Harassment accusations thread gone?

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jolasmo
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Aug 3 2013 15:51
Harassment accusations thread gone?

Hi,

Has the thread posted here this morning regarding the accusations of serious harassment and rape apologism against a moderator of the Anarchist Memes fb page been taken down?

Can I ask why?

~J.

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Khawaga
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Aug 3 2013 17:35

Yeah, I am wondering about the same thing.

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libcom
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Aug 3 2013 18:30

Libcom had previously discussed this with the women involved as the issues had come up on the site. There was an agreement in place, which is probably superseded by the publication of the blog (survivor-led etc), but we need to check to make sure. We also need to discuss the usual no-real names policy, as there are circumstances where it doesn't apply, and this could be one of them.

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Khawaga
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Aug 4 2013 01:48

Fucking hell. Think about what you're defending Ites.

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GusselSprouts
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Aug 4 2013 01:49
jolasmo wrote:
Hi,

Has the thread posted here this morning regarding the accusations of serious harassment and rape apologism against a moderator of the Anarchist Memes fb page been taken down?

Can I ask why?

~J.

I was not the one who took it down, I won't be that person, but I will say a few things:

The person in question is not Anarchist Memes. They do not "run" the page. Keep in mind a lot of people have put a lot of effort into building that page into the largest identifiable Anarchist community active on the internet. You could say we all have a certain degree of "emotional investment".

The situation at hand came to my attention early in my involvement with @Memes. Because I was not directly involved and have never met any of the people (I lived thousands of miles from Australia) I chose to stay out of it, while making a well-intended note to keep them on a short leash and call out misogyny or behaviors previously identified. To this day, I have yet to see these behaviors. So that is all I can say about that account.

I do want to ask though, was this person in question ever offered a form of accountability and reparations processing? Sometimes I think some people do not believe in such. I do, and sometimes, I am amongst folks willing to organize with people having gone through such process, because I legitimately believe in them. Accountability and reparations are not for every situation, but they need to remain an option where they are.

From what I've gathered (I am admit to being in a position of relative ignorance) is that this situation is very very messy and the accused has a story as well, with some real dirt on some of the other folks. Things I would not allow if I was involved either.

One thing doesn't justify the other, but in my position I feel the only way to resolve this is to go through some sort of process and quit the never-ending internet war. For the sake of the ripple effect this is having on our community.

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 02:12

I am the person who wrote the blog post (though I didn't post it here). The agreement was not discussed with me though I was aware of it. I am happy for Libcom to discuss this issue among themselves and with the other women on Libcom who have complained. However I think it's quite unfair that you are allowing people to post stuff defending him while the blog post isn't allowed to be posted.

The person Ites is defending is himself. I don't know why he's talking in the third person.

The person from Anarchist Memes has never bothered to talk to anyone other than the perpetrator about what happened. The "dirt" he describes was probably gotten during the months of stalking, spying and bullying that was perpetrated against me. But frankly even if they can use that to discredit (victim blame... Just like all the crap that's been dug up about every survivor of abuse ever) me in some way, what about the other dozen or so people who've been harassed, sexually harassed or are still being harassed by this person? Can you discredit *all* of them? Can you discredit the Portland IWW branch that went through *all* the evidence, including some quite personal issues about me and the other woman involved, and found that he harassed us?

As for "accountability and reparations processes"... Those of us who've been harassed by him have not had any kind of justice. He has not admitted *any* wrong doing. Why is everyone so interested in ways to help him and none of his victims?

ANY kind of abuse can be described as being a "messy situation". This is a typical way of dismissing gendered abuse, along with calling it "personal" etc.

