third parties are those who intrude into the organizational life of all sections of the Ait, expelling sections or insulting them.

Third parties are in short, who is little destroying the Ait with attitudes more proper to Stalin not a secretary of an anti-authoritarian Ait.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

It is illustrative that the maxim of akai to keep manipulating is that the militants of cnt are stupid. And someone directs them, when the Cnt years before reaching akai to power in the Ait and years after akai destroys the Ait the assemblies command in the Ait, as many assemblies as unions compose the CNT. Not only does every CNT affiliated worker decide on everything that happens to CNT, but he / she knows at all times what each union is working on. In Ait not only we do not know what happens, but we learn that his secretary is dedicated to making game of thrones in unions that do not like. First it was fau, then usi, then cnt French, cnt Spanish and they will follow the outside, the solfed. She is the destroyer of the ait, that is her legacy.

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 23, 2016

bizantino, you write nonsense (which was written many times before). the thing is, that while initially it could have an impact on people who didn't have the amount information they have now, in the current stage of the parallelist attempts hardly anyone can believe that nonsense.

I understand that you embrace the method of "more lies become truth" but you should realize that the time for this method is over and it didn't work out the way you wanted in the first place.

the good thing is that by writing such nonsense, the parallelists look dumb and dumber each time they write such delirious comments...

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

admin: name removed akai expels the people of the ait and then when they organize, he calls them paralelistas?

There is a Spanish saying that time puts everyone in their place, hopefully for the decent colleagues of the ait is not too late.

admin: don't post real names of posters without their consent

Lugius

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on November 23, 2016

For urgent attention of errant map-makers;

ASF, Australian section of IWA

Affiliates:

Brisbane

Sydney

Canberra

Melbourne

North West Tasmania

Perth

Telecommunications Workers Association (Perth)

Initiatives:

Townsville

Adelaide

Geelong

Singapore

Manila

Lugius

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on November 23, 2016

The CNT were not at the founding of the IWA. At least according to the Wkipedia article.

syndicalist

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on November 23, 2016

According to these two reports in the Spanish press, the aim of the conference is to "refound" the IWA. Not a simple "meet and greet" of interested global syndicalists.

http://barakaldodigital.blogspot.co.uk/2016/11/sindicatos-anarquistas-de-nueve-paises.html

http://www.lavanguardia.com/vida/20161122/412072805341/sindicatos-anarquistas-de-9-paises-se-citan-en-bizkaia-para-refundar-la-ait.html

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

Today two historical mentions that come to the case, one to clarify doubts and another of the beginnings of the AIT, facts that seem to be repeated:

It is at the beginning of this century when the first revolutionary and anarcho-syndicalist unions, such as the American IWW and the Argentine FORA, are formalized. In Europe, to name a few, the Italian ITU, the Swedish SAC and the industrial federations of Holland; Because the Spanish CNT was not founded until 1910.

In the Congress of The Hague (1872), the anarchists were expelled from the organization, that happened to be controlled by the Marxists until its dissolution in 1876.

Let us not be seduced by the beautiful words of those who act in a really dirty way.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

The italian seccion was USI and the congress was in the Haya.

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 23, 2016

bizantino, what do you intend with your posts? they have no logic and are pretty close to harrassment aimed at a person. it was proven numerous times that the things you claim are nonsense. and now, you appear here out of nowhere, say nothing new and start useless and mindless attacks. there is no need for that, all has been said already...

have some dignity.

syndicalist

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on November 23, 2016

On the CNT not being at the 1922 founding congress, this is from a respected, though periodically inaccurate pamphlet:

"The Spanish CNT was unable to send delegates due to the fierce class struggle being waged in their country under the dictatorship of Primo de Rivera. They did, however, join the following year. During the 1920s the IWA expanded. More unions and propaganda groups entered into dialogue with the IWA secretariat."

http://libcom.org/history/articles/international-workers-association

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

It is necessary to denounce the Troskist practices that are taking place within the AIT.

Supporting these practices, the AIT is going to become something that has nothing to do with what was born.

By the way, the DOTS are missing too.

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 23, 2016

bizantino

It is necessary to denounce the Troskist practices that are taking place within the AIT.

Supporting these practices, the AIT is going to become something that has nothing to do with what was born.

By the way, the DOTS are missing too.

Yeah, keep on rewriting your posts...

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

The Google translator is incorrigible XD

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 23, 2016

No, the CNT was not a founder of the lWA in 1922, just to clarify. USl was not at the Hague since it was founded some 40 years later.

lt's interesting that syndicalist got the clarification about who the "third party" was, messing with the internal affairs of the lWA - its general secretary, not the third parties invited to refound it. Truly surreal.

Syndicalist, of course the aim of the conference in Barakaldo (moved from Bilbao) is the "refoundation" of the lWA. People were informed about that from the lWA but they want to pretend it is not. Of course the other question is that some of the organizations have not decided on joining the parallel lWA and there is even one (possibly two) written down whose membership don't know they are going, because the leader decided.

Also, the secretary of the French section did clarify that they did not support this split and will be in Warsaw. They certainly were not happy with what has been said and have been commenting about it in Spain.

syndicalist

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on November 23, 2016

akai

....Syndicalist, of course the aim of the conference in Barakaldo (moved from Bilbao) is the "refoundation" of the lWA. People were informed about that from the lWA but they want to pretend it is not. ....

Yes, well, there seems to be plenty of folks in north america who want to pretend it's not what it is said it is.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

The CNT will speak with the sections that do not agree with the authoritarian drift that the AIT is taking, both those that are already inside and those that thought to be integrated in the AIT but do not do this drift (Rocinante)

And the CNT as a member of the AIT has every right to attend meetings.

That yes, it seems that the Head of the AIT has decided not to provide the address where the congress was held to the CNT without any member of the AIT knows.

That smells of Troskist manipulation.

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 23, 2016

1) what body gave the CNTE the right to attend the IWA Congress?
2) what morale is there to attend parallelist and iwa congress?

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

A) The CNT's own statutes and this last congress (CNT maximum decision organ) make it attend this congress of the AIT.

B) The CNT will have the right to explain firsthand all the lies about it are being poured and that is the meeting of bilbao, right?

And my question is, what organ has empowered the AIT secretary not to allow CNT attendance at his congress?

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 23, 2016

If the secretary of the AIT in the end gets the CNT not attend the congress of warsaw, it means hiding serious things that do not want to know.
If you have nothing to hide, let him normally attend that meeting.
If the secretary of the IWA is the one that says to speak on behalf of the CNT and does not let the CNT express itself, it is making dark plans.

And that is the responsibility of all the members of the AIT.

Horke Lavento

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Horke Lavento on November 24, 2016

Comrades, I' m sorry I have s bit of a language barrier to express myselsf. The size of SAL (Finland) was not relevant - as some people pointed out, many had joined because there were need for anti-authoritarian/anarchist organisation/alternative in Finland those days and since our organisation was the only one to join in - many came, but were not motivated to unionwork. We who had founded the federation didn't have a plan for such fast growth and we had so many projects that we forgot to educate inside of our movement. etc. The point was that we didn't know in Finland that we were in fact one of the bigger ones in AIT - we thought we are among the smallest ones as we believed the propaganda and information we got. We were told that CNT-AIT is in fact bigger than the "renovados"-split and so on... Well size isn't everything - but if we think the traditional role of revolutionary /anarchosyndicalist union - it should have a plans to became true mass-organisation. Not just union of hardcore anarchosyndicalists, but labour organisation that organise working masses... If we want to go to that direction, we must think how to keep up in modern capitalist environment etc. And we must be able to work together in some way with other syndicalistrevolutionary organisations, too. Thats my point. It seems that anyway AIT will get "rival" international body of those orgnising the "conference" and there is if I 'm informed correctly a split inside of CNT in spain again... What was my intention earlier? I just wanted to point out that if and when these things do happen - there should be a bit more tolerant way of communicating. AI should keep some relations to this new grouping and it's memberorganisations to be able to continue discussions and concrete solidaritywork etc and to have door open for re-union later. It's odd how difficult it is sometimes for anarchosyndicalists to work with unions very near of our principles and more easy to have concrete relations with authoritarian /traditional unions...
Please, do not cut relations with the organisations organising this new "international". And although it is not acceptable to demand practically for control of international to the hands of one conferation as cnt does - there might be some reasonable arguments why those unions are leaving. In this discussion there have been comrades to say, that "FAU should have been expelled some time ago for not carrying out AIT decisions" - for examble. International co-operation should not be so authoritarian in nature that it' has no room for union autonomy - of course if the FAU 's actions concretely have hurt the work of polish comrades - I would agree, but if the question is really of some FAU members having contacts with a bit fishy "rival" organisation in some trivial level - and that being not very comeradely way to act, but not an attack... I don't know so I can't say. I still think that there should have been more efforts to find common ground in all these arguments and splits during these years. AIT should 've been a body to get national organisatiosn back to negotions to not have to split - now it seems that there has been a hurry to decide the side to back up and usually AIT has taken the side of a smaller sect and turning it's back to real union organisations like cnt-france (vigliones) etc. But anyhow I hope the anarchosyndicalist international movement will continue to exist and that these new developments won't mean a new bitter devide in the movement...

axxs

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by axxs on November 24, 2016

A) The CNT's own statutes and this last congress (CNT maximum decision organ) make it attend this congress of the AIT.

CNTE is not a 'maximum decision organ' it is one federation of a confederation of federations making decisions together via anarchist process. It is acting however as owner of the confederation, and that if its position is not accepted by all it will just force that position.

Lugius

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on November 24, 2016

The CNT will speak with the sections that do not agree with the authoritarian drift that the AIT is taking, both those that are already inside and those that thought to be integrated in the AIT but do not do this drift (Rocinante)

And the CNT as a member of the AIT has every right to attend meetings.

That yes, it seems that the Head of the AIT has decided not to provide the address where the congress was held to the CNT without any member of the AIT knows.

That smells of Troskist manipulation.

The CNT has not paid its dues so it is no longer a member, just as CNT affiliates who do not pay dues to the CNT are disaffiliated and consequently no longer members.

The CNT proposed at the 2010 Congress a minimum membership requirement based on the arbitrary figure of 125 and it was rejected by the Congress.

The same proposal slightly modified (requiring 100 instead of 125) was put again at the 2013 Congress despite a decision having been already made. The subtext was reasonably clear;

keep voting til you make the decision we want

Trotskist manipulation?

The CNT then called for the recall of the IWA Secretariat on the vague charge of 'authoritarianism' without any specific mention of any specific beach of IWA Statutes or agreements. Of course this was rejected.

The idea that one person is responsible for the IWA's problems is not only patently absurd it suggests that everything in the IWA will be ok if we just get the right people in positions of power. Trotskist much? The problem is never individuals it is always structural.

