CNT proposes reorganization of IWA

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akai
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Apr 7 2016 13:18

Now. I can get some laughs at trolls telling my friend was was fired more than once for union activity and is his spent the last seven or eight years fighting charges and suits for activity that people in the IWA don't know this stuff. This is reaaly gross. At least we know about people repressed in Spain and show solidarity where we can . This is all very typical of the problem.

We didn't make a big deal about it since its normal that thus goes on but those who read Polish can find the article from the mainstream press on our FB.

melenas
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Apr 7 2016 13:26
akai wrote:
Now. I can get some laughs at trolls telling my friend was was fired more than once for union activity and is his spent the last seven or eight years fighting charges and suits for activity that people in the IWA don't know this stuff. This is reaaly gross. At least we know about people repressed in Spain and show solidarity where we can . This is all very typical of the problem.

We didn't make a big deal about it since its normal that thus goes on but those who read Polish can find the article from the mainstream press on our FB.

Did you find out where says that CNT have payment positions as you said?

try to don´t lie about CNT this could bee a nice first step.

Yepa
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Apr 7 2016 13:46
Quote:
Now. I can get some laughs at trolls telling my friend was was fired more than once for union activity and is his spent the last seven or eight years fighting charges and suits for activity that people in the IWA don't know this stuff. This is reaaly gross. At least we know about people repressed in Spain and show solidarity where we can . This is all very typical of the problem.

We didn't make a big deal about it since its normal that thus goes on but those who read Polish can find the article from the mainstream press on our FB.

We have hundres of cases, don´t you understand that you or us are not better? we just play at another scale, we have 300 ZSPs inside CNT, what happens to you hapens to us 300 more times.

You just keep posting as you had no responsibility with your position. IWA General Secretary is a big thing, too big for you. You will never see a CNT General Secretary going down to the forums muds, that´s the diference, thats a luxury somebody representing thounsands can´t afford, you can´t get provoked, you must say 100% accurate information and being totally resonable, you must say only the decisions your organiation has taken by consensus, even if you are not agree, it must look like yes. Thats comes with the position, and it is something you don´t understand. You are too pasionate, you defend what you think is right at any cost, even at IWA´s cpst, but you are mistaken, you are not cautious and you have no self-criticism at all. You have been told an history of good guys and bad guys when reallity is far away from that, when facts show a diferent thing.
You are the worst secretary of all times, with Rata the thief permission, he is second.

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 13:55

So it's a size thing. Very freudian and telling about this entire situation.

It's funny that someone here thinks I cannot trust what I have seen with my own eyes and trust people I have met and discussed with and I have to trust an anonymous poster on a libcom forum.

melenas
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Apr 7 2016 14:05
zaczek wrote:
So it's a size thing. Very freudian and telling about this entire situation.

It's funny that someone here thinks I cannot trust what I have seen with my own eyes and trust people I have met and discussed with and I have to trust an anonymous poster on a libcom forum.

Perfect, i told you, continue with your lies about CNT, but then don´t be surprised if in CNT the people thinks what thinks about your attitude and the attitude of complete sections of IWA.

if your are not able to see the difference between a small organization some dozens of workers and a local union of hundreds ...

but please don´t say to as that most democratic organization is one where less than 10% of the members has the control, because everybody know how is call when a minority decided over a huge majority.

Yepa
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Apr 7 2016 14:12

Yes, yes zaczek I also have a cousin that says that homeopathy and reiki works for him and there is no scientific proof that can convice him that that´s just a way to cheat idiots.

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 14:11

Sure, everybody knows that the most democratic organization is one in which 3/4 of the sections have no voting rights. wink

Yepa
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Apr 7 2016 14:18

I think all points have been made clear... I would like to said if was a pleasure, but it wasn´t. We leave IWA, so all happy, CNT happy, ZSP & IWA secretary are happy, they don´t care that 90% of the members leave so all happy!!! hope we don´t meet again!

There is no please CNT think about it twice, or come on you should stay... nothing... just the comon crap.... so Bye bye.

MT
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Apr 7 2016 14:24
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There is no please CNT think about it twice, or come on you should stay... nothing... just the comon crap.... so Bye bye.

this is very indicative of the mindset of many people in CNT. of their self-perception and self-importance. it dates way back than this current situation.