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 02:25

And before we go there why don't I just disclose all the fucking "dirt" on myself I can think of...
I get into arguments a lot.
I sometimes send angry emails.
I got into a lot of arguments with IWW members over issues around feminism and anti-racism
I posted all kinds of angry shit about x on facebook while he was harassing me... I even said I hoped he killed himself.
I'm an ex trot (OMG THE HORROR!)
I once sent a few of anonymous text messages to a (then) friend saying stuff like "hi this is god, behave yourself!". I thought it was a harmless joke but it scared the hell out of him.
I got really mad and defriended someone because they were saying they didn't want trots in the IWW and I thought it should be open to people of all political persuasions.
I then argued about this and other things with Ites for a couple of weeks before things went even more down hill.
I'm an ex whore.
I have bipolar 2 (as Ites has told the world).
I dunno what else there is... But I'm sure the whole world will continue to hear all about all the terrible terrible things I've done!

admin- no real names

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Dennis3434
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Aug 4 2013 02:47

So if the IWW already settled this case, what's up?

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 03:05

Both me and the other woman got bullied out of the IWW and victim blamed and Ites continues to harass people both in and outside the IWW.

And why should anyone be forced into "mediation" with someone who's abused them?

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 03:06

Since I'm being attacked here anyway, despite the post being taken down, I'm going to post it again. Libcom admins can remove it when they remove the other posts here.

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 03:06

Since I'm being attacked here anyway, despite the post being taken down, I'm going to post it again. Libcom admins can remove it when they remove the other posts here.

http://emateapot.wordpress.com/2013/08/01/naming-names/

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Dennis3434
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Aug 4 2013 03:38

OK, so what does AM have to do with anything? because we also have our internal guidelines, none of which were broken by Ben, I didn't even know about this in the first place, it seems none of us did. and if we will remove Ben as an admin, will you stop spamming the page?

jolasmo
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Aug 4 2013 04:18

There is some proper apologist shit going on in this thread right here.

ites wrote:
Can I ask why these accusations are being made at all considering Anarchist Memes is run by a collective of 22 people, none of whom have made any harassment complaints against the comrade named on the blog nor who even appear to have a problem with him?

Right, so that's a WHOLE 22 PEOPLE HE HASN'T YET HARASSED (or at least haven't said anything about it publicly). He should get some sort of fucking medal...

ites wrote:
Can I ask why this issue is being raised when the supposed issue of harassment was already dealt with with his expulsion from the IWW?

Well judging from caterpillar's blog, no, it hasn't been dealt with at all, since she herself was forced out of the organisation by her abuser and his allies, and continues to be harassed by them.

ites wrote:
Can I ask why rape apologism is a supposed issue now when it was not an issue during the IWW complaints process and why it is a supposed issue given the great amount of time and energy devoted to fighting it by the Anarchist Memes collective on the page?

Oh I'm sorry I forgot that GOOD FEMINISTS can't ever be abusive shitty dickholes, my mistake.

OH WAIT.

GusselSprouts wrote:
The person in question is not Anarchist Memes. They do not "run" the page. Keep in mind a lot of people have put a lot of effort into building that page into the largest identifiable Anarchist community active on the internet. You could say we all have a certain degree of "emotional investment".

The situation at hand came to my attention early in my involvement with @Memes. Because I was not directly involved and have never met any of the people (I lived thousands of miles from Australia) I chose to stay out of it, while making a well-intended note to keep them on a short leash and call out misogyny or behaviors previously identified. To this day, I have yet to see these behaviors. So that is all I can say about that account.

So because you were "not directly involved" and it all happened so very far away, that excuses just "staying out of" a serious allegation of harassment against a member of a project you were so invested in? Do you seriously think that is an acceptable response?

If Anarchist Memes is such an important project, you have to ask yourself what processes you are going to put in place, collectively, to ensure that these allegations are dealt with. If one of your comrades is accused of something this serious, you can't just write it off as none of your business. Just saying you'll keep an eye on someone and "call them out" if they start acting abusively when you're around is nowhere near good enough. What if they don't act that way when you're around? What if they do act abusively but you don't happen to notice? What if simply "calling them out" doesn't stop their behaviour?

If you do nothing about this, that cannot possibly end well for Anarchist Memes. It's reputation will be tarnished, permanently. I can understand being emotionally invested in a project, but if your cherished activist baby is threatened by allegations of serious misconduct against a member, you have two choices: try to squash the allegations (that is, apologism), or go through some sort of accountability process. I'm sorry to say the response from Anarchist Memes as a whole to this issue very much indicates the former approach.