And my question is, what organ has empowered the AIT secretary not to allow CNT attendance at his congress?

The Secretariat of the IWA is required to adhere to the decisions of the Congress and the statutes of the IWA.

Not paying dues is a clear breech of the statutes and agreements. Consequently, the CNT is no longer a member a decision it has made for itself.

Bizantino, by what right or mandate does the CNT, having left the IWA by refusing to pay dues, presume to refound the IWA? What organ empowers the CNT to make decisions for the IWA?

If the secretary of the AIT in the end gets the CNT not attend the congress of warsaw, it means hiding serious things that do not want to know.
If you have nothing to hide, let him normally attend that meeting.
If the secretary of the IWA is the one that says to speak on behalf of the CNT and does not let the CNT express itself, it is making dark plans.

And that is the responsibility of all the members of the AIT.

Double standards? The statement made by the CNT in April contained a number vaguely worded charges against the IWA Secretariat. One of them was that the IWA Secretariat was overly 'inquisatorial'. Applying bizantino's logic one might ask; what dark plans is the CNT hiding?

The FAU refused the IWA Secretariat admission to its Congress, so what dark plans were the FAU hiding?

These 'dark plans' having been going on since at least 2010. Autonomy means you are free to leave the federation. The CNT, the FAU. the USI have every right to leave but they have no right to presume they have the authority to 're-found' the IWA.

When you are admitted to the IWA you are bound by the decisions of IWA Congress. If a section wants complete autonomy they are free to leave at any time.

The FAU refused to abide by decisions of IWA Congress, this is just grounds for their disaffiliation. The FAU presumes to place itself above the IWA Congress and to decide what is best for the IWA. What's your definition of authoritarian?

If the CNT is serious about attending the IWA Congress as a member then it needs to pay its dues and abandon its 're-foundation' conference and re-affirm its commitment to abide by the Statutes of the IWA and agreements made at IWA Congress.

If these 'mere propaganda groups' are so bad, why did the CNT vote ion favour of admitting them knowing full well they would be voting?

It is easy to check who voted to admit all of the current sections of the IWA.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 24, 2016

I repeat the cnt is entitled to attend the congress to clarify what agreements I took in the congress of Zaragoza and that is the meeting of Bilbao, mandated by all unions of the cnt, attached cnt statutes to see how it works. If it is done to the fau (there is no figure of suspension in the statutes of the ait) normal that wants to organize internationally, the same thing will happen to the cnt, usi and FORA if they are marginalized.

http://www.cnt.es/documentos

The cnt has delegation and mandate to attend the congress, the Ait secretariat, which should ensure the good understanding and functioning of the Ait sections is boycotting the whole Ait, or reacting or destroying the Ait.

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 24, 2016

You know, people like this Bizantino are really awful and are the reason that nobody in our organization has any interest in such personalities. That said, being this personality is so intent on telling bullshit here, l will just explain the following: No, it is not true that the CNT has not arrived the address of the Congress. We already received confirmation from the Secretary of CNT. lt is true that it probably took a couple of days to answer the letter, due to a flood of mails before the Congress.

lt is also true that the same Secretary (of exteriores, the international Secretary) sent a document to CNT unions in September instructing the CNT unions NOT to have plenaries and to discuss and vote on the topics on the agenda of the lWA Congress. These topics, BTW, include alternative proposals to CNT's numbers proposal. The proposal is that Sections of the lWA exhibit worker/union activity.

According to this document, the Secretary claims that the CNT Congress said that the CNT cannot participate in the Warsaw Congress.

Sections of the lWA were informed of this some months ago. And of course, myself, l have no say about who enters the Congress or not, only the Sections do. There is such a thing at every Congress called Credentials Commission and they are chosen at the beginning of the Congress to check everything. l have never been on one and do will not be on it now either.

What do people think: should we discuss the document sent by that Secretary here? Because certainly every delegate to the lWA Congress will have it and will be able to discuss it at the lWA Congress. A slew of lies and l am supposed to keep these things "secret"?

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 24, 2016

bizantino, you are delirious. and make no sense. do you really think that people will accept the crazy attitude, that it is OK when an organization (or rather leaders)...:

- that instructs its membership NOT to prepare mandates for the IWA Congress, has any right to suddenly claim it will attend the congress? (I should say again, that this is purely about power games and leaders, as even now you hide the fact, what body gave mandates to the leaders to play these games; first they officially claim that CNT is not attending, at the same time preparing parallel split conference for "refoundation of tthe IWA", and then suddenly saying that CNT (leaders) will attend? I think that if this was not in the sphere of organizational life but of life in general, psychiatrists would be on their way...)

- that spreads bullshit towards the IWA and harrasses secretariat of the IWA in a rather brutal way for many months (and organizes a split congress completely outside the statutes) has any right to simply come to the IWA congress. is this normal to you? no shame there? what kind of persons those power players and leaders have to be to demand such thing in all sanity.

Sections know about all you said, there is nothing new (and if there is, why hide it btw only for the IWA congress... makes no sense). Sections made sane decisions several times refusing the games of power players. Sections chose which congress they see as the legitimate one. It is very clear to sections.

Btw, it is quite telling that CNT leaders think that they will change anything by coming to the congress where delegates have their mandates and try to manipulate them into changing those mandates or joining the parallelist project (that as people can see has ended up in a much worse way that the power players expected). Trockism indeed...

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 24, 2016

A secretary of the AIT can not interfere in the decision-making processes of a section, that in Spain was lived in the eighties with Troskist parties to undermine the CNT and try to take it, then failed and failed now.

Decisions on the ITA were taken at a maximum decision-making body at the CNT, in which 97% of the membership participated in this case, there were unsuccessful attempts to boycott this congress, but most of the CNT is about to re-enter This organization in a revolutionary axis in Spain.

There have been several attempts to maintain the immobile line of the 70.80 and 90 years by people who want to keep their stalls, also in an unsuccessful attempt, do not reach three hundred people who maintain that line.

They are problematic people who do not get along well or between them, we see how it happened with France that instead of calming animos and to try that this problem ends the secretary of the AIT is dedicated to make gasoline to the match (that does not arrive nor to fire) .

As happened with France, instead of studying what happened and mediated to join the different positions the secretary of the AIT has chosen the "Good", demonstrating that it wants to mount a snack bar where to continue to mangoneando at will.

In the face of these maneuvers, it is normal for any moderately formed organization to hesitate to be in the AIT, hence the Bilbao meeting where the different options that these unions will have to be exposed to continue to carry out international solidarity.

We return to see how instead of talking and trying to approach postures, it is only made to manipulate and lie about everything CNT says.

If there is some culprit of this situation is the current secretary of the AIT, if you think that the CNT is a submissive group that is going to fold a small elite with a small power try to destroy the AIT does not know that it is the CNT.

We live in times when the growth of the extreme right in Europe and in the world needs a strong AIT to fight it, we find that there are people inside that is dedicated to debiliatarla.

The other sections should think for themselves and draw their own conclusions so that this authoritarian drift ends at once.

I repeat again to the CNT is not allowed to speak and expand their positions and the secretary of the AIT has no mandate of nadia to prevent the CNT from expressing itself.

Instead of taking advantage of the experience and achievements that the CNT is getting for the rest of the sections to grow and be strong, it wants to return to the 90s, where the CNT suffered a hard road in the desert being misunderstood and isolated by the workers . Those positions are those defended by those four madmen who have been thrown out of the CNT and four other crazy people who do not want to leave because they know they will disappear.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 24, 2016

In three or four years, you tell me what happened.

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 24, 2016

ok, daddy

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 24, 2016

We don't need to wait 3 or 4 years to clarify the misinformation here.

Within France there were fights and a way to deal with the conflict was adopted by the 2011 Plenary. The proposal of how to deal with it was proposed by SolFed and adopted except for one Section which abstained in the matter. There was no mandate to try to resolve anybody's internal issues and it was decided not to try to do this as it was not wanted by the people there. Whether or not this was the best way, can be discussed. But it was a decision of all the lWA, including the CNT actually.

As for more stuff, yes, l agree this guy is flipping but there is something he says might be true: it might be that there was no decision of the CNT Congress not to go to the lWA Congress. But logically, we have an interesting question. The lnternational Secretary of the CNT of course told the unions of CNT NOT to prepare for and organize Plenaries to vote on the lWA proposals and he justified this by saying the Congress decided not to go. So, we have a number of options:

Bizantino is telling the truth, which means that the CNT Congress had no decision not to go. This however means that the lS did not tell the truth and would look like he is trying to obstruct participation in the Congress. Which is majorly bad.

Or, maybe the lS was telling the truth, and Bizantino not. But if so, that means the CNT Congress decided not to come to the Congress, which means that of course they are breaking their own Congress decisions by coming.

The first option is supported by other members of CNT who complained to lWA that the secretaries of CNT are making decisions and misinforming people. They decided to ignore the instructions which they see as against the Congress decisions, but when the CNT folks heard that the support lWA Congress, they started an investigation about stuff. Then decided they would come.

The second option might be, but then it leaves a big question as to the legitimacy of their trip to our Congress.

ln any case, despite the hysterics displayed here, the Secretary of the lWA does not decide who comes and goes. To be clear, there has been, for six months already, a point on the agenda to ask the CNT delegation to leave, should the CNT be disaffiliated by the Congress. lf it is accepted, they will be asked to leave (and l would suggest it), it the proposal is rejected, they can stay. That simple.

Personally, we voted for the "ask to leave" option because we want to talk about the productive proposals on the agenda and not waste time "discussing" with people who "discuss" like we see here.

The CNT Proposals were mostly discussed before or at points cover existing agreements or proposals. At the last Congress, the CNT Proposals (minimum membership and proportional voting) were rejected. Another possibility was put for consideration, although, because there was not enough time to make any counter-proposals, the counter proposals to CNT come at this Congress. We consider that we spent time discussing the merits of the CNT Proposals and now it is time to discuss other ones. The CNT Proposals were not popular and mostly were based on kicking people out and taking away peoples' votes. The new proposals are meant to be more widely acceptable and are based on making efforts to improving and increasing workplace organizing. Other similar proposals come with it.

The awful thing is that CNT, FAU and USl did not take part in any of the projects from the last Congress and Plenaries to do things like promote syndical education, etc. lnstead of helping along with these to benefit everybody, a hostility campaign was launched, beginning in FAU where the delegates asked the CNT and USl to split with them and started a campaign in favor of leaving instead their Section. lnstead of helping to go forward together, there were only these campaigns and we see what they look like.