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militant-proletarian
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Apr 7 2016 14:28

No problem, the situation now is quite clear. CNT has sent an open proposal to build together a new IWA. If akai, the Big Leader, and her lackeys know better the situation in Spain and want to believe what their comrades say, please go with all the expelled groups and take your IWA corpse for yourselves. Nobody is forced to be with us. We'll go on with our work in order to build a strong International with stable unions.

There are two clear blocks: one wants to grow and become a real reference for the working class around the world, without purity or stuff like that, by doing unionism and developing strategies and methodologies against the complex capitalist structure; the other one wants to grow somehow by picketing or going around with flags, but only with an anarcho-card validated by the Glorious Committee of the Anarchist Purity, otherwise you're not welcome and you're a reformist who likely look for becoming a full-paid secretary.

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 14:32

Yes, let us analyze the CNT executive mindset. The executives say: "Ok, we give you this proposal: You will have no voting rights, we will decide everything, but you should be happy you are with us, even though we don't care about you and we sabotage anything you were trying to do."

So, no. We will not say "please stay". Luckily, there are enough sections in Spain that have been defederated by the CNT bureaucracy for not obeying their authoritarian line, so a new legitimate CNT-AIT section will be back in no time, while you will be toying with an authoritarian CGT type of project. Good luck with that.

Yepa
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Apr 7 2016 14:38

Oooh Zaczek it makes me so happy to know the big surprise you will find when you realize how little are the groups expelled for not paying or for being less than 5 members for years.... that´s the best think of all and keeps a smile in my face while typing.

You really believed a lot of lies

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militant-proletarian
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Apr 7 2016 14:37
zaczek wrote:
Melenas, as much as you like to discuss about IWA internals here, the question was about the political differences. And it is clear as anything that the political difference is about proportional voting (favored by Troika) and equal section voting (favored by everyone else). The Troika is blind to the differences between countries where the anarchosyndicalist tradition either never existed or was terminally broken by the II WW and the stalinist period, and countries where this tradition was not broken. A difference that has a profound impact on the possibilities to develop organizations of size.

Quite a stupid blindness, I would say.

Do you know who Franco was? Hitler? Don't be a victim. The whole working class was smashed after the WWII, so this is not a excuse to justify that some IWA groups are tiny. CNT, USI and FAU have been growing for few years, why is that? Just think about it, maybe the silly anarcho-pure view was a burden and counter-productive.

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 14:37

Yepa: Freud, again. Keep on beating it...

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 14:38
militant-proletarian wrote:
Do you know who Franco was? Hitler? Don't be a victim. The whole working class was smashed after the WWII, so this is not a excuse to justify that some IWA groups are tiny. CNT, USI and FAU have been growing for few years, why is that? Just think about it, maybe the silly anarcho-pure view was a burden and counter-productive.

So you haven't heard about this Western Europe/Eastern Europe Iron Curtain kind of thing?

Yepa
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Apr 7 2016 14:43

Zaczek as an anarchist I follow scientific proof, and Freud is a pseudo-scientism. Freud is a fraud, you should update your sources, all of them.

melenas
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Apr 7 2016 14:43
zaczek wrote:
Sure, everybody knows that the most democratic organization is one in which 3/4 of the sections have no voting rights. ;)

You can join 7 or 8 sections and have one vote.

when I first join CNT i thought that in other countries the sections were strong and that we were thousands and thousands of people. what was my surprise when i start to learn about the sections and i see the reality. Was hard, was hard to she that the IWA was only in internet, that groups of a few dozens, in the best situation, were saying what we are reading here now. However you leave clear your position, vertical control of section by secretariats and continuous interference in the internal work of other sections.

good luck.

PD: CNT didn´t leave IWA, so don´t forget that all the lies you publish here (you, AKAI secretari of IWA and others) is about a organic section of IWA.

melenas
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Apr 7 2016 14:49
zaczek wrote:
militant-proletarian wrote:
Do you know who Franco was? Hitler? Don't be a victim. The whole working class was smashed after the WWII, so this is not a excuse to justify that some IWA groups are tiny. CNT, USI and FAU have been growing for few years, why is that? Just think about it, maybe the silly anarcho-pure view was a burden and counter-productive.

So you haven't heard about this Western Europe/Eastern Europe Iron Curtain kind of thing?

