EKS dissolved itself and joined the ICC

164 posts / 0 new
Last post
mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 12 2009 15:37
EKS dissolved itself and joined the ICC

http://en.internationalism.org/icconline/2009/philippines-turkey

I hope and believe that this integration of both our organisation (EKS) and of Internationalismo comrades, into the ICC, will be a positive contribution to the development of Left Communism and class struggle worldwide.

The new Turkish section of the ICC will present a balance sheet of its 2 years long activity as soon as possible.

mikail

yoshomon
Offline
Joined: 19-06-07
Feb 12 2009 16:42

That's too bad. I think a wider diversity of voices would contribute a lot more.

morven
Offline
Joined: 21-05-07
Feb 12 2009 16:50

Well, I think it's great, welcome to the ICC comrades!

To Yoshomon: why would a 'wider diversity of voices' automatically contibute more than one really loud collective voice? 'Diversity' is what we've got now isn't? A lot of noise and no clarity?

For communism! Morven

mikus
Offline
Joined: 18-07-06
Feb 12 2009 16:53

I saw this coming.

Ex-temp
Offline
Joined: 12-01-09
Feb 12 2009 16:57

Yes, I think it's been coming for some time. I assume this means that now the people in EKS now believe in the ICCs interpretation of decadence, is this correct?

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 12 2009 18:41

many thanks Morven,

Yoshomon;

we are not democrats, are we? So I think, the thing we feel/felt the need of is not "diversity" but unity and clarity - at least for left communists-

the period that we are living through seems to be turning this need into a vital material necessity with huge political, military and economic crisis and increase-deepening in working class struggles. In that sense we are fully confident in our integration to ICC. Through our collective discussions we came into conclusion that we can still defend our disagreements on the basis of our platformatic aggreement within the organisation while intervening and struggling as a collective whole. In that sense we did not do something, by joining the ICC, which is not in direct continuity with the historical tradition of workers movement (best represented by communist left).

This is something which is still limited though. So as you yourself expressed in your article on Isreal-Hamas conflict, rather that contemplating on the historical developments maybe you should also start considering to materialise your internationalism by joining an internationalist organisation or by making your ciriticisms towards the existing ones clearer... I believe, both will be mostly valuable.

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 12 2009 17:09
Quote:
I assume this means that now the people in EKS now believe in the ICCs interpretation of decadence, is this correct?

actually we were already defending it laugh out loud

mikus
Offline
Joined: 18-07-06
Feb 12 2009 17:06

Not Devrim, though, correct? Does he now agree with the ICC?

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 12 2009 17:12
Quote:
Not Devrim, though, correct? Does he now agree with the ICC?

Actually comrade Devrim was the person who proposed to join ICC when some of us were still close to ICG's approach.

So... I believe the answer is... yes...

oisleep's picture
oisleep
Offline
Joined: 20-04-05
Feb 12 2009 17:14

how many people are in the EKS?

Mike Harman
Offline
Joined: 7-02-06
Feb 12 2009 17:18
mikail firtinaci wrote:

So... I believe the answer is... yes...

I asked him about it, and he said it wasn't necessary to agree entirely with their specific conception of decadence in order to join, I think more likely it's no.

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 12 2009 17:32

We are in agreement with the "specific conception of decadance" as it is defined in the ICC platform. I believe that what Devrim meant was this...

mikus
Offline
Joined: 18-07-06
Feb 12 2009 17:52
mikail firtinaci wrote:
Quote:
Not Devrim, though, correct? Does he now agree with the ICC?

Actually comrade Devrim was the person who proposed to join ICC when some of us were still close to ICG's approach.

So... I believe the answer is... yes...

I don't see how that's relevant, unless agreeing with their theory of decadence was a prerequisite for joining. Devrim has stated in the past that he didn't agree with it.

miles's picture
miles
Offline
Joined: 21-09-08
Feb 12 2009 17:53

Fantastic news. As in all these situations this is the culmination of a whole series of discussions and meetings, usually stretching over a number of years.

As we say in the article, we hope this will help to spread left communism to parts that we previously couldn't have imagined.

welcome to the ICC, comrades

miles

Quote:
I saw this coming.

Keep up the good work, resident sage grin

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 12 2009 18:28
Quote:
I don't see how that's relevant, unless agreeing with their theory of decadence was a prerequisite for joining. Devrim has stated in the past that he didn't agree with it.