We suppose if these people wanted to find some compromise positions to achieve a better functioning international without kicking people out, then that would of happened. lnstead, they pushed conflict and never thought that anybody would say enough... because maybe they are used to thinking they are the biggest, therefore they are right.

militant-proletarian

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by militant-proletarian on November 24, 2016

akai

The awful thing is that CNT, FAU and USl did not take part in any of the projects from the last Congress and Plenaries to do things like promote syndical education, etc. lnstead of helping along with these to benefit everybody, a hostility campaign was launched, beginning in FAU where the delegates asked the CNT and USl to split with them and started a campaign in favor of leaving instead their Section. lnstead of helping to go forward together, there were only these campaigns and we see what they look like.

We suppose if these people wanted to find some compromise positions to achieve a better functioning international without kicking people out, then that would of happened. lnstead, they pushed conflict and never thought that anybody would say enough... because maybe they are used to thinking they are the biggest, therefore they are right.

Maybe comrades are totally fed up with your dirty game and discussions on surreal stuff like sections with no union activity trying to teach a lesson on syndicalism and of course "anarchism". Unfortunately CNT, USI and FAU are the sections that were maintaining for years that cadaver known as IWA.

axxs

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by axxs on November 24, 2016

A secretary of the AIT can not interfere in the decision-making processes of a section

The secretariat isn't. The CNT chose to leave by its actions, which it is free to do. Just as other sections are free to look at the process and decide what is anarchist process and what is not.

CNT's claim to a refounding of the IWA spits on internationalism and agreements at congresses. It appears that the CNT will only abide by decisions that it wants and if it doesn't get it, willl force its position via might is right.

Regardless of the Secretariat (who is only standing by the decisions of OUR congress and that is the problem of the CNT with the Secretariat), by what right does the CNT claim the right of refounding of the IWA? You haven't answered that. You, like the CNT, seem to just assume it.

Can you answer that? And stop telling us what is happening inside the CNT, this is about the CNT's involvement and commitment to internationalism and the agreements that it chose to be part of, where if it doesn't get its own way just claims ownership of the confederation and will just recreate it without those that disagree.

Salvoechea

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on November 24, 2016

In the end everything is about correlation of forces. If Bilbao gathering is a failure, then IWA will have a opportunity. If it is a success, and those unions are able to start something, then IWA will loose some more members (FORA, CNT-F... ). My view is that the main opinion inside CNT-E is to create something new, a new international network. However, as some unions prefer to stay in IWA, the 'official' position is to defend the idea of 'refoundation' (what I see as hypocrite). People is expectant. Some unions inside CNT-E may change their mind after the Conference.

Anyway, I find more interesting spaces like Thessaloniki Euromed Workers Economy, than all these pathetic petty civil wars of micro-unions (CNT-E included). If we're serious about our struggle we'll need to call for International Forums like that.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 24, 2016

If it is true that an international anarcho-syndicalist unit with a common demand table, a criteria and methodology worked for open trade union and social conflicts, is also made an international trade union model exportable to more countries, with serious international campaigns without Byzantine debates.

Repeating with an internationalist Eurocentric, inbred and short-sighted internationalist model promoted by CNT during the last decades is a mistake from my point of view.

I also share that outside our circles of influence are giving very intiresantes initiatives, quite more interesting than the ones we have recently generated, a whole debate about who we are, where we come from and where we are going.

That debate is taking place at the local and state level, the internationalist vision is lacking. Perhaps these problems are what we need to open our eyes and take seriously the international facet of the libertarian movement.

In a process of geopolitical change like the present one, we can not stand idly by talking about the sex of the angels, the space that we can occupy occupied by others and, as I said, the ultra-right is growing by force.

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 26, 2016

Salvoechea

Anyway, I find more interesting spaces like Thessaloniki Euromed Workers Economy, than all these pathetic petty civil wars of micro-unions (CNT-E included). If we're serious about our struggle we'll need to call for International Forums like that.

Here's a link for the Euromed meeting: http://euromedworkerseconomy.net

Edit: report in Spanish: http://alasbarricadas.org/noticias/node/37504

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 24, 2016

An example of the debates that open within the Spanish libertarian movement on trade unionism, as you can see are not just CNT positions is broader.

http://alasbarricadas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=61290

It is clear that getting into the internal affairs of the unions, continuous disqualification, permanent doubting of the delegates and decisions made by the unions, marginalizing the unions with more weight and the political commissars has led us to this point in the IWA.

This marks a before and after within the IWA, there is still room for an end point to be a point and a part. Or perhaps it is better to have an end point with an organization that neither wants nor expects the CNT.

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 25, 2016

For me it has not been the best secretariat precisely, as a political commissar is worth a lot, has ensured that 90% of the membership of the AIT is not sure of wanting to remain of the AIT.

He speaks of suspending the FAU, when in the statutes of the AIT there is no figure of suspension, it is his invention.

He has used the quota money and the AIT charge to establish contacts with groups that are of his idea of ​​what the AIT should be, marginalizing the rest, there were large unions in Nigeria and Asia that were not allowed into The AIT.

It is dedicated to making games of thrones with sections of the AIT, judging and monitoring the FAU (I do not know if the nationalist and historical hatred in Poland against the Germans has something to do) with the CNT is dedicated to doubting Of the mandates sent by his secretary and to have contacts with people of dubious morality in Spain. (If they were expelled by majority decision of the CNT a few years ago was for something, not precisely nonsense) and lies manipulates and deceives using his figure as secretary of the AIT.

Interprets the agreements of others in a malicious way. for example:
CNT agreements for the AIT

It wants to leave the unions without votes: It is not true, it seems to us from an authoritarian organization that the minority sends about the majority, we want the same weight or at least an approximate weight in the decision for the members of CNT and for the rest Of sections. That is to say if my union has a thousand affiliates and yours five hundred and the one of there is 200, that there is an approximation in the decisive power. In this example and with the proportional system of votes, a proposal would bring forward three unions of 200 against one of 800. It seeks something proportional neither for the big ones to dictate nor for the small ones to dictate.

It wants to expel from the AIT unions of less than 100 people: Lie, in CNT there is the figure of confederal nucleus, are groups of up to 15 people have no vote but if voice. The goal is not to waste time on absurd discussions and use all your time and means to become a union as soon as possible. We want the same for AIT.For groups of less than 100 people. To the great majority of the unions of CNT have been confederal nucleus some time.

We want to introduce a kind of "erasmus", that people from other unions travel to different countries to learn and take advantage of the positive things of each union and apply them in their country. And bring positive things from your country to the unions they go to.

The CNT wants to have the power of the AIT, having more votes: lie, we propose the proportional system of votes that we use because it is fairer than the current system, with the F.O.R.A and two other unions already win us a vote. It is more if we wanted to control the AIT we opened up the secretary of the AIT and act as the current one, which we did not conceive from a libertarian perspective. It is more the proportional vote gives more votes proportionally to the unions smaller to not be crushed by the bigger, is the system that uses the CNT.

In short, the expulsion (there is no figure of spension in the statutes of the AIT) of the FAU has precipitated that we feel marginalized and reviled within the AIT added to the attitude of the current secretary makes us not sure of wanting to continue forming Part of the AIT as it works.

If these authoritarian attitudes persist morally as anarcho-syndicalists we can not be in an organization of that style and we will have to consider how to practice internationalism, something that we carry within our philosophy.
Another argument for the AIT sections to begin with a voice but no vote is that a small section doing organizational work within the AIT subtracts local or field work, and decisions in a small group go directly to the AIT without assessing the possibilities To carry it out (what is happening now with the working groups in the AIT, there are no people) and that is not a stupid one. At the CNT we also propose nonsense but this first happens through the filter of the regional meetings that can tell us hears that that is a stupid or in the state meetings, we go through three meetings before approving an agreement and in them the philosophy of the meetings Is, who proposes to do. So we do not leave agreements in the air that can not be done.

Mark.

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on November 26, 2016

Discussion on alasbarricadas: http://www.alasbarricadas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=60885&start=60

Lo que me parece muy cutre es querer irse de la AIT pero quedarse con las siglas.

akai

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on November 26, 2016

Mark, for the record, you are better at helping spread lies than this Byzantine looney.

Salvoechea

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on November 26, 2016

Laure. What are you doing in forums (speaking personally but being recognised as the IWA secretary)? Don't realise yourself this is not serious? In the end you give the reason to your opponents.

MT

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on November 26, 2016

Salvoechea, what are you doing in this forum? Why do you breathe the same air as other humans? It gives aliens reason to attack us all...

but seriously, you have a problem that someone tells truth about things you wish so badly to misinform about. i can see that this is uncomfortable for you and so you try to invent bullshit (like, when you have a position in an organization, you have to shut up - i believe that in the saint leaders of the CNTE follow the same nonsense "rule":):)

bizantino

7 years 4 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on November 26, 2016

Attacking is not asking for responsibilities to an AIT charge, that's coherence. When they do not like us to say the truth they accuse us of hysterics, of madmen and of lying, it demonstrates the value of their positions and their arguments.

I say again in three or four years will see the lies and effects of that authoritarianism and Laure Akai will remain in the place of the story that corresponds.

There is a Castilian saying that a liar is caught before a lame and another says that the lie has very short legs.

I am still waiting for the proposals of the CNT which I have set out above to be countermeasured against me and which, according to the secretary of the IWA, are very bad things.

Mark.

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on December 1, 2016

'Tras el éxito de la Conferencia Internacional de Barakaldo: gracias a todas y todos'

http://cnt.es/noticias/tras-el-éxito-de-la-conferencia-internacional-de-barakaldo-gracias-todas-y-todos

Edit: link to English translation posted by melenas below

Salvoechea

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on December 1, 2016

CNT agradece de corazón la asistencia y la participación en la Conferencia Internacional de Barakaldo de los delegados y delegadas de IWW de Estados Unidos y Canadá, IWW de Reino Unido e Irlanda, FAU e IWW de Alemania, IP de Polonia, USI de Italia, ESE y Rocinante de Grecia, CNT-GAP y CNT-Vignoles de Francia y FORA de Argentina, así como los mensajes de adhesión de la Sociedad Obrera de Paraguay, FOB de Brasil y CNT-STCPP de Francia.

By the way, there's a couple of days left to the next IWA Congress and there's no any clue of that event on the IWA website:

http://www.iwa-ait.org/

And it's quite curious to see the comments of Akai in youtube against Paradelo and the CNT for organising a new international. Why not organising a better thing than CNT-led international instead?

Ed

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ed on December 1, 2016

So, I've dipped in and out of this thread as a) it's been really long and broken up by occasional links to important texts in Spanish; and b) I find it too depressing to read about the break up of the largest libertarian communist international at a time of far-right nationalist surge across the world.

But just to be clear: I get that the split is about both sides being unhappy with how various IWA groups have behaved towards each other and towards others outside the IWA; however, are both sides now saying that the 'other side' are doing worthless organising?

I kind of get that idea from the CNT/USI/FAU side: that ZSP, PA etc don't do any 'real' union work. That's obviously bollocks; they do lots of great work, especially given the lack of anarcho-syndicalist tradition in their countries.