~J.

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Aug 4 2013 04:22

I will say the same thing I said to Ben and the other AM admins, I am not interested in any dialogue around this that isn't about a solution. If parties that have been wronged by Ben want to see something realistic from him, I would like to know what that is.

As for the Portland IWW's appeal process, fuck that bureaucratic noise. As far as I am concerned, as much as I admire and support IWW, their processes are not Anarchist.

Anarchist Memes can have a accountability and reparation process, possibly overseen by Libcom as well if they would be so nice as to participate (I would hope).

Ben needs to understand that part of mediation will most likely entail accountability. I can't see it ending in any other ways. Also, in all the people I've seen go through this process, very few have made it through. Also, everyone's experience is allowed to be subjective, nothing has to be ruled, it's not a trial.

I also would like to the accountability to happen regardless of if all the victims participate, they obviously don't have to. I will remind you no one has to be friends, no one has to be satisfied, it's all subjective and you can take away from it what you want. This is just for the possibility for some people to get some level of closure.

Anarchists resolve things through civil discussion and conflict resolution. Despite it's ability to rarely work it I believe it can at least put some people at ease and understanding where they stand.

Also I want AM to do some sort of accountability regardless overall, because I've been uneasy about this too long, some of these statements are damning, and I can't do this anymore. AM means a lot to me but I need to do what's right and if that means I dip out, well, principles.

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Aug 4 2013 04:27
Quote:
So because you were "not directly involved" and it all happened so very far away, that excuses just "staying out of" a serious allegation of harassment against a member of a project you were so invested in? Do you seriously think that is an acceptable response?

If Anarchist Memes is such an important project, you have to ask yourself what processes you are going to put in place, collectively, to ensure that these allegations are dealt with. If one of your comrades is accused of something this serious, you can't just write it off as none of your business. Just saying you'll keep an eye on someone and "call them out" if they start acting abusively when you're around is nowhere near good enough. What if they don't act that way when you're around? What if they do act abusively but you don't happen to notice? What if simply "calling them out" doesn't stop their behaviour?

If you do nothing about this, that cannot possibly end well for Anarchist Memes. It's reputation will be tarnished, permanently. I can understand being emotionally invested in a project, but if your cherished activist baby is threatened by allegations of serious misconduct against a member, you have two choices: try to squash the allegations (that is, apologism), or go through some sort of accountability process. I'm sorry to say the response from Anarchist Memes as a whole to this issue very much indicates the former approach.

~J.

I already mentioned accountability processes before.

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bounce
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Aug 4 2013 06:09

I have screen caps of an email ites sent my rapist saying that he doesn't believe me.

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bounce
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Aug 4 2013 06:10

If that isn't victim blaming then I don't know what is.

tbwobbly
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Aug 4 2013 06:53

Hello,

I am the secretary for the Branch from which x (Ites) was expelled. I facilitated the complaints process. The goal of the process was for x to realise that his behaviour was inappropriate and take responsibility for his actions. Instead, he spread his harassment to others (including myself), continued to justify his behaviour, filed unfounded complaints against the women he was harassing to further attack them and we expelled him.

Quote:
So if the IWW already settled this case, what's up?

This has not "solved the problem." He continues to harass us: I still get e-mails and texts from him, he uses false profiles to stalk us and monitor our pages on Facebook. He's used AM and other forums to personally attack me and others.

Quote:
I also made a further request for mediation on the blog post but Caterpillar deleted it. I have a screenshot in case anyone requires proof.

Mediation requires that all parties want to participate. The women in question did not, and obviously still do not, feel comfortable going through a mediation process with you. That is also why charges were filed, as your request for mediation was refused by the other parties.

Quote:
As for the Portland IWW's appeal process, fuck that bureaucratic noise. As far as I am concerned, as much as I admire and support IWW, their processes are not Anarchist.

What, exactly, is wrong with a democratically elected committee reviewing evidence and then making a recommendation that the branch as a whole votes on? How exactly would you do it?

