German "anarchists" wage war against World Cup patriotism

138 posts / 0 new
Last post
Tojiah's picture
Tojiah
Offline
Joined: 2-10-06
Jul 12 2010 18:02
Angelus Novus wrote:
I think the argument of left apologists for Zionism, though, is that it would have remained a sectarian marginal movement if not for the Shoah.

The Shoah, as well as the Leninist and Stalinist purges, managed to destroy most of whatever anti-national competition Zionism had amongst world Jewry, that's true.

Samotnaf
Offline
Joined: 9-06-09
Jul 13 2010 04:24

Angelus Novus:

Quote:
I think the argument of left apologists for Zionism, though, is that it would have remained a sectarian marginal movement if not for the Shoah.

Agree with Tojiah and Khawaga about this - in fact don't understand what Angelus N is saying : it is essentially true that Zionism was a fairly marginal movement before the holocaust, regardless of whether you apologise for Zionism or not. Before the Shoah, the vast majority of Jews were either integrationist or communist/anarchist - revolutionary whateverist; as we all know, Zionism always accepted anti-semitism as inevitable, and was for the most part rejected or ignored by Jews in Europe. I don't disagree with Khawaga (post 119) but, apart from some of the Jewish rich, it only became the ideology of the relatively few poor amongst those fleeing pogroms before the holocaust. And even then, many of those who settled in Palestine, and certainly many of their children, were not at all Zionists - they often joined the CP or its youth version.

As for the contradiction involved in saying the Germans weren't "contrite" - well, maybe - but if you were meant to feel guilty for what a very brutal State did because you remained silent even though speaking out would have meant a particularly long drawn out unpleasant death, then I suspect contrition would have seemed a little artificial (I'm not talking about those who postitively supported Hitler, but even among the ruling class, they were a minority). And not all of them, including many of the ruling class, did remain silent: the bomb plotters, Wilhelm Canaris, all those who, like my dad, were able to leave the country as soon as Hitler came to power (and many had no means of fleeing). But if some of your sons had been starved to death as POWs, if you'd lost friends and family through saturation bombing, you might feel that the post-WWll denazification programme was a tad hypocritical - after all, did the Brits speak out against (and I'm repeating mysef) the brutality of the British Empire, even though speaking out would not have led them to be tortured and killed...? Yes, I know the 12 years of Hitler's rule were unprecedentedly sadistic and "irrational" even in capitalist terms etc. (but then is commodity-induced climate change "rational"...?), but trying to hierarchically inculcate a culture of guilt had nothing to do with recognition of this "madness" but more to do with creating as submissive a working class as under the Nazis (and we should remember that there were social movements of the German working class in 1936, partly inspired by Spain and France - not an easy thing to do).

Angelus Novus again:

Quote:
I mean, for fuck's sake, one major motivation for the 1968 activists in this country was precisely the fact that the issue of the war and Shoah in this country wasn't addressed publicly, while the perpetrator generation still comfortably held the reigns of power.

Yes , but isn't it a bit more complicated than this? I mean, the April '68 riots were against the Springer press, which was very pro-Israel, and the RAF, products of this period, acted in a totally anti-semitic manner. Plus the veneration of some of this generation for Mao, Ho Chi Minh or some other leftist mass murderer still had something of a veneration of The Leader, an attitude that they were (obviously rightly) disgusted with when it was a question of their parents/grandparents veneration for the Fuhrer. I don't think this generation really got to grips with how fucked over the German working class were after the defeat of the Spartakists, Versailles, and WWll; they often reduced it all to Reichian psychology (without ever looking to their own leadership-worship) and the vanguardist fantasy of the RAF of trying to provoke a State repression that "the workers" would be forced to revolt against was typical of the hierarchical mentality which the 68 generation never really broke with . Don't get me wrong - the political commune movement, the socialist patients collective, and other "marginal" initiatives were real contributions to attacking this society, but unlike in France, Italy, the UK, Spain, and loads of other countries, the "traditional" proletariat never asserted itself autonomously and it can't all be explained as being simply the conditioning of the Hitler veneration generation. In fact, it's probably more to do with social democracy's suffocating influence (and the social democrats often risked their lives opposing Hitler, without ever understanding how social democracy had contributed to his rise).