If I am not a schizophrenic, and if I am a comrade of Devrim who hours on hours discussed on the theory of decadance with him, I can firmly say that comrade Devrim is as a member of ICC and is defending our platform and decadance principle in it. What he -as far as I can imagine- says might mean that a communist HAS TO defend SOME KIND OF A -and we know that there are basically two- decadance theory, irrespective of whichever it is. This means that a communist does not have to defend ICC (majority) view of "luxemburgist" view of decadance, in order to join even to ICC.

Anyway maybe he himself can clear this issue better than me.

mikus
Offline
Joined: 18-07-06
Feb 12 2009 19:59

I think it was just a slip or two on the part of ICC'ers.

There was a whole thread asking this question, wasn't there?

mikus
Offline
Joined: 18-07-06
Feb 12 2009 20:00

Mikhail, I believe you that he agrees. I'm wondering, however, if he has changed his mind, given that he said before that he didn't agree, or if he has decided that he never disagreed after all.

In other words, has Devrim changed his position on decadence, or has he come to think that his previous conception was always the same as the ICC's conception?

Devrim's picture
Devrim
Offline
Joined: 15-07-06
Feb 12 2009 23:04

There seems to be a little interest in my ideas about economic questions, which I personally find quite strange as it is a subject I rarely talk about.

So to clarify, to be a member of the ICC you have to be in agreement with its platform, which on the subject of decadence states:

Quote:
3. THE DECADENCE OF CAPITALISM

For the proletarian revolution to go beyond being a mere hope or historical potentiality or perspective and become a concrete possibility, it had to become an objective necessity for the development of humanity. This has in fact been the historic situation since the First World War: this war marked the end of the ascendant phase of the capitalist mode of production, a phase which began in the sixteenth century and which reached its zenith at the end of the nineteenth century. The new phase which followed was that of the decadence of capitalism.

As in all previous societies, the first phase of capitalism expressed the historically necessary character of its productive relations, that is to say their indispensable role in the expansion of society’s productive forces. The second phase, on the other hand, expressed the increasing transformation of these relations into a fetter on the development of the productive forces.

The decadence of capitalism is the product of the development of the internal contradictions inherent in the relations of capitalist production which can be summarised in the following way. Although commodities have existed in nearly all societies, the capitalist economy is the first to be fundamentally based on the production of commodities. Thus the existence of an ever-increasing market is one of the essential conditions for the development of capitalism. In particular, the realisation of the surplus value which comes from the exploitation of the working class is indispensable for the accumulation of capital which is the essential motor-force of the system. Contrary to what the idolaters of capital claim, capitalist production does not create automatically and at will the markets necessary for its growth. Capitalism developed in a non-capitalist world, and it was in this world that it found the outlets for its development. But by generalising its relations of production across the whole planet and by unifying the world market, capitalism reached a point where the outlets which allowed it to grow so powerfully in the nineteenth century became saturated. Moreover, the growing difficulty encountered by capital in finding a market for the realisation of surplus value accentuates the fall in the rate of profit, which results from the constant widening of the ratio between the value of the means of production and the value of the labour power which sets them in motion. From being a mere tendency, the fall in the rate of profit has become more and more concrete; this has become an added fetter on the process of capitalist accumulation and thus on the operation of the entire system.

Having unified and universalised commodity exchange, and in so doing made it possible for humanity to make an immense leap forward, capitalism has thus put on the agenda the disappearance of relations of production based on exchange. But as long as the proletariat has not undertaken the task of making them disappear, these relations of production maintain their existence and entangle humanity in a more and more monstrous series of contradictions.

The crisis of over-production, a characteristic expression of the contradictions of the capitalist mode of production but one which in the past, when the system was still healthy, constituted an essential spur for the expansion of the market, has today become a permanent crisis. The under-utilisation of capital’s productive apparatus has become permanent and capital has become incapable of extending its social domination, if only to keep pace with population growth. The only thing that capitalism can extend across the world today is absolute human misery which already is the lot of many backward countries.