Spain is the second country in the world with more people buried in mass grave only behind Camboya.

but please do not try to make a competition about repression, it was only a note to make you see that spain had had a strong repression that look like some people forgot it.

melenas
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Apr 7 2016 14:51
zaczek wrote:
Yes, let us analyze the CNT executive mindset. The executives say: "Ok, we give you this proposal: You will have no voting rights, we will decide everything, but you should be happy you are with us, even though we don't care about you and we sabotage anything you were trying to do."

So, no. We will not say "please stay". Luckily, there are enough sections in Spain that have been defederated by the CNT bureaucracy for not obeying their authoritarian line, so a new legitimate CNT-AIT section will be back in no time, while you will be toying with an authoritarian CGT type of project. Good luck with that.

jajajajaja

is true they lie you a lot, good luck.

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militant-proletarian
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Apr 7 2016 14:57
zaczek wrote:
militant-proletarian wrote:
Do you know who Franco was? Hitler? Don't be a victim. The whole working class was smashed after the WWII, so this is not a excuse to justify that some IWA groups are tiny. CNT, USI and FAU have been growing for few years, why is that? Just think about it, maybe the silly anarcho-pure view was a burden and counter-productive.

So you haven't heard about this Western Europe/Eastern Europe Iron Curtain kind of thing?

Maybe you can't read, Franco ruled for 40 years until the end of 70's, but the CNT really started to grow since the end of 2000's. So I'm not saying it's easy to grow, but something is wrong when you cannot get members. If we're not able to get stronger with more members for years, surely it's our fault and gotta change the strategy. "Why the workers don't join our union? We're so cool... The workers are pretty declassed... we know the truth, wank wank..." is the same old story that I've heard for decades.

PS: As the comrade said, it's not a competition about repression. So please keep your childish comments for yourself

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 15:08

Militant-proletarian:

Yes, and the social history of a country does not matter. grin It does not matter that Spain has a history of a social revolution and Poland only has a history of nationalist uprisings. It has no impact whatsoever. No impact at all that all strains of left or worker ideas have been discredited in public imagination because of stalinist history. And no impact whatsoever that anticapitalism was seen as opposition in Western Europe and as part of the system in Eastern Europe.
Your ignorance is really impressive!

So what to do? Go for the masses and jump on the nationalist bandwagon? Nope, we can't do it. But some people will do it and I'm sure you will support them.

melenas
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Apr 7 2016 15:12
zaczek wrote:
Militant-proletarian:

So what to do? Go for the masses and jump on the nationalist bandwagon? Nope, we can't do it. But some people will do it and I'm sure you will support them.

Do not confuse your wishes with the reality.

And don´t forget that you are already giving support to lies. here and now.

akai
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Apr 7 2016 17:47

What a circus.

Jim, you seen quite inspired by this topic. While l don't agree with some things you write, you have asked questions l will answer.

You ask about whether or not a commission was set up in the FAU situation and wonder why or why not. Without going into all the details, the situation with FAU related to their international plans from their Congress. Other issues were there prior to that, there was some correspondence, etc. and some situations flared up after the lWA Congress, when delegates were angry that CNT reform did not pass and some started making plans, discussing leaving, etc. The main documents to be considered thus came from FAU themselves and also their decisions from their last Congress are there for all to read and consider. We are certain that these are authentic documents and have been submitted by them and are transparent.

Other documents, for example a report saying what the situation in Poland is, was compiled from online sources of said other organization which could be verified by all. The documents and even the translation was verified by FAU so they do not doubt the authenticity.

Since l think nobody doubts the authenticity of these things, the question was not to gather information and check facts, but to look at the facts and positions presented and interpret.

Commissions should serve another situation: for example, in the case you mentioned, we are asked by one side of the split to do this and present the material for assessment.

So l hope that explanation was clear enough.

About your theory that the lWA will split into unions and not unions – you may have your definition of a union that does not agree with mine, but l do not think this is exactly the divide. My union is a union which will not be in that split faction. Other organizations which have some union activity, albeit it sometimes modest, or sometimes they want to call themselves an „initiative”, may do this or that – l don't know. But you can see which way it will probably go.

I can say more about unions and union activity another time. I am not avoiding discussions but actually, it is a busy time for my union and l am not gonna jerk real working struggles around to spend hours discussing „the class” or whatever.