But I'm also getting that impression from the other side as well: that the CNT/USI/FAU are 'yellow unions' or exaggerate/lie about membership numbers, activity etc..

So is that a correct estimation of this row? That it's not just a case of saying which groups have or haven't followed procedure and which have or haven't behaved like dicks; it's also a case of saying the 'other side' (whichever side that is) is shit at libertarian union organising?

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 1, 2016

Now is not the time to insult or absurd confrontations, now is the time to demonstrate with practice the thesis and time puts everything in its place.

Not always one plus one add two, there are times that one plus one remains.

Khawaga

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on December 1, 2016

This debate reflects rather poorly on everyone involved. This to an outsider who knows very little about the orgs involved. Sad as Trump would say.

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 1, 2016

After the success of the Barakaldo International Conference: many thanks to all

CNT wants to thank all the delegates from the different organisations for attending and taking part in the Barakaldo International Conference. We've been lucky enough to have comrades from IWW from the USA and Canada, IWW from the UK and Ireland, FAU and IWW from Germany, IP from Poland, USI from Italy, ESE and Rocinante from Greece, CNT-GAP and CNT-Vignoles from France and FORA from Argentina, as well as receiving solidarity statements from the Sociedad Obrera from Paraguay, FOB from Brazil and CNT-STCPP from France.

Mark.

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on December 1, 2016

as well as receiving solidarity statements from the Sociedad Obrera from Paraguay, FOB from Brazil

Links for these organisations were posted on the alasbarricadas thread. The FOB site refers to revolutionary syndicalism - though without any historical references and perhaps revolutionary unionism would be a more accurate translation. From a quick skim through it seems to have come about as a kind of rank and file movement, mainly among public sector workers, opposed to the increasing closeness of unions to the PT government. I get a sense of something a bit along the lines of the Italian base unions, although without, as yet, breaking away from existing unions.

FOB: https://lutafob.wordpress.com

The link posted for Paraguay is for the Sociedad de Trabajadores which seems to be explicitly anarcho-syndicalist. I'm assuming this is actually the group that sent the support statement.

https://www.facebook.com/Sociedad-de-Trabajadores-1730091903902243/

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 1, 2016

---

Lugius

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on December 2, 2016

I kind of get that idea from the CNT/USI/FAU side: that ZSP, PA etc don't do any 'real' union work. That's obviously bollocks; they do lots of great work, especially given the lack of anarcho-syndicalist tradition in their countries.

They have to say that because they lack a good reason for the creation of a third interrnational. The only other justifiacations put forward as far as I can see is the the IWA has become ideological and is isolationist, presumably a reference to the positions of no-contact with SAC and the calling of the FAU to account. The other theme is that the current IWA Secretary is very ideological and overly-inquisatorial and generally attributing power to the Secretary of the IWA does not have.

But I'm also getting that impression from the other side as well: that the CNT/USI/FAU are 'yellow unions' or exaggerate/lie about membership numbers, activity etc..

It may be useful to distinguish between official statements of organisations and personal opinions proffered by individuals. Certainly, the CNT Levante have called the CNT exiters 'yellow' but the IWA hasd made no statement to that effect AFAIK.

The 26th Congress of the IWA is taking place now so I would think a statement would be made in the next week.

Lugius

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on December 2, 2016

By the way, there's a couple of days left to the next IWA Congress and there's no any clue of that event on the IWA website:

http://www.iwa-ait.org/content/misconceptions-over-split-conference

2nd paragraph

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 2, 2016

Lugius

By the way, there's a couple of days left to the next IWA Congress and there's no any clue of that event on the IWA website:

http://www.iwa-ait.org/content/misconceptions-over-split-conference

2nd paragraph

You answer your self, That is the importance of IWA congress in IWA website, second paragraph in a critic to a meeting.

and please don´t go as you act in a very right way because the last year you are publishing things of groups that usurp CNT patrimony and name, also usurp IWA name in your FB page in spanish:

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1473081019384692&id=1063863296973135

and there are more examples a long that page and also in the page of ASF:

https://www.facebook.com/anarchosyndicalistfederation/posts/10154410587971953

1intento

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by 1intento on December 4, 2016

It looks like the IWA has expulsed the CNT.

Lugius

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on December 5, 2016

It looks like the IWA has expulsed the CNT.

What else could it do given the CNT has not paid its dues for three years.

I understand the CNT has signalled its intention to re-apply to become the Spanish section of IWA.

Ragnar

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on December 5, 2016

hahaha do you talking about "CNT" Levante?? because in Spain there are only one CNT ;)

Salvoechea

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on December 5, 2016

I guess some more CNT unions are going to join CNT-Levante scission. Not many, but the result might be a small 'union' (a propaganda group in fact) of about 2-300 members. Irrelevant for spanish working class.
However, that will be good for everyone, as the internal conflict will come to an end. While CNT is growing all these controversies are out of place and make unions waste quite a lot of time. There's no point in that. If that new CNT rejoins IWA, good for them. End of the story.

militant-proletarian

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by militant-proletarian on December 5, 2016

I sincerely have to say: thank you all for kicking us out of that living dead called IWA. Now we're able to do our union work without its dogmatic point of view of doing nothing. It's really good to feel ourselves free to do whatever we like with no moral police crying about reformism and conspirative bullshit.

However, by looking at your pics, I gotta say you shouldn't work side by side with a guy who used his position to sign an agreement of mass dismissals from Marsans in Madrid helping their bosses to sack hundreds of workers and to lock out the company. It's not a good way to start from "scratch".

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 5, 2016

Lugius

It looks like the IWA has expulsed the CNT.

What else could it do given the CNT has not paid its dues for three years.

I understand the CNT has signalled its intention to re-apply to become the Spanish section of IWA.

If iwa was coherent with what says about using the name of iwa with out being part of it, should do the same about what you call "CNT" and do not accepted them since they are not part of CNT.

But this is the tipical "do what I say, not what I do".

Good luck, you will need it.

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 5, 2016

Marsans despedirá a sus 1.400 trabajadores con un ERE de extinción

http://www.rtve.es/noticias/20100728/comite-empresa-marsans-acepta-ere-extincion-total-empleos/342357.shtml

The person that signed this was in the IWA Congress and appear in the photos. And then the reformist are the rest of the unions...

As I told you, good luck.

Lugius

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on December 5, 2016

However, by looking at your pics, I gotta say you shouldn't work side by side with a guy who used his position to sign an agreement of mass dismissals from Marsans in Madrid helping their bosses to sack hundreds of workers and to lock out the company. It's not a good way to start from "scratch".

What about a guy who speaks at meetings of Catalan Nationalists?

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

Salvoechea

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on December 5, 2016

It is not exactly the same to take part in an open forum with other political options defending revolutionary syndicalist views than to agree with bosses to sack 1400 workers. If you are not able to see a slight difference here you have a problem.

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 5, 2016

Lugius

However, by looking at your pics, I gotta say you shouldn't work side by side with a guy who used his position to sign an agreement of mass dismissals from Marsans in Madrid helping their bosses to sack hundreds of workers and to lock out the company. It's not a good way to start from "scratch".

What about a guy who speaks at meetings of Catalan Nationalists?

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

Thats tour problem, you red a bullshit in FB and came here to reapeat it. Is already explained that is a lay, but that's secondary, de first is, like whatever fascist media, spear bullshits to atack the anarchist.

"En vuestra paranoia confundíis el SG del regional con un chaval de la CUP pero os da igual: la cuestión es meter mierda."

You only leave clear your misery and pour arguments.

Ragnar

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on December 5, 2016


Nothing about that is shame. In a debate about sindicalistme should be always giving our point of view. What´s wrong?

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 5, 2016

What is done is done. Move on everyone.

If people want to play "size matters" game or whatever, it really doesn't matter
at this point.

Apparently both sides seem to be done with each other at this point.

Edit: I neither say this happily or with joy. But if folks couldn't fix it
before the respective meeting and congress, putting each other down now, rightly or wrongly, will resolve nothing.

militant-proletarian

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by militant-proletarian on December 5, 2016

Maybe for Lugius, as for all sectarian, debates have to be for ourselves just like the speeches of the scab mentioned above, I mean that who signed a dismissal of 1400 workers. And you compared this awful and shameful stuff with a public discussion about unionism in public sector?

I think you should check history. Most of historical anarchists challenged other tendencies and political parties to discuss in public, Anselmo Lorenzo, Mühsam, Berkman and Goldman, Malatesta, etc. Oh sure, we cannot meet other ideologies to defend our proposal, we have to stay "pure"...

Lugius

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on December 5, 2016

I sincerely have to say: thank you all for kicking us out of that living dead called IWA. Now we're able to do our union work without its dogmatic point of view of doing nothing. It's really good to feel ourselves free to do whatever we like with no moral police crying about reformism and conspirative bullshit.

When you say 'us' I presume you are referring to the FAU. The FAU was not kicked out it was suspended for repeated breaches of agreements at IWA Congress.

After Barkaldo, it was clear that the FAU has left of its own free will. The IWA Congress ackowledged this by formally disaffiliating the FAU. As it has with the CNT and the USI. The CNT delegates present acknowledged that the CNT was no longer a member of the IWA on account of not paying dues for three years but vowed to re-apply as the Spanish section, presumably at the next IWA Congress. Currently, there is neither a German or Italian section of the IWA, they need to be re-built and this will take time.

IWA Congress decisions are binding on all member affiliates. The FAU regarded itself as above and beyond IWA Congress decisions as evidenced by its continued refusal to abide by IWA Congress decisions. The FAU could have at any time chosen to leave the IWA if they really wanted to free itself "to do whatever we like with no moral police crying about reformism and conspirative bullshit".

If the FAU felt constrained by the IWA and felt that the IWA Congress decisions thwarted their autonomy, they could leave and no IWA Congress can stop them.

But that is not what the FAU did. The FAU, along with the USI and at least some part of the CNT imagined themselves to be in a position of authority over the IWA and to decide, on its behalf, to re-found the IWA. This was clearly stated. And every organisation that accepted an invitation to Barkaldo approved this message. The primary justification put forward boils down to "We are Might therefore We are Right". This authoritarianism should be resisted on principle.

The Exiters have attempted to further justify that they, and they alone, are real unions and the rest of what comprises the IWA are 'mere propaganda groups' that do no union activity. While these sections are undoubtedly small when compared to the CNT for example, to say that they do no union activity is patently untrue. They conveniently ignore the union work of the ZSP for example, because it suits their narrative.

It also reveals the attitude of the Exiters with regard to solidarity with those anarcho-syndicalist organisations however small attempting to transition from 'mere propaganda group' to a union. It is not one of mutual aid and assistance based on the idea that this solidarity is consistent with the principle of 'from each section according to its ability to each section according to its need'.