In these conditions, competition between capitalist nations has become more and more implacable. Since 1914 imperialism, which has become the means of survival for every nation no matter how large or small, has plunged humanity into a hellish cycle of crisis - war - reconstruction - new crisis…, a cycle characterised by immense armaments production which has increasingly become the only sphere where capitalism applies scientific methods and a full utilisation of the productive forces. In the period of capitalist decadence, humanity is condemned to live through a permanent round of self-mutilation and destruction.

The physical poverty which grinds down the underdeveloped countries is echoed in the more advanced countries by an unprecedented dehumanisation of social relationships which is the result of the fact that capitalism is absolutely incapable of offering any future to humanity, other than one made up of more and more murderous wars and a more and more systematic, rational and scientific exploitation. As in all other decadent societies this has led to a growing decomposition of social institutions, of the dominant ideology, of moral values, of art forms and all the other cultural manifestations of capitalism. The development of ideologies like fascism and Stalinism express the triumph of barbarism in the absence of a revolutionary alternative.

Apart from some doubts about the phrasing of the first sentence, I do.

Mikus wrote:
In other words, has Devrim changed his position on decadence, or has he come to think that his previous conception was always the same as the ICC's conception?

Does that mean that I agree with everything ever written by the ICC on the question of decadence, absolutely not. I don't think that it is essential though.

Devrim

Leo
Offline
Joined: 16-07-06
Feb 12 2009 23:46

thanks to the comrades who welcomed and/or congratulated us.

i would have expected a similar fraternal response as well from comrades like yoshomon, mikus and other comrades to have done the same regardless of disagreements. almost all of the comrades who posted in this thread do defend the same internationalist positions that we do as far as i am aware of after all and i think our organization does deserve the solidarity of other internationalist comrades, just like these comrades deserve our solidarity. anyway, whatever...

on the point about decadence:

first of all EKS had adopted the ICC basic positions, including of course the part on decadence a long time ago and had been defending it ever since. even before that on the other hand, Devrim was the most insisting on the necessary of having an understating of decadence of capitalism in order to be a left communist.

secondly within the process of discussion of the ICC platform, all the comrades who now make the section of the ICC in Turkey reached a collective clarity on what the positions were and what they defined as well as an agreement on them, again including the issue of decadence. regardless of the individual opinions, knowledge or lack of knowledge, clarity and so forth of our comrades before this process, the clarity and agreement was reached through collective discussion.

also the platform being the defining aspect of the organization, different conceptions of the decadence theory can be and are held within the ICC. indeed if I am not mistaken ever since the formation of the ICC two different approaches, one majority upholding Luxemburg's analysis of saturation of markets and one putting more emphasis on the rate of profits to fall for example. the latest discussion on this question can be followed from the latest issues of International Review. in any case, there is room for all the difference of analysis within what is defined by our platform.

lastly a poster asked how many people we've got. well, we haven't got a lot.

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 13 2009 00:28
Quote:
well, we haven't got a lot.

If I were you I would say "küçüğüz ama bolşeviğiz" * grin

* an old turkish maoist slogan meaning "we are small but bolshevik"...

capricorn
Offline
Joined: 3-05-07
Feb 13 2009 06:16

Sorry, Leo, if you're bolsheviks I can't welcome you. Bolshevism is a dangerous anti-working class ideology.

internasyonalista
Offline
Joined: 2-06-07
Feb 13 2009 07:03

Being a new section of ICC here in the Philippines is a big challenge for us amidst the militarist and barabric suppression of the Philippine state as well as the hatred against us by the different leftist organizations here especially the armed maoist gang of CPP-NPA.

The establishment of new ICC sections in the Philippines and Turkey is a clear indication of the resurgence of class struggle around the world and the increasing numbers of new elements searching for real revolutionary alternative against the decadent and dying capitalism.

Demogorgon303's picture
Demogorgon303
Offline
Joined: 5-07-05
Feb 13 2009 08:20

I would like to add my welcome to the new sections of the ICC. I think its positive that a left communist organisation is growing and spreading its influence.

I don't get the "diversity of voices" argument. The EKS and Internasyonalista have joined the ICC because they agree with its fundamental positions after a long process of reflection and discussion. If you've reached this level of agreement, refusing to link up with other comrades who think the same way seems perverse.