Again this is all veering off-topic - so, to get a little back to it. I can't understand this "let's not do anything that might alienate our potential allies like burning a symbol of nationalism" crap that comes from all those who think "alienating" those submissive to nationalism is a terrible "tactic". None of you have answered what I asked earlier:

Quote:
burning your own national flag has always been part of an amorphous opposition, but you can overvalorise it , just as you can be abstractly "correct" because "it'll alienate people" . Strikes, riots, etc. don't "alienate" those who identify with their objectively alienated situation in this world? "I hate those striking train drivers stopping me getting to work!", "I hate those molotov-wielding shop looters stopping me buying my Sunday roast!", "I hate those flag-burning bastards stopping me cheering my Deutschland uber alles!". Typical argument - "we might alienate our potential allies" - of those who have a semi-Leninist political other-directed mentality, those who want to win over the passive majority by not saying or doing anything that might put them off, by trying to be "perfect" all the time...
We live in an epoch where all the traditional leftist ideologies of pseudo-opposition have lost their power to attract those who consider themselves in rebellion against this world; anarchism, expressed by many of those who post on these forums, has replaced the various forms of Leninism as the ideological cover of those who want to represent struggle, who are not fighting for themselves. (this is not to put down all those who label themselves " anarchist", btw; just those who have stopped developing, and now consider it essentially up to others to rebel)

fingers malone's picture
fingers malone
Offline
Joined: 4-05-08
Jul 13 2010 06:39

It´s not off topic, it´s very interesting.

Farce's picture
Farce
Offline
Joined: 21-04-09
Jul 13 2010 17:35
Samotnaf wrote:
Angelus Novus again:
Quote:
I mean, for fuck's sake, one major motivation for the 1968 activists in this country was precisely the fact that the issue of the war and Shoah in this country wasn't addressed publicly, while the perpetrator generation still comfortably held the reigns of power.

Yes , but isn't it a bit more complicated than this? I mean, the April '68 riots were against the Springer press, which was very pro-Israel, and the RAF, products of this period, acted in a totally anti-semitic manner.

Also, it seems a bit odd that Angelus would so totally decry the idea that a tendency that was influential on the German left within the last few years might still have influence today, and then turn around and offer the social conditions of the 1960s as an illustration of what contemporary German society looks like.

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jul 17 2010 21:37

So, in case anybody still cares, finally some definitive proof that these were not Anti-Germans, but rather run-of-the-mill Anti-Imperialist nitwits. From an article in the latest Jungle World, concerning a German-Lebanese guy harassed by the Autonomen to take down his flag:

Quote:
In die Zeit Youssef Bassal says that an Autonomist explained to him that "we should instead hang up a Palestinian flag." Your friend the foreigner, a projection surface for anti-imperialist leftists.

So the flag-snatchers are racially condescending assholes, but par for the course for Anti-Imperialists: German flag baaaad, but the cute little Lebanese should of course hang up a Palestinian one.

And with that, I'm out of this thread.

John1
Offline
Joined: 14-06-09
Jul 18 2010 15:00
Samotnaf wrote:
Yes , but isn't it a bit more complicated than this? I mean, the April '68 riots were against the Springer press, which was very pro-Israel, and the RAF, products of this period, acted in a totally anti-semitic manner.


Why do you say this about the RAF? Or are you saying this about the April '68 riots?

Farce's picture
Farce
Offline
Joined: 21-04-09
Jul 18 2010 20:50
Richard wrote:
Samotnaf wrote:
Yes , but isn't it a bit more complicated than this? I mean, the April '68 riots were against the Springer press, which was very pro-Israel, and the RAF, products of this period, acted in a totally anti-semitic manner.


Why do you say this about the RAF? Or are you saying this about the April '68 riots?