On the contrary, the Exiters hosility to and diminshing and demonising of those sections is motivated by their desire to deny those sections rights to vote as a means of centralising control into fewer hands. It reveals they have no real desire to expand the IWA beyond the comfortable confines of Western Europe precisely because it represents a potential threat to their hegemonic position.

It stretches credulity to imagine that the CNT/FAU/USI woke up one day a realised that mere propaganda groups had more votes combined than they had. All three participated in the IWA Congresses that admitted these new sections. If mere propaganda groups are such a problem, why admit them in the first place? It also stretches credulity to imagine that fully-formed 'real' anarcho-syndicalist unions will appear in places where mere propaganda groups are entirely absent. 'Real' anarcho-syndicalist unions do not fall from the sky and an extraordinarily talented and exceptionally brilliant comrade does not simply extract a fully-formed 'real' anarcho-syndicalist union from his or her hat.They have to start somewhere. And if any comrade can tell me how a fully-formed 'real anarcho-syndicalist union can come into being in the absence of a sustained effort by a mere propaganda group, I'm all ears.

The real problem for the Exiters is one of control. It was no problem as long as mere propaganda groups toed the line and the IWA Secretariat remained in Spain where a firm grip on the reins could be sustained. The problem arose when the IWA Secretariat carried out its mandate in accordance with IWA Congresses.

It appears that the Barkaldo conference made no mention of refounding the IWA and are entering into a process whereby a new international will be formed. If that is the case and that is clear, then there can be no problem. It reflects real political differences with regard to what extent can anarcho-syndicalist unions involve the State in their affairs and remain anarcho-syndicalist as opposed to essentially reformist with a revolutionary veneer. But the question remains, to what benefit is it to form yet another international? And in whose interest?

Lugius

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on December 6, 2016

Nothing about that is shame. In a debate about sindicalistme should be always giving our point of view. What´s wrong?

You miss the point entirely. It is not about how bad any individual is, about how bad the Lion of Alahambra is or about how bad the current Secretary of the IWA is. This is the thinking of the Marxist-Leninist; "if we could only get the right people into positions of leadership, everything will be ok".

No. Any problem any individual may present is entirely the responsibility of the affiliate that individual is a member of. If the affiliate will not take responsibility for the behaviour of their constituent member, then any disciplinary or remedial action such as suspension or expulsion should applied to that affiliate by an agreed process.

There is a very good reason for this; there will be no executive from outside and above that will decide to suspend or expel an individual.

The principle of an affiliate being responsible for the behaviour of its constituent members disipates power away from the individual in favour of the assembly.

Like I said, let those without sin cast the first stone.

With regard to putting our point of view, this can be done without accepting an invitation from nationalists nor extending an invitation to them. If you are going to debate nationalists why stop there? Why not debate fascists? Why not apply the logic evenly?

We can give our point of view without providing or participating in a platform for nationalists.

Jim

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Jim on December 6, 2016

Lugius

Currently, there is neither a German or Italian section of the IWA, they need to be re-built and this will take time.

This seems quite naive.

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 6, 2016

http://www.iwa-ait.org/content/statement-xxvi-congress

The divisive and destructive attempts by of the CNT’s Confederal Committee in complicity with FAU and USI is nothing more than an attack on the very principles, tactics and aims of the IWA and anarchosyndicalism.

We recognize the conflict within the CNT. We received declarations of support addressed to the congress by about 40 local unions from Spain (both current and former members of the CNT), and the congress was also attended by a number of observers from these and other unions who are concerned with developments within their organizations.

Yes, IWA did it again, say something and the opposite in the same text. First says that CNT left IWA because the decision of Confederal Committee, and in the next paragraph says that 40 unions of CNT sent a letter giving support to IWA. Of that 40 already leave clear that part of them are former members (arround 15 for sure). With this affirmation, IWA finally accept that this unions are a minority in number of unions (in number of members are very small minority). CNT now a days has more than 80 unions. Also, for sure, part of that 40 unions are nucleos confederales, so IWA is speaking about around less than 25 current unions sign that letter.

However, they continue laying to their selves and to the rest. A bit pathetic. Nothing more to say to the people than thanks for finally accept that the CNT agreements were taken in congress by a majority of the unions and members of CNT.

And this happens when you believe to a person that try to defend that signing an agreement with a company to close the company and fire 1400 workers is anarchosindicalist.

Rob Ray

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Rob Ray on December 6, 2016

Can this thread be closed now? The discussion topic is now concluded, and I don't see much point in people sniping at each other and causing ever more bitterness for the foreseeable.

MT

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by MT on December 6, 2016

I only can second that.
And that the same for http://libcom.org/forums/news/shout-out-solidarity-greetings-international-workers-association-xxi-congress-301120

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 6, 2016

What has happened here is very simple, affiliates to unions like CNT have felt that their membership in the AIT are just duties, without rights. Duty to collaborate and pay, but without the right to comment on equal terms with the rest.

From the AIT it was wanted to impose that it can not come together in mobilizations or acts with other organizations, limiting the trade union and social action of the CNT. We are in a moment in which not only exists the CNT in the mobilizations but hundreds of groups of different types with which there is no other remedy or fortune to converge. From mobilizations for freedom of expression to mobilizations in a factory, we are not alone and it is a fact that converging with more people we lift more sympathies, we have more influence and more strength.

The round tables with other organizations are a very good tool to confront ideas and win those other organizations exposing our points of view, something that has always been done before before the nineteenth century in the libertarian movement.

We also met with an AIT secretary who has been working on sticks on the wheels since the 1st minute, questioning the agreements of the CNT, interpreting their agreements, using the secretary to sow discord and acting in an authoritarian manner.

With these baskets, this basket is the one that has come out. The immense majority of the CNT sees with sadness how ugly it has been, but we have the crazy desire to continue working to keep the line of being implanted in the companies, to continue growing, to continue fomandonos to make anarcosindicalismo in a referent in Spain having a Sufficient number of workers in our ranks to be able to talk in a serious way of tomorrow.

I wish good luck to the unions that act in good faith within the AIT, just to say that those on the road will meet again.

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 6, 2016

Rob Ray

Can this thread be closed now? The discussion topic is now concluded, and I don't see much point in people sniping at each other and causing ever more bitterness for the foreseeable.

Because there was iwa congress the proposal of CNT is not concluded, remember that is about that proposal de discasion. The proposal is on the table and is not finish to put it on practice.

This one should continue open for the people that wants to speak about the new international (part of the proposal)

jesuithitsquad

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on December 6, 2016

Good god, please no.

Steven.

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Steven. on December 11, 2016

Yeah as the person above says, this thread is technically for the discussion of the proposed new "international" by the CNT, which hasn't happened yet so we will leave it open for now for people to discuss this if they like.

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 11, 2016

Not sure I would suggest locking it if folks are civil and post relevant things
(Post conference reports and so forth). If it becomes a shit storm of nastiness,
Then closing would be ok.

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 12, 2016

TIC Tac. TIC Tac. Time will put everything in its place.

Very interesting to contrast the answers that follow the writing.
For example this one.

"Once again we see how the good name of the International is defamed by those who, in the purest Marxist style, want to destroy it simply because they can not control it"
This is a mantra that is false. CNT brought friendly and less friendly agreements, proposals and proposals to the last AIT congresses in Porto and Valencia. The result was a roll of votes, arguments about the "reformist and parallelism conspiracy" and an environment of everything less healthy and libertarian. It is not that the CNT has wanted to dominate the AIT (that there will be who in the CNT), that is what the vast majority of unions have wanted to PARTICIPATE. And they have not been left among 15 people in 5 nation states.

Those expulsions that have been given "by the roll of the phantom vote" in CNT have become quite more participatory (with all the maneuvers of one and others that have been given) than what has been lived in the Congresses of the AIT of the last years . If in CNT there is purchase of votes for affiliates to quote by bank, what happens in the AIT does not fit in indymedia of how grotesque it is.

"The clique that controls the CNT"
This conception of CNT, by pure conspiranoia, blocks all debate. You have to take more walks through the unions and meet peers to get rid of this nonsense.
With this you can see everything. You have to fuck, you have to reach the end for you to portray in this way. The quota, today as in year 32, is a form of PER SE commitment. That a worker contributes to the union is valuable on its own, that our people do not usually have the pasta, but we are going to criticize that because people do not come to the assemblies to hear us talk about the WSA. We are going to criticize that the quota is domiciled. We are going to criticize that the CNT does not have militancy because the people do not go to the assemblies. If we are going to criticize that, let's go with everything: the CNT not only has more affiliation than the whole AIT together, it also has MORE MILITANCE than the whole AIT together. And better shaped pictures. And workers with more class consciousness and with a better structured ideology than who only knows how to say BETRAY TO THE PRINCIPLES. When you want we talk about that too, because of union strategy and cooperativist we are adjusted.

In short, blessed indymedia that allows these things not to pass from here and in real life to talk about other things. I will take this: "If the CNT had no more patrimony than its own struggle, this nonsense would not be happening and here we would talk about other kinds of issues."

"The expulsion of the FAU"
It was not "the excuse". I repeat that after TWO congresses in which the delegations conveyed that what had been experienced had been subrealist, minutes that reflected useless and sterile agreements and a climate of paranoia and persecution, confidence could not be worse. The FAU did not detonate anything, the wick was already on.

"The coffers of the CNT
The treasury in CNT is a brown difficult to handle, and yet there are compas who lend themselves to it. The management is not good nor by far, in sight is, but there are not many alternatives and when they have raised objections (the congress expenses are bulky "" the GTC costs money (36000 a month ?????? you go fipando , But they would like "" SP spending on diets ") have always been considered as ways to cut deals that they do not like: as the congress has been expensive, it is contested. Like the expensive GTC, it is eliminated. And so. The coffers are bad and are a problem in themselves, but using it as an excuse to shit at all is very stupid.

"Pedro Serna"
If the union of Valladolid had a little pride, would have fucked your theory on "the differences with the Galicians." The union of Valladolid, after sacrificing a significant volume of its militancy (which must have something) with SP and Períodico, is who is facing an internal process of accountability, expulsion and return of the stolen. Without having to mediate anyone and nobody had to give the touch from outside, and that the problem was CNT and not Valladolid, given that poor management over accounts is reviewed in full and should not be reviewed only in The local Valladolid. If you had the least companionship or interest, if you had agreed with them to work for the organization and not to the equal against you did not go through all this so tiptoe. It would be well if the Elda SOV would have made a tenth of the CNT from what these have done.