To answer one of your questions, Jim: currently there are 5 or 6 sections with more than 100 people, although l say 5 or 6 because the status is not clear for the last – we are waiting on their latest dues and l think they will be under 100 this time. That said, from these, not all have paid for their members. For 2 years now my section is the largest dues paying section – since our contributions exceeded both CNTE and USl put together. That's not because they are smaller than us.

Dues problems with the CNTE go back since 2010. lt is not related to the FAU situation, it is related to the ideas of CNTE. Recently they are not in good standing – in other words, they haven't paid their dues for a couple of years. It is not the first time, but in the past, unions of the CNTE managed to get the Treasurer to pass their money on.

In some organizations, including the CNTE, the Treasurer or Secretary is allowed, after the elapse of a certain time, to remove an organization from the list of entitlement to vote.

In the lWA, this was not regulated exactly before. The ZSP was quite distraught at some lack of regulations and proposed that the Secretary not be able to set dues discounts – but it should be done by Sections and that if any organizations are not in good standing, that the disaffiliation not be autonomatic, but go to Congress. The question of the affiliation is automatically put on the Congress agenda.

We think this is not only very normal in any organization but also fairer. Enough of that, the fact is, the question of CNT's affiliation comes up on the agenda in December – and the dues issue, as l said, comes from 2010, although they eventually paid a number of times.

For a reality check – a Section (CNT) which hasn't paid dues, before that lowered their dues, is coming to a Congress where their affiliation – a very serious matter – should be discussed. At the same time, they are coming to the same Congress which should discuss their situation with a proposal. That proposal is addressed to the other Sections, which are in good standing and generally adhere to the rules and it is like this: you should not be in the new lWA if you do not agree with us. It doesn't matter if you are a union or not – it matters if you agree with our vision. If you don't agree, too bad, we are making a refoundation with those what agree. (Doesn't matter if any of them are in bad standing either.)

So, that is basically the gist of it.

CNT feels justified in that and in 2010 sent their ideas which basically amount to if you pay more, you should have more voting weight. So of course Sections can think about philosophies of „democracy” or „libertarian communism” or postulates like „from each according to his needs”. Folks being not in the lWA can have fun discussing this and the implications of withholding dues as a method of protesting decisions, etc. But it is for us to decide whether we want to be a normal federation working in accordance with mutually agreed principles or some pathology where issues like this have become more commonplace.

However another thread in this was that when all CNT members pay their dues, part is automatically allocated to the lWA and the Treasurer needs to send this: this is a statutory obligation. And there were some years that unions of the CNT paid and were astounded to find out that the Treasurer did not send the money. So we receive complaints about this, not from any expelled unions, but the unions of the CNT. We could spend a lot of time making an investigation, but one fact is clear – the dues weren't paid.

It doesn't take any big investigation or commission, because it is again enough to read CNT's own organic documents and decisions and to decide about this at the Congress.

What else can l answer? Yes, the eternal questions of „bans” always come up. Members of the lWA who haven't familiarized themselves with a certain report can get it. There we see something interesting: FAU is told, by CNTE and USl that they will not be supported in the lWA if they have relations with CGT or USl-Roma.

Now, my assumption is that this is one of these behind the scenes agreements, you know, but the CNT trolls keep telling us that this doesn't happen and that the executives are actually delegates doing what thousands of cleaners have told them to do. So, maybe CNT decided that, maybe not. I will make no judgment.

Before some troll starts yelling about the lies, l am saying what is in the report and, given the accompanying docs and other things from FAU, l don't doubt this account, which was very thorough. But all affiliates can judge themselves.

FAU proudly tells us that they have never had relations with that other Spanish union … because CNT is its sister section.

OK, so some in the lWA are sister sections and are respected, some not. There is one attitude towards some, one towards others. It one case relations are vital for the class... but if we are talking of many times more workers, it is a matter of solidarity and friendship.

No probs, we are not big enough or sexy enough to earn this respect smile We should remember this is all for the greater good of the class and, well, we cannot put any Sections above the good of the class, if l understand what Jim says. I really disagree with this, in fact l find it nonsensical, especially given the facts, but later for that.

The lWA agreements don't talk about bans, but about working through the affiliates when making contacts, etc., in that country. Which would mean, for example, that you discuss it and with respect for the local situation, you find some way. Because, l don't know if people read what l said, but you know, many people in our organization have all sorts of contact with people in that. You know, we do not „ban” our own people. But our own people know which people are OK and which people are not and which situations can be OK and which can help.