Quote:
If parties that have been wronged by x want to see something realistic from him, I would like to know what that is.

I can't speak for the others, but I would like
a)x to stop contacting me and anyone else that he has been harassing
b)x to stop attacking me and anyone else that has tried to call him out (including using AM, as he's done before)
c)x to accept responsibility for his actions
d)x to make an effort change his behaviour in the future
e)x to be removed from moderating any group until he has done the above.

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Jason Status
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Aug 4 2013 06:28

This x guy is playing a dirty dirty game with people.

After arguing with people he'd tricked into doing his bidding on facebook; posting a screen cap of the survivor making a joke about Krondstadt on facebook - a picture which included photoshop'd comically size increased letters (and may well entirely be a fabrication - I suspect so) - he then posted on my facebook wall whilst claiming he was not the accused - tried to post the same photoshop'd screen grab (which I no-platformed immediately) and then he privately messaged me saying he was not the accused. I noticed he had the same avatar/profile picture as Ites does here and then he posted something implying he was the accussed - and when I asked him if he was he blocked me.

Be careful people - this guy is fucked up.

x - if you're trying to win people over to your side you should probably not lie to them several times in the first 5 minutes of speaking to them. Grow up sunshine.

I hope you get everything you deserve you piece of shit.

tbwobbly
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Aug 4 2013 06:33
Quote:
What evidence have you got of that? The harassment complaint I made against you that the branch secretary neglected to follow up on?

Ben, again, you did not make a complaint against anyone until after the complaints were filed against you. I wonder if you truly believe your twisted memory of history or if you do this to convince others. The complaints you made were heard and dismissed as unfounded.

Quote:
The harassment complaint you made against me when you found out I was trying to make one against you got taken up...

No, the complaint that was made against you when you refused to leave her and others alone.

Quote:
...and was followed through on (atrociously badly)...

How so? The process was followed to the letter. Just because you don't like the result does not meant that it was done badly.

Quote:
...even after you left (apparently when you thought you were going to lose).

No, she left because you continued to harass her, even using the complaints process to do so. You then went to others in the IWW, told them your lies and had them attack her as well. She no longer felt supported or safe in the group, and I don't blame her.

Leave us alone. Look at your behaviour. As I told you before, perhaps you should see the fact that you have been pushed out of several groups that maybe the problem is you, not everyone else.

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 06:47

I have not been spamming AM. I was blocked from there at the beginning of the year when I tried to respond to shit he posted about us on there. I haven't posted anything since then.

Frankly the blog post wasn't meant to be about AM anyway. It was because I felt that the people involved in the victim blaming should all be named (not just Ites). I also named groups he's heavily involved with because it frustrates me that he keeps finding new people who don't know about him to give him credibility (and I did the same thing when I first met him). When this shit started about a year ago AM was Ites. Since then it's obviously grown a lot more than I realised.

Personally what I would like is:
- Ites stop harassing anyone (eg tbwobbly) who he is still harassing.
- Ites accept responsibility for his behavior.
- Ites stop sending shit about us everyhwere.
- Ites never do this to anyone in the future.

Unfortunately I think given his track record and current attitude all of this is extremely unlikely. Which is why I am warning people about him instead.

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 07:21

And the other part of accountability I'd like is Ites stop watching my FB account. I've already had to set up a new one with only people I know on it yet he is still screen capping it somehow. I am starting to suspect he's hacked it.

caterpillar
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Aug 4 2013 07:45

Someone told me it's unclear what happened here...
Ites is *not* the rapist. That was another person I can't say who for legal reasons.
Ites harassed me and several other people including the rape victim.
I apologise to anyone who got the wrong impression.