"The problem is that turning affiliates into militants is very complicated, and in fact most of the time is not achieved. That is why many have thrown the towel and opted for the CNT to become a service union. "

If this is the problem of the bottom turns off and vamonós. Let's go to classes of mates: NO MEMBERSHIP IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT YOU HAVE MILITANCE. So there is growing affiliation to grow membership. POINT. You are not giving answers to this. The CNT REAL is committed to militancy, the service syndicalism and these phantoms that you and your friends agitate is yet to prove, but has a concrete strategy to get militancy: AFFILIATION AND TRAINING. In front of us we have the nothing, the complaint, the conspiracy, the pataleo and the schemes of the past: assembly, picket, poster and Christian sacrifice for "the idea".

"Many of the unions that operate more properly than a service union rather than one of the militants now charge their affiliates through the bank, so they no longer even have to go to an assembly once in a while When to pay: they are charged the fee even if they have not seen their hair for months or even years.

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 12, 2016

^^^^. I'm sorry, but this translation is difficult to follow
Must be a machine translation. Is this defending "service unionism" or criticising
it?

robot

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by robot on December 12, 2016

Well folks, if we're about to start recommending texts in Spanish, you might want to give that one a try: http://noticiasayr.blogspot.de/2016/11/la-crisis-de-la-ait-desde-la_2.html

Having experienced (or better suffered...) a lot of the quarrel mentioned in the text, I found the most of the stuff to be quite accurate. Which propably means that the Lügius from down under won't like it at all ;-)

Ragnar

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on December 12, 2016

syndicalist.
criticising, CNT is not "service unionism" ;)

In this link, if you look the first and seventh answer. Maybe with google translate.

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 12, 2016

robot

Well folks, if we're about to start recommending texts in Spanish, you might want to give that one a try: http://noticiasayr.blogspot.de/2016/11/la-crisis-de-la-ait-desde-la_2.html

Having experienced (or better suffered...) a lot of the quarrel mentioned in the text, I found the most of the stuff to be quite accurate. Which propably means that the Lügius from down under won't like it at all ;-)

Respectfully Robot, the text is sort of selective when it comes to the US. Some of us who went on to form the Wsa in1984 were part of the 1970s regrowth of the IWA. As you know, we played as constructive as role possible given the distance and communication (snail mail) of that era.
My own experiances go up 2000 so I can not speak to those events after that date.

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 12, 2016

Ragnar

syndicalist.
criticising, CNT is not "service unionism" ;)

In this link, if you look the first and seventh answer. Maybe with google translate.

Probably better to just link to original text. The machine translation is not very good

melenas

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on December 12, 2016

syndicalist

^^^^. I'm sorry, but this translation is difficult to follow
Must be a machine translation. Is this defending "service unionism" or criticising
it?

There is some people saying that CNT is only a service like when you go to a lawyer and that's all.

If funny to listan that from unions that also use lawyers and they close the conflict when they loose in the court, and is funny when they call that to your local union that has won conflicts after loosing in the court, because we use direct accion.

I hope this answer your question.

Mark.

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on December 12, 2016

syndicalist

Probably better to just link to original text. The machine translation is not very good

It's the seventh comment below the indymedia article linked to by Lugius:

http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/508022/index.php

robot

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by robot on December 12, 2016

syndicalist

Respectfully Robot, the text is sort of selective when it comes to the US. Some of us who went on to form the Wsa in1984 were part of the 1970s regrowth of the IWA. As you know, we played as constructive as role possible given the distance and communication (snail mail) of that era.My own experiances go up 2000 so I can not speak to those events after that date.

Sorry, seems I missed the point? When it comes to the WSA, the text tells the story of the “Minnesota gang“ and its succesful coup d'etat against the founders of the WSA. As well as Garcia Ruas backing up of the coup–the quittance for members of the WSA taking part in the international solidarity conferences as me and others commented at the time. Or did I miss something where the author denied the constructive role of the pre-Minnesota WSA (just to mention the contacts with the Awareness League for instance)?

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 12, 2016

I just deleted my reply.....errrr...

Hola Robot....what I was trying to say is that we were part of the reemergence of the IWA in the 1970s as well. Only a couple of selected organizations were mentioned, I sorta took that to be done for political reasons.

WSA negative experience came decades after we joined the IWA.

Anyway, just seems like any positive mention of WSA gets put aside.

militant-proletarian

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by militant-proletarian on December 13, 2016

Lugius

http://www.iwa-ait.org/content/xxvi-congress-international-workers-association

On the other hand, people are ready to reconstitute IWA affiliates in ltaly and Germany and there are many unions from Spain that declare they have not left the IWA. A numerous delegation from Spain appeared, from the project to reconstruct the CNT-AIT and also from the now defederated organization. These organizations distributed statements, papers and pamphlets expressing their support for the IWA and describing the current derive of the CNT into a more verticalized organization where, in their opinion, the committees have too much power and usurp the decision-making powers of the militancy.

Although the CNT in Spain, led by the union bureaucracy, is disaffiliated, we recognize that all those who adhere to our principles, tactics and goals and feel still part of our movement, who respect the federalist pact, not acting against it, are our comrades. Only they can claim to be the CNT-AIT. We do not accept the faction of CNT Spain led by the Confederal Committee and participating in the parallel international project, which goes against our statutes and agreements. They have no right to appear or act in the name of our federation, to which they no longer belong.

There is only one CNT now in Spain, with thousands of members, who decided in its Congress by a huge majority, to start a new process at an international level. Even though I think that "refounding" whatever was a mistake, since you've showed yourselves the sort of people you are, it's kinda pathetic you use the same argument to say there is "another" CNT. Moreover you claim "in their opinion" and then two lines below "led by the union bureaucracy". That means you accepted the shitty pamphlet and views of the "numerous delegation" as a truth. Yes, some well-known "comrades" from SOV Madrid, led by a scab who took part in dismissals of workers and lock-out of a company, another "comrade" from Granada, promoted by the Lion of Granada, who is the main responsible of the IWA situation, and some dudes from Albacete, which is no longer part of the CNT, they are the guardian of Spanish anarchosyndicalism.

The next Congress will deal with the issue in Spain, where the CNT-AIT will be represented by those continuing in its legacy.

We are continuing our legacy because we never got rid of it.

axxs

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by axxs on December 15, 2016

"We are continuing our legacy because we never got rid of it."

Pretty sure the CNT-AIT legacy was to abide by its statutes in being part of the IWA, and to agree to the decisions made at a Congress, not just walk rough shod over process and agreements with others as if they just don't matter.

Might is right tho eh?

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 16, 2016

The Cnt has never lost its principles, its tactics and its aims.

One of them is internationalism and in the ait it is difficult to carry it out because some of those who say your comrades are involved in your activity as a union.

The ait has a lot of history, sure that there are valid people inside. If the tool is not worth or we improve it to be worth or we do something else.

In congress people decided that ait is immobile so to do something else.

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 25, 2016

An interview with CNT on what has happened in the AIT, have a good day.

A translation in good condition would be good.

Amor y rabia says:

Discreetly, it could almost be said in silence, an event is taking place that will have serious consequences for the future of the International Libertarian Movement: the reorganization of anarcho-syndicalism at the international level, at the initiative of the CNT. Following the agreement reached at its XI Congress in December 2015, the CNT organized an International Conference of anarchist and anarcho-syndicalist organizations together with the German FAU and the Italian USI (26-27 November 2016, Bilbao). To know the objectives of this conference we have interviewed members of the work team of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in a conversation that intends to go to the bottom of the question, without dogmatism or myth.

http://noticiasayr.blogspot.com.es/2016 ... parte.html

http://noticiasayr.blogspot.com.es/2016 ... parte.html

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 25, 2016

akai

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on December 25, 2016

More trash. The answer will be elsewhere as this is a disinformation/propaganda channel. But, just a few things. FORA is not expelled. That's more disinformation. The name of our Section in France is CNT-AIT - but we have already established that the author has no idea who is in the neighbouring country. One last interesting thing, that shows that the CNTE and USl withdrew, and the Congress just recognized the obvious, is that the CNTE cast their vote at the Congress on the question of their membership and abstained. lf things were as this looney was claiming, then it would have been enough for USl, FORA and CNTE to vote against their own disaffiliation.

bizantino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bizantino on December 25, 2016

The first question of the interview translated with the translator of google.

LOVE AND RAGE: For those of us who have been in the organization for decades, it is a surprise that the CNT decided to relaunch the AIT, and even more the way to do it: it is assumed that it is impossible to change it through a consensual agreement, And try to create a new organization, calls for a "refoundation of the AIT" outside the organic channels. The change in the international strategy of the CNT is an agreement taken at the XI Congress, but for almost a whole year nothing has been heard, the information has been shrouded by its absence.

This silence contrasts sharply with the information activity of the AIT Secretariat, which uses the internet to accuse the CNT, the FAU and the USI (90% of the AIT membership) of splits, and who are not informed of where it will hold The ITA its next Congress in December ... Why this policy of communication, bordering on secrecy and that delights any conspirator? Why do things get carried out in this way, giving arguments to the AIT Secretariat to act against organizations that make up the vast majority of the militancy of the AIT?

CNT Foreign Secretariat: This may be the result of being the target of the unique, and therefore easily frenetic, activity of the AIT Secretariat and some of its sections. On the contrary, from
The first question of the interview translated with the translator of google.

CNT we have resisted to enter the dynamics of wasting time responding to "trolls" in Internet forums and we have preferred to concentrate on carrying out our project. In fact, the development of the agreements reached at the XI Congress of the CNT in the field of AIT and internationalism has been an arduous task of contact with unions from other countries, assistance to Congresses of brother unions, such as FAU and USI , Among others, as well as an intense collaboration with these last two organizations in this matter.

We have come to assume that it was not worth while to take time out of the numerous constructive activities of the CNT to confuse us in answering accusations that most of the time have no other basis than to generate enough noise to lose sight of what That is happening, and the logic goes into the background. This is not now, a lot of things that have been done in recent years and have become visible have been defamed and surrounded by lies, responding to a certain attitude of some of the sections of the AIT and its secretariat. In fact, much of the AIT's problems stem from this vigilant and censoring attitude, which leads some sections lacking real activity to have an exclusively digital existence, centered on defamation of the positive developments of other union-active sections.

Tic, tac, tic, tac.....

http://noticiasayr.blogspot.com.es/2016 ... parte.html

http://noticiasayr.blogspot.com.es/2016 ... parte.html

Mpirino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mpirino on December 25, 2016

Akai said:

"The name of our Section in France is CNT-AIT"

Mpirino

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mpirino on December 25, 2016

Akai

"The name of our Section in France is CNT-AIT"

I can't find their website,can you help?

Ragnar

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on December 26, 2016

They haven´t website, Mpirino. ;)

klas batalo

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by klas batalo on December 26, 2016

Yeah FORA observed the meeting in Spain, but they were not expelled. Wtf...