Now, to peel away the layer of pretense, little of this has to do with class or revolution but more of a great imagination.

This great imagination is mostly a lot of hot air though. And we see the consequences. One of the CNT trolls just was talking about how he thought the lWA was like billions of workers and he is just so angry it is not and he is disappointed. I am afraid this comes from this big cock syndrome that is so persuasive which people doing a lot of bragging about their size and little reality. But... lWA doesn't do this, this is only a problem of lack of reliable information on the local levels.

I am disgusted that for the last 6 years l have to hear people insult my comrades who are not as developed in that way. (Cause some of them are very developed in others.) I have been suffering these windbags for a long time. Now personally, and every single comrade who has talked more to me will know, l am very NOT into anarchosyndicalism being a theoretical movement. For this reason, l always talk to people and really, when l think any organization could do something better to develop practical activity, l say what and how and l like to show how it could be possible. But this „you are not a union”, „you are insignificant stuff”... just ugly. And often pretentious.

This is another long story, but besides the very differing ideas on some organizational issues, it looks clear that there are very differing ideas on some other issues and this is a deep divide.

Now you can hear anonymous trolls tell you it is all a lie.

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militant-proletarian
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Apr 7 2016 18:26
zaczek wrote:
Militant-proletarian:

Yes, and the social history of a country does not matter. grin It does not matter that Spain has a history of a social revolution and Poland only has a history of nationalist uprisings. It has no impact whatsoever. No impact at all that all strains of left or worker ideas have been discredited in public imagination because of stalinist history. And no impact whatsoever that anticapitalism was seen as opposition in Western Europe and as part of the system in Eastern Europe.
Your ignorance is really impressive!

So what to do? Go for the masses and jump on the nationalist bandwagon? Nope, we can't do it. But some people will do it and I'm sure you will support them.

Yeah, right, I don't know why CNT is not making the Revolution now, as it seems revolutionary tradition is a natural thing that's in every Spaniard's veins. As a comrade said once, it seems that Bakunin was from Albacete. You know, in Spain most of people have no fucking clue about the CNT, social revolution or old battles, as there was something called dictatorship that killed or erased almost everything about this "tradition". The rest of your comments are just victim-like bullshit. I'm not talking about magic formulae for affiliation and of course I'm not so closed-minded to think that CNT is visionary and know how to do things. That's the CNT proposal, something to work TOGETHER, but you are on the defensive, 'cause you're no able to see far beyond what your leader says.

If we are an "union" or union wannabee with 5 members for 30 years, we're certainly doing something wrong. That's was the breaking that CNT faced only 7/8 years ago: are we an union which wants to fight against the capitalist structure by means of anarchosyndicalism? Or are we still sitting here discussing about commas in a document or looking for reformism anywhere (this is what your friends in Spain were actually doing for 20 years)?

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jura
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Apr 7 2016 19:52

So where's SolFed in all this?

Mark.
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Apr 7 2016 19:58

I hope this doesn't end up with IWA sections tearing themselves apart over which IWA to go with, along the lines of the fall out from the original CNT split.

zaczek
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Apr 7 2016 20:05

Historically, the CNT has a way of falling for reformism and recovering back again, so this is just one of their phases smile

no1
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Apr 7 2016 20:23
jura wrote:
So where's SolFed in all this?

At the last SolFed conference a comrade said the IWA situation feels a bit like walking in on your friend's family feud - everyone is angry and shouting at each other but you don't really understand what it's all about.

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Apr 7 2016 20:32
Mark. wrote:
I hope this doesn't end up with IWA sections tearing themselves apart over which IWA to go with, along the lines of the fall out from the original CNT split.

CNT split has nothing to do with this crap. Here we have an organization controlled by a minority which thinks this is a political maneuver agaist their anarcho-egoes. They are so "humble" that instead of fighting for getting more members and strengthening their sections, they prefer to go on with their mini social clubs waving flags and singing revolutionary songs. For fuck's sake, they are supposed to be unions, but they are nothing more than a bunch of jerks wanking off while thinking about the glorious era of social revolution.

Mark.
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Apr 7 2016 20:50
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CNT split has nothing to do with this crap.

Yes, fair enough. I was just wondering whether one inadvertent effect of all this may be internal strife in IWA sections that aren't clearly aligned with one side or the other. I witnessed this kind of thing after the CNT split and that's why it came to mind.