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bounce
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Aug 4 2013 07:50

I am the person who was raped. When I outed my rapist, after attempting to engage him in an accountability process that failed miserably and only caused further damage u publicly named him. For this he engaged a private solicitor and took me to court, I could not afford to travel 1000km to the court the hearing was being held in and did not have the money or time to arrange for a solicitor to repressent me, because of this the magistrate ruled in his favour and I now cannot name him because under the eyes of the law doing so constitutes harassment

Ites used this to try and discredit me, because I'd made a harassment complaint against him, by accusing me of being someone who makes false allegations and attempting to get my rapist on side with him. I left the IWW when it became obvious that even if Ites was suspended or expelled that a big enough proportion of members who were friends with him or the rapist now bemueved me to be someone who made false rape allegations, that I would never feel safe as a member. This all happened before I went public with what happened, so not only was he accusing me of false allegations but he was spreading informarion that I, at that ime, didn't want made public. Anyone who thinks it impossible that a woman could be both raped by one man in an organisation and harassed by another is unlikely to have ever been a woman uin an organisation of predominately men.

Caterpillar and TheWobbly are 2 of the few people who consistently supported me throughout all thus and because of that they have both endured harassment and abuse but never once wavered in standing up against victim blaming.

tbwobbly
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Aug 4 2013 08:27

Ben's brief was read, in fact it was quoted in the decision against him by the appeals committee. He admitted to everything he was accused of doing, he just doesn't think that it's wrong. Another perfect example here where he admits to following us on Facebook and justifies it by saying that it's "not stalking." We've asked him to leave us alone. We've blocked him. He continues to use false profiles and others to monitor us. That is stalking.

Ben made no official complaint to me until after charges were filed against him. He previously brought up arguments between him and caterpillar and mentioned he may want to do mediation "in the future," or maybe should "revive a complaint" (One that I was unaware of). All of this was documented and seen by the committee in Portland, as part of the charges that Ben had his friends file against me. They were all thrown out as unfounded (the only person that even provided evidence was me).

Ben has named at least myself several times online, including on Anarchist memes. They were deleted later, I assume by another moderator, but I still have the e-mails Ben sent me bragging how many people had seen it.

It is half true about the letter: I did not read it at the meeting, but I also had not received it. I did say then that, if I had received it, I would not have read it at the meeting.

Ben's so-called strike was moot, because he agreed to terms of relief that removed him from those positions. His strike was a threat to get us to respond to an e-mail he sent, which we did, by giving him notice of the charges filed against him.

The only one that ever brings up Ben's mental illness is Ben himself. This has nothing to do with his illness. Even if his behaviour was/is because of his illness, that does not excuse it.

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bounce
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Aug 4 2013 09:00

When sex work stops being so stigmatised that I need a second account so I can post in open groups about sex work without everyone in my small town, including university staff, finding out I'll delete my second account. Caterpillar made a second account after you and others started stalking her profile and taking screenshots. Neither of those are the same as having false profiles that you use to pretend to be someone you aren't.

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bounce
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Aug 4 2013 09:05

Which I use for what? It is obvious to anyone that It's not a real person and is a profile I made jokingly for my dog. But yeah, someone so evil as to make a facebook account for their dog deserves to be harassed and victim blamed for rape.

Max_Anarchies
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Aug 4 2013 09:06

Why is this dick not banned? Seriously.

Anarchist memes needs to deal with his association with them (ie. Kick him out and publicly distance themselves and apologise), however in the mean time why is he being allowed to continue his harassment publically.

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Devrim
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Aug 4 2013 09:08

I don't know or know of any of the people who this concerns nor do I even live in Australia. From looking through this thread it seems very clear to me that the poster Ites is now using this forum as a way to harass these women. If he doesn't desist from doing this, I think that the admins should ban him.

Devrim

Max_Anarchies
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Aug 4 2013 09:17

Grow up and accept responsibility for your actions.

Left Leg
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Aug 4 2013 09:27
ites wrote:
So again, any thoughts as to a constructive solution that goes beyond finger pointing?

I would suggest that (as others have said) Anarchist Memes stop working with Ites and publicly apologise, via their page, for having facilitated his harassment. Ignoring his behavior has only validated it and I'm appalled that the admins of the page have continued to do so.

I would also suggest that Ites formally apologises to the people he has harassed and then ceases to have any contact with them.

I would further suggest that people do not work with him in the future so that he has no opportunity to victimise and harass again.

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