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 28, 2016

Never mind. It seems like the document is a machine translation. I'll just figure certain parts out by googling some of the words used. But it's clear enough they are supportive of an exit strategy.

syndicalist

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on December 28, 2016

Sorry,deleted comment, you had out linked.At work, rushing.

Mark.

7 years 3 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Mark. on December 28, 2016

syndicalist

Never mind. It seems like the document is a machine translation.

You might find the Spanish version more readable.

melenas

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on February 9, 2017

to update a bit this.

FORA inform that they are out of IWA and they will take part in the new international:

FORA

"The Federación Obrera Regional Argentina, in accordance with the
opinion of the international situation, informs that it does not
consider the current International Association of Workers with
secretariat in Warsaw, Poland, an institution that reflects the spirit
of struggle of workers as Knew how to do in other times, and clarifies
that she considers itself disaffiliated.
Having said this, it affirms the participation in the international
coordination convened by the trade unions CNT, USI and FAU having
participated the FORA of the conference of Bilbao the 26 and 27 of
November of 2016.

Federal Council

FORA

http://libcom.org/blog/beyond-iwa-interview-cnt%E2%80%99s-international-secretary-04012017

The information gave by IWA about how many unions of CNT and former unions give support to IWA, now we can say that part of the number is a lie. Some of the unions they count as suporters not even voted about it in their assemblies and was only one person or group of persons that signed the paper.
Further more, there was an internal investigation about all this and the parallels and was proved that the some persons and unions of CNT created a parallel organization to try to control the union or if they are not able, to break the organization. That people was trying to break the organization before the X CNT congress and that Laure Akai know it. This parallel organization was coordinating boycotts to the congresses agreements and making informs about the unions and the agreements.

All this campaign against CNT is organize and prepare by this people, first they boycott CNT and then they make public internal agreements and bullshits to continue the boycott trying to presents them selves as victims.

The time puts everyone in his correct position.

Spikymike

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Spikymike on February 9, 2017

I thought the UK SolFed's pamphlet 'Fighting For Ourselves' one of the better anarcho-syndicalist strategies relevant to the modern era but it left at the time an unanswered question about it's relevance or support internationally. I wonder where that leaves the 'Solidarity Federation' in the light of these serious splits in the IWA (see here http://libcom.org/blog/new-pamphlet-solidarity-federation-31082012) for a separate discussion of that aspect perhaps.

melenas

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on February 9, 2017

My point of view, SF position in IWA is not easy, I'm sure that soon or late they will be attack or they will feel that they have nothing to do in IWA.

[Edited]

Rob Ray

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Rob Ray on February 9, 2017

Try not to shit-stir melenas, as per SF and IWA policy Andy's on hiatus while he's in post with RMT.

Salvoechea

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on February 10, 2017

Something is wrong when you have a union-mate in an important position and you have to leave him/her out for not breaking your principles.

Juan Conatz

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on February 10, 2017

Seems important that officers of reformist unions should not be in revolutionary unions while they hold that position.

Ragnar

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on February 14, 2017

why? I think that if they accept double affiliation the only restriction should be that SF can not be an Officer. I hope you know that in a revolutionary union grows and is effective in winning struggles will increase the number of members who will not be identically radical / revolutionary.

Lugius

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on February 15, 2017

http://newworldinourhearts.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/more-purges-and-evictions-or-change-in.html?view=timeslide

It looks as if the the tissue of falsehoods propagated by the CNT Confederal Committee is coming apart at the seams.

It seems to me that the membership of the CNT were mislead with regard to the nature of the motion to 're-found' the IWA. And now there is a proposal to recall the Confederal Committee.

http://newworldinourhearts.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/cnt-motion-to-recall-secretariat-sends.html?view=timeslide

Do the ends justify the means or do the means determine the ends?

I see Juan Conatz is applying a double standard; attacking the IWA for 'ideological rigidity' while at the same time making an oblique criticism of the SolFed on effectively the same basis.

How long before the comrades in the IWW realise they've been hoodwinked?

Juan Conatz

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on February 15, 2017

I don't know what you're talking about. Someone said that the person is on hiatus while they are in an officer position in a business union and I think that's sensible. Wasn't making any "criticism" of SolFed.

Fall Back

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fall Back on February 15, 2017

Ragnar and Lugius demonstrating perfectly in 2 posts what an embarrassing mess both sides on this conflict are tbh.

Good job, keep it up.

the button

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by the button on February 15, 2017

Fall Back

Ragnar and Lugius demonstrating perfectly in 2 posts what an embarrassing mess both sides on this conflict are tbh.

Good job, keep it up.

Obligatory IS THAT THE OFFICIAL SOLFED POSITION? post.

Ragnar

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on February 15, 2017

I'm just trying to understand because allowing double membership leaves someone on hiatus and may have a simple mechanism of not allowing officers for example in SF or IWW. It may not yet understand British trade union legislation, but then in what contexts does it serve dual membership?
Maybe I should write it in another post.

Rob Ray

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Rob Ray on February 15, 2017

In Britain there's an "official" roster which you have to sign up to before you're allowed to formally negotiate with bosses, gain legal protections while striking etc. SolFed doesn't subscribe to that roster, but the RMT (for example) does, and has a legal team to consult, meaning that you'll often find situations where people are members of SolFed and also an "official" union active in their workplace.

These official unions are usually what's known as "business" unions, ie. unions which structurally don't consider themselves as based in class conflict but which treat unions as a business, offering legal support, professional negotiation services, industry training courses and suchlike in exchange for people's dues. They have a lot of money and assets which they jealously guard, particularly from the consequences of militant action (official unions can very easily fall foul of the trade union laws and are fined if that happens).

To briefly summarise SF's view, becoming a paid officer in such a union takes you away from the shop floor and represents a potential conflict of interest both when trying to organise (as your wage depends on maintaining the business union's interests rather than the workers') and in cases where, for example, your business union employer's approach might clash directly with the more militant tactics espoused by SF.

That's not to say all full-timers are going to sell out their militancy, and I doubt Andy will, but structurally SF feels it is a better plan to suspend membership in other unions when an officer position is held. Yes it deprives us temporarily of an experienced militant, but it also means that when people come to us and say "the branch secretary's fucking us over" there's no question of whose side we're on.

Ragnar

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on February 16, 2017

Cool, now I can understund better what happend about this point- Thanks Rob ;)

melenas

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on February 16, 2017

Lugius

http://newworldinourhearts.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/more-purges-and-evictions-or-change-in.html?view=timeslide

It looks as if the the tissue of falsehoods propagated by the CNT Confederal Committee is coming apart at the seams.

It seems to me that the membership of the CNT were mislead with regard to the nature of the motion to 're-found' the IWA. And now there is a proposal to recall the Confederal Committee.

http://newworldinourhearts.blogspot.com.au/2017/01/cnt-motion-to-recall-secretariat-sends.html?view=timeslide

Do the ends justify the means or do the means determine the ends?

I see Juan Conatz is applying a double standard; attacking the IWA for 'ideological rigidity' while at the same time making an oblique criticism of the SolFed on effectively the same basis.

How long before the comrades in the IWW realise they've been hoodwinked?

In July 2015 the secretariat of IWA was exchanging mails with some unions in Spain that are not CNT and translating to english some texts that were provide to the IWA secretariat by this unions, and then this unions sent the translation made by IWA secretariat to the IWA sections.

So the secretariat of IWA expel (suspend) to FAU on September 2014 because they were having contacts with a none IWA union in a country where there is a IWA section and some months later the secretariat of IWA was having contacts with none IWA group in Spain where IWA had a section, CNT.

"Estos son mis principios, si no le gustan tengo otros" Groucho Marx

This information appear in the plenary minutes of the levante group.

syndicalist

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on February 16, 2017

the secretariat of IWA was having contacts with none IWA group in Spain where IWA had a section, CNT.

Weren't these "expelled" CNT-AIT unions (by the non-IWA "CNT") the IWA was in contact with?

melenas

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on February 16, 2017

syndicalist

the secretariat of IWA was having contacts with none IWA group in Spain where IWA had a section, CNT.

Weren't these "expelled" CNT-AIT unions (by the non-IWA "CNT") the IWA was in contact with?

Are the Levante group, to be more clear.

syndicalist

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on February 16, 2017

melenas

syndicalist

the secretariat of IWA was having contacts with none IWA group in Spain where IWA had a section, CNT.

Weren't these "expelled" CNT-AIT unions (by the non-IWA "CNT") the IWA was in contact with?

Are the Levante group, to be more clear.

Levante is CNT-AIT: https://levantecntait.wordpress.com/category/reestructuracion-cnt-ait/

melenas

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on February 16, 2017

syndicalist

melenas

syndicalist

the secretariat of IWA was having contacts with none IWA group in Spain where IWA had a section, CNT.

Weren't these "expelled" CNT-AIT unions (by the non-IWA "CNT") the IWA was in contact with?

Are the Levante group, to be more clear.

Levante is CNT-AIT: https://levantecntait.wordpress.com/category/reestructuracion-cnt-ait/

In the same minutes they accept that they are not CNT because they are out of CNT and if they go to the court they will loose. But they say they will continue calling them selves CNT.

If makes you happy to call them like this nice for you, but even that they are not a IWA section, they were not a IWA section and the secretariat of IWA was exchanging mails with them and also translating their texts to English so they can send them to the sections of IWA when the real CNT was section of IWA.

syndicalist

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on February 16, 2017

None of this makes me happy, actually. But you guys left, gave the name of the IWA up, others in Sain are taking it up and thats the lousy situation.

melenas

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on February 16, 2017

syndicalist

None of this makes me happy, actually. But you guys left, gave the name of the IWA up, others in Sain are taking it up and thats the lousy situation.

CNT is not using the name of IWA since was expelled from iwa, is not about that and you know it. is about the movements of a liar that was acting against sections of IWA. But look like that is something that doesn't mater for you, the fact that in summer 2015 the secretariat of IWA was translating a text to a group that was usurping the name to a section and to IWA, that for you is not important.

The problem is that the members of CNT were seeing strange movement of IWA secretariat and now we have access to some communications and minutes that prove that the secretariat was acting against some sections doing exactly the same that they acuse FAU to do, with the big diference that FAU never hide it, and IWA secretariat did it. The secretariat was hiding this things to the sections.

I think that CNT members have the right to be furious, and to defend their organization from the attacks of some authoritarian people.

CNT stopped using the IWA name after was expelled, and made an internal communication explaining to the unions that we can´t use any more the IWA name because we are not any more a section of it. We are preparing a new website, so soon or late also the website will be updated.

OliverTwister

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on February 17, 2017

syndicalist

the secretariat of IWA was having contacts with none IWA group in Spain where IWA had a section, CNT.

Weren't these "expelled" CNT-AIT unions (by the non-IWA "CNT") the IWA was in contact with?