It's really hard to find anything about it online, but it's definitely the case that some German leftists bombed a synagogue on the anniversary of Kristallnacht in 1969 to protest against imperialism. No-one was injured, but it's still completely, stunningly fuckingly indefensible.
Also, the "Revolutionary Cells" were involved in this shit.

Quote:
A week earlier, on June 27, an Air France plane with 300 passengers was hijacked by Palestinian terrorists and flown to Entebbe, near Kampala, the capital of Uganda. Shortly after landing, all non-Jewish passengers were released.
888's picture
888
Offline
Joined: 30-09-03
Jul 18 2010 21:17

I thought the RAF separated Jewish and non-Jewish hsotages on some plane they hijacked with the PFLP and were going to shoot the Jews first.

John1
Offline
Joined: 14-06-09
Jul 18 2010 21:28
Farce wrote:
Richard wrote:
Samotnaf wrote:
Yes , but isn't it a bit more complicated than this? I mean, the April '68 riots were against the Springer press, which was very pro-Israel, and the RAF, products of this period, acted in a totally anti-semitic manner.


Why do you say this about the RAF? Or are you saying this about the April '68 riots?

It's really hard to find anything about it online, but it's definitely the case that some German leftists bombed a synagogue on the anniversary of Kristallnacht in 1969 to protest against imperialism. No-one was injured, but it's still completely, stunningly fuckingly indefensible.
Also, the "Revolutionary Cells" were involved in this shit.

Quote:
A week earlier, on June 27, an Air France plane with 300 passengers was hijacked by Palestinian terrorists and flown to Entebbe, near Kampala, the capital of Uganda. Shortly after landing, all non-Jewish passengers were released.

I see.

While I was reading about Uganda I came across this fellow Apolo Nsibambi
A puppet you reckon? Nice touch with the no political parties rule.

Lumpen's picture
Lumpen
Offline
Joined: 11-02-08
Jul 19 2010 11:53

Thought you all might appreciate this image that's been doing the rounds.

Boris Badenov
Offline
Joined: 25-08-08
Jul 19 2010 15:51
Angelus Novus wrote:

So the flag-snatchers are racially condescending assholes,

Which was the only point I wanted to make with the OP.

Quote:
but par for the course for Anti-Imperialists: German flag baaaad, but the cute little Lebanese should of course hang up a Palestinian one.

Ok, so they're "anti-imperialists" not "anti-Germans".

NotVerySpecial's picture
NotVerySpecial
Offline
Joined: 18-04-12
Jun 25 2012 14:28

Not all anarchists in Germany are of this variety, in fact, these 'anti-Deutsch' arseholes are not anarchists. They are isolated and marginalised within the left-wing scene in Germany something which left-wingers in Germany deny they (Anti-Deutsch) are even part of. There are shit loads of antifa stickers and posters denouncing anti-Deutsch. Anti-Deutsch are a tiny, tiny number of nutters who are not even worth paying any real attention to.

Besides, on this particular issue, I know some of the people who were tearing those flags down and they are not anti-Deutsch just anti-nationalist. They informed me that they themselves know of no 'anti-Deutsch' nutters in these actions.

NotVerySpecial's picture
NotVerySpecial
Offline
Joined: 18-04-12
Jun 25 2012 14:31

All nationalists are shite, no matter which nation state they are supporting!

Angelus Novus
Offline
Joined: 27-07-06
Jun 25 2012 15:02
NotVerySpecial wrote:
They are isolated and marginalised within the left-wing scene in Germany

Agreed. So why revive a thread that is two years old, then?!

Just let it go, dude. Let it go.

NotVerySpecial's picture
NotVerySpecial
Offline
Joined: 18-04-12
Jun 27 2012 16:36

lol, can't remember how I came across this thread but stumbled upon it and anything to do with the 'anti-Deutsch' fuckwits gets me interested. As I can't stand these people and put them on a par with the NPD, I just need to comment wherever I see them mentioned.