In any case, joining an organisation doesn't mean there is no longer a diversity of opinion. I was invited to attend the Congress of the section in Britain last year and I can assure you there is no monolithism within that section of the ICC! Comrades disagreed on a number of issues but there was a will to militate together despite those disagreements and this is what is important in building a political presence within the working class.

capricorn
Offline
Joined: 3-05-07
Feb 13 2009 08:58
mikail firtinaci wrote:
we are not democrats, are we?

Yes, some of us are.

ernie
Offline
Joined: 19-04-06
Feb 13 2009 09:53

I agree with Leo, the comrades deserve the solidarity of their internationalist comrades. These comrades have made a tremendous effort to take up and defend internationalist positions in the circumstances that many of us have not experienced. Through joining the ICC they have sort to go beyond being separate groups to being part of an international organisation. No matter what other internationalist may think of the ICC, it is clear that it is an organisation that defends internationalism on an international level and the integration of the comrades in these two vital areas for the future world revolution means that this defence of internationalism has been taken to an other level.

nastyned
Offline
Joined: 30-09-03
Feb 13 2009 11:07

Well, well, now there's a surprise. I take it libcom will be deleting the EKS forum now.

mikail firtinaci's picture
mikail firtinaci
Offline
Joined: 16-12-06
Feb 13 2009 11:09
Quote:
mikail firtinaci wrote:

we are not democrats, are we?

Yes, some of us are.

I mean in the sense that bordiga/italian-left description of democracy. Anyway the left communists are not democrats neutral

jef costello's picture
jef costello
Offline
Joined: 9-02-06
Feb 13 2009 13:13

This has been coming for a while.
On a political level I thought that there were still some disagreements on decadence, but I haven't been in close contact with EKS members for a while so I am a bit behind.
I think it will be good for the ICC and the former EKS in many ways but, as I said to Leo, EKS is far too cool to join the ICC. I am still as convinced as ever of this position and will continue to defend it.

Leo
Offline
Joined: 16-07-06
Feb 13 2009 13:18
Quote:
Well, well, now there's a surprise. I take it libcom will be deleting the EKS forum now.

i'd say turning it into some sort of a turkish subforum of the middle east forum would be a better idea.

Quote:
Sorry, Leo, if you're bolsheviks I can't welcome you. Bolshevism is a dangerous anti-working class ideology.

jeez and they call us 'sectarian'.

in any case though, the ICC position on bolshevism is not that it's an anti-working class ideology, but a historical proletarian current which has positive aspects as well as negative aspects which are firmly criticized. it is well known that the ICC never was a self-proclaimed 'leninist' organization after all and was always opposed to all variants of all currents calling themselves 'leninists' and the label itself as well. it is also not a secret that the counter-revolution in Russia developed from within the party, and just as the left communists of the time we were always against the counter-revolution in Russia as well as all the anti-working class practices.

Mikail was referring to a common joke among small groups in Turkey "small but bolshevik". i have even heard anarchists say that about themselves once here.

Quote:
The EKS plan to join ICC was rumoured months ago, congrats, I guess, if thats what you're into.

haha i do love there being rumors about us. anyway though, it's not about what we are 'into', we don't need to be 'padded in the back', it is about the message, that of solidarity and in more general terms about whether there are fraternal relations between internationalists despite their disagreements on other questions or not.

anyway, thanks.

Alf's picture
Alf
Offline
Joined: 6-07-05
Feb 13 2009 14:41

I think it will be good for the ICC and the former EKS in many ways but, as I said to Leo, EKS is far too cool to join the ICC. I am still as convinced as ever of this position and will continue to defend it.

Good old Jef, style always comes before substance in Costello World. However, I think you should meet our Mexicans before deciding on a cool ratio.

To the comrades in Turkey : welcome aboard!

Leo
Offline
Joined: 16-07-06
Feb 13 2009 19:34
Quote:
This has been coming for a while.

well, you did have inside info after all.

Quote:
On a political level I thought that there were still some disagreements on decadence, but I haven't been in close contact with EKS members for a while so I am a bit behind.

yes there were with some comrades when you were around here, but those comrades clarified the issue during the process as well afterwards.

Quote:
I think it will be good for the ICC and the former EKS in many ways

thanks jef smile

Quote:
as I said to Leo, EKS is far too cool to join the ICC. I am still as convinced as ever of this position and will continue to defend it.

we shall then strive to make it so that you regard our organization today as cool as you regarded our former organization cool