In July 2015 there was only one CNT-AIT. Any expelled unions were therefore not in the IWA.

syndicalist

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on February 17, 2017

That's your opinion. Not that of those expelled.
And I really don't care much for your opinion

robot

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by robot on February 17, 2017

FAUs point of view concerning the recent developments in- and outside the IWA has recently been translated into English
.

Salvoechea

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on February 17, 2017

To clarify what melenas is saying. Recently in CNT millieu, has been circulated an evidence about some dark manouvres between Akai and a few CNT members. From those papers it gives light to what these people have been doing since 2009. It makes clear that in 2009 began a boycott against the 10th Congress of Cordoba because they realised they'd lose it. Some unions used the congress to protest against the rest, raising complains of authoritarism and so on.

So, these people managed to join some others in other CNT unions (Levante, Galicia, Andalusia, etc) to create a suitable climate for taking the Organisation. A kind of "Doctrine of Shock", a big internal crisis to seize the committees. They failed, and as a result some unions have been expelled (for not paying dues, for insulting other unions, so on) and some others left. In the Congress of Zaragoza, 2015, those unions called for a boycott and to not sending reps to it.

A part from this. What I've said before is what Benissa Congress is forming: an anarchist federation and not a union.

OliverTwister

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on February 17, 2017

syndicalist

That's your opinion. Not that of those expelled.
And I really don't care much for your opinion

No, it isn't my opinion. Even if you start from the decision which the CNT made in their Congress of December 2015 and say that they were "no longer in the IWA" or something from that point onwards - even then, in July 2015 they were still a section.

You may not like it, but it's not my "opinion". It's a fact that any reasonable onlooker would agree with.

Honestly, from the description it sounds very similar to the game Garcia Rua played with the Duluth section of WSA, except on a grander scale, and it didn't work.

akai

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by akai on February 17, 2017

Just to come in here, l have read the disgraceful report of the Stalinist-like investigative commission, which is a combination of science fiction and spying on emails of CNT Sections, past and present. This very much confirms our suspicions about the current leadership of the CNT and when l read the bunch of horseshit here and there, it's very clear that we are on the correct side. The amount of confabulation is amazing, apparently l was plotting with people, including ones l don't even know, to take over CNT from even before l was in lWA. Quite amazing stuff, although amateurish. All l can say is apparently useful idiots are born everyday.

Rob Ray

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Rob Ray on February 17, 2017

People on both sides have acted like arseholes, and every time I read this sort of bollocks "waah you're a liar" "waah you're a Stalinist" I get a little bit closer to lobbying for SF to sack off the lot of you. Fucking hell this utterly undisciplined shambles of a thread full of opinionated, self-serving individual diatribes should have been put to bed months ago, but none of you fucking egomaniacs can stop scratching the scab.

militant-proletarian

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by militant-proletarian on February 17, 2017

akai

Just to come in here, l have read the disgraceful report of the Stalinist-like investigative commission, which is a combination of science fiction and spying on emails of CNT Sections, past and present. This very much confirms our suspicions about the current leadership of the CNT and when l read the bunch of horseshit here and there, it's very clear that we are on the correct side. The amount of confabulation is amazing, apparently l was plotting with people, including ones l don't even know, to take over CNT from even before l was in lWA. Quite amazing stuff, although amateurish. All l can say is apparently useful idiots are born everyday.

That's why you also have a "science fiction and spying" blog?

"Stalinist-like"? Funny, specially coming from someone who takes advantage of her position to expel unions and does whatever she likes...

Ragnar

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on February 18, 2017

Akai. The question is How and why are you reading the private CNT-Spain documentation? And later you said that is a "report of the Stalinist"...

syndicalist

7 years 1 month ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on February 18, 2017

OliverTwister

syndicalist

That's your opinion. Not that of those expelled.
And I really don't care much for your opinion

No, it isn't my opinion. Even if you start from the decision which the CNT made in their Congress of December 2015 and say that they were "no longer in the IWA" or something from that point onwards - even then, in July 2015 they were still a section.

You may not like it, but it's not my "opinion". It's a fact that any reasonable onlooker would agree with.

Honestly, from the description it sounds very similar to the game Garcia Rua played with the Duluth section of WSA, except on a grander scale, and it didn't work.

Trust me, you have no clue about the Rua antics.

Monaliz

7 years ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Monaliz on March 5, 2017

I dont know understand can hlep to me make see abaot what this is

Lugius

4 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Lugius on April 27, 2019

The CNT Catalunya have released a statement declaring they have re-affiliated with CNT-AIT.

http://ainfos.ca/ainfos76964.html?fbclid=IwAR39wKcMqHKdMDUsY9IGCzWEDvjGALH1ElYJzOtQNNStNJKsJ92bF_ZZx6g

This follows on from the expulsion of the Madrid Local Federation last December. My understanding is that most of the unions are also considering re-affiliating with the AIT.

Curiously, it appears one of the members of the expelled unions is the Secretary of CNT-CIT and CIT (ICL). If true, one wonders how one could remain Secretary.

What is left of CNT-CIT?

robot

4 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by robot on April 29, 2019

Lugius

The CNT Catalunya have released a statement declaring they have re-affiliated with CNT-AIT. (...) What is left of CNT-CIT?

Correct me, if I am wrong, but it seems this got nothing to do with the CNT at all. CNT Catalunya is a split from the CNT back from the 90th, wenn a couple of unions in Catalunya had been desfederated by the regional plenary and formed the so-called CNT Catalunya. The only somewhat bigger union was in Barcelona where they had their offices in Joaquin Costa, whereas the CNT had theirs in Duque de Medinaceli. In the beginning CNT Catalunya had some good comrades in their ranks, like for example Luís Andrés Edo. But over the decades they lost most of their membership and a couple of attempts to re-unite with the CNT failed. Edo had a very realistic view on the situation when he told me in 1997 „if we do not manage to get back into the CNT within the next five years, we are done!".

To me it appears somewhat weired, that the now tiny CNT Catalunya joins in with the small faction of the CNT that claims to be CNT-IWA, because some of the folks that were behind the desfederation of the CNT Catalunya and behind FAIs enthronement of JJ.LL. as secretary general in Catalunya and later of the confederation (one of the main reasons for the ugly split in Catalunya) are still puppet masters within the CNT-IWA.

But anyhow this episode appears little more than a footnote within the history of the AS movement in Spain.

Ragnar

4 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Ragnar on April 29, 2019

"CNT Catalunya" = "CNT Joaquin Costa or Los Apaches" that btw lost almost all their members, switching to the CNT.
Joaquin Costa (not more than 10 people right now) join the section of Spain-AIT

Madrid, right now have CNT who has regained the same membership as before the expelled FL, at least, and that's happened because they having put focus in the industrial action (Transport, Graphic, Artist, Education, Hospitality...).
The CNT is surely going through more than six thousand workers right now. I hope ASF one day be much bigger than CNT and show as how is anarchosyndicalist industrial action.

syndicalist

4 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on May 1, 2019

While I’m not a fan of the split in the IWA and formation of the CIT,
the above communique is less than clear.

Either way internationalist May Day greetings

Yepa

4 years 11 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Yepa on May 2, 2019

What is left of CNT-CIT?

Sorry Lugius, CNT is growing faster than ever, even in Madrid, after the defederation of some of the unions CNT is as big as before (in just 5 months!!!) and they will finish this year doubling members.

I´ve been member of CNT since 90s, and it is now that I see future, I see strategy and plans. For first time I see my organization getting ready to face State and Capital, and I will see that with my own eyes. Because our struggle is not a game or a hobbie, people risk their lives and their children´s bread, our enemy has all the money in this world, all the weapons and all the power, we must be smarter than them.

Whoever is not willing to fight with us, shoulder with shoulder, better they move away.

Long live the social revolution!
Long live CNT!

Salvoechea

4 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Salvoechea on May 6, 2019

The new section of IWA in Catalonia, was expelled in 1993 because of a confrontation between them and the ruling section in that CNT, which was organised around FAI. In that years CNT had quite a lot membership in Catalonia, maybe around 1000 people (probably not so many but this was what they said) and the minority expelled the majority. So, in the next two decades there were two CNTs: CNT-AIT Medinaceli and CNT Joaquín Costa, due to their location. Joaquín Costa was quite oriented to social activism (and not so much to labour syndicalism), while the other one suffered an important crisis after the scission, back in 90s.

With the new century CNT Medinaceli was back in live and began to grow, attracting a new batch of young anarchists. And then the Joaquin Costa union of L'Hospitalet moved to CNT-AIT. This was a big change, as this was the biggest union in Joaquin Costa, which was losing most of its membership during the years. CNT Medinaceli (after maybe 2005) was totally oriented to union activism, and managed to grow to some 100 members.

In 2010, both CNTs organized together the Centenary of CNT (founded in 1910). This led the hope of a reunification. However this logic movement was boycotted by the sector of old guys inside CNT Joaquin Costa. They did'nt want to lose their power. And all the young people changed to Medinaceli. Also the union in El Prat. This left Joaquin Costa with no visible activity after 2011. The only thing they do is to organise the May Day, with other anarchist collectives, like this year. Most of the year they do live of a cultural collective with no workplace conflicts.

So, if CNT Joaquin Costa joins IWA is a recognision of their defeat. They join an organisation led by CNT Granada which was one of the hardest one against them.

melenas

4 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by melenas on May 11, 2019

There are some things that surprise me about this:

One is that the most aggressive unions against CNT Joaquin Costa were the unions that are now the Spanish IWA section. There was big criticism to organize the 100 anniversary of CNT with them and also to the possibility of reunification. The argument they were giving was that this unions sign with a company accepting workers dismissals.

The other thing is that CNT Joaquin Costa sign a pact with the Catalan government recognizing the Catalan government as the owner of the CNT Historical patrimony that was in General Archive of the Spanish Civil War in Salamanca. Basically the Archive of the dictatorship created with the theft to CNT and other organizations. In resume the dictatorship stole to CNT and this people gave this patrimony to the Catalan government.

¿What make this two groups to suddenly forget all this and join? In my point of view is the pact of the loosers. IWA recognize that has nothing more to do in Cataluña than merge with Joaquin Costa, 4 unions without syndicalist action that are not even able to make a demonstration in Barcelona for the first of May. if you follow their website you will see that there are no news about syndicalist action in the last years. Joaquin Costa keep rolling in Catalunya because they know that if join CNT they are a few with out capacity to manipulate the union in their own interest.

Have in mind that IWA in Spain only organize for the 1 of may this year 3 demonstrations (Madrid, Alicante and Granada) and 2 meetings (Cadiz and Barcelona). And no one had a big quantity of people.

syndicalist

4 years 10 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by syndicalist on May 21, 2019

That was my impression that it was the former Joaquin Costa and not the CIT affiliate