Israeli plans to cut off east Jerusalem?

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fidel gastro
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Jul 4 2008 16:48
Israeli plans to cut off east Jerusalem?

I saw this on the news lastnight and was made very angry, is this being implemented? Israeli Arabs are having their ID cards taken away too. Or does noone give a shit about the plight of palestinians on this site? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/israelandthepalestinians

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little_brother
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Jul 4 2008 17:02

Problem is, ID cards are not a class issue. They would have to be getting their final salary pensions taken away for it to be newsworthy.

Mike Harman
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Jul 4 2008 17:09
little_brother wrote:
Problem is, ID cards are not a class issue. They would have to be getting their final salary pensions taken away for it to be newsworthy.

Is it really necessary for you to post pointless sniping off-topic comments? I thought some AF members avoid certain discussions on these forums due to behaviour like that. Also please point out where anyone said ID cards aren't a class issue apart from you. Thanks.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 4 2008 17:17
red and black riot wrote:
Or does noone give a shit about the plight of palestinians on this site?

it's shit, of course. as are many other situations in many other countries. but as i have no power to do anything about it i'm more focussed on figuring out how to resist the attacks on living standards here, with cost of living rising way ahead of pay. should we manage to build any kind of collective class power, we're then in a position to exercise it in solidarity with others.

i mean, seems you're taking a bit of a hostile approach which is hardly likely to attract the serious discussion you profess to want. i mean i haven't seen you post about the plight of *insert obscure oppressed population here* , do you just not give a shit? see what i mean?

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little_brother
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Jul 4 2008 18:38

OK sorry, maybe I should have said 'enough' of class issue. It's the use of ID technology as a weapon of control (in this case their removal from one part of a population) that seems to be becoming pervasive and was specifically mentioned by rabr, so hardly off-topic. It's also being used to create 'secure' zones in Basra, it's is defining the ins and outs of Europe, it's being used to discriminate against Roma in Italy. I don't know what I can do about it's use outside of Britain, but this threat to freedom of movement is central to a anarchist perspective on the world. My point, is, we can see an example of just how central the issue of identity cards can become so perhaps we can analyse the problem a bit better and learn how to fight it?

I'd be interested to know if ID has been taken away from everyone equally (it's not mentioned in the Guardian article)?

Pepe
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Jul 4 2008 18:41

Poor terrorists having their civil liberties taken away sad Israel shoiuld stop oppressing them and let them wander around murdering everyone.

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little_brother
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Jul 4 2008 18:49

Well this might be a reason to find out whose ID is being taken away. Otherwise your comment is not much different than saying that all gypsies are thieves (the reason that Roma are threatened with being fingerprinted in Italy). Also would you also argue for stronger border control to keep potential terrorists out of Britain (or to deport people who are deemed unwelcome)?

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2008 19:10
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Poor terrorists having their civil liberties taken away sad Israel shoiuld stop oppressing them and let them wander around murdering everyone.

Are you taking the piss? I really hope you are. Or do you seriously believe that checkpoints and the wall is also about security for Israel?

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 4 2008 19:11
Jess wrote:
anything
Khawaga wrote:
Are you taking the piss?

usually safe to assume so wink

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Khawaga
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Jul 4 2008 19:13
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usually safe to assume so wink

See if only Jess had written tewwowists I would've known...

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Tojiah
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Jul 4 2008 21:02
red and black riot wrote:
I saw this on the news lastnight and was made very angry, is this being implemented? Israeli Arabs are having their ID cards taken away too. Or does noone give a shit about the plight of palestinians on this site? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/israelandthepalestinians

The Israeli politicians are just trying to ride the public outrage in order to get some points. Three people were killed by this Palestinian nut-job, of course the automatic response is that the guy was a terrorist, etc. It's dreadful that they've forced his family to drop public displays of mourning, of course, but the policies being discussed have been going on for a while now. It's not actually news.

And where the hell does it say anything about id cards being taken away?

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little_brother
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Jul 4 2008 23:48

It doesn't. That was a side issue raised by rabr, that I am ashamed to say I exploited opportunistically resulting in correct admonishment by catch.

But good to be discussing it. Any answer to my question about who is having their ID cards removed?

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Khawaga
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Jul 5 2008 10:36
Quote:
Any answer to my question about who is having their ID cards removed?

For Palestinians this happens daily.

fidel gastro
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Jul 9 2008 16:53
Joseph K. wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
Or does noone give a shit about the plight of palestinians on this site?

it's shit, of course. as are many other situations in many other countries. but as i have no power to do anything about it i'm more focussed on figuring out how to resist the attacks on living standards here, with cost of living rising way ahead of pay. should we manage to build any kind of collective class power, we're then in a position to exercise it in solidarity with others.

i mean, seems you're taking a bit of a hostile approach which is hardly likely to attract the serious discussion you profess to want. i mean i haven't seen you post about the plight of *insert obscure oppressed population here* , do you just not give a shit? see what i mean?

Well my last two posts didn't get any response at all, I notice this one has though smile

fidel gastro
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Jul 9 2008 17:04
Jess wrote:
Poor terrorists having their civil liberties taken away sad Israel shoiuld stop oppressing them and let them wander around murdering everyone.

WTF!? So all Israeli Arabs are terrorists all of a sudden? What are you on about? And by the way this bloke was not a member of any organisation, he was just a normal fella who lost it and thought- fuck it ,I ain't taking this shit anymore. I'm not praising what he did but what I am saying is that any one of us has the potential to do something like that in the right circumstances ie being treated like sub human shit 24/7, he snapped. No wonder certain forums accuse you lot of being Zionists and Huns. The ID cards being taken away was reported on the BBC and possibly Al Jazeera.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 9 2008 23:20
red and black riot wrote:
No wonder certain forums accuse you lot of being Zionists

makes a change from anti-semite i suppose. which, out of interest?

red and black riot wrote:
Well my last two posts didn't get any response at all, I notice this one has though

what, you mean your 102 response 'hamas and the holocaust' thread or the 6 response 'anti BNP march' one? confused

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Jul 10 2008 08:13
Quote:

Khawaga wrote:

Quote:

Jess wrote:

Poor terrorists having their civil liberties taken away sad Israel shoiuld stop oppressing them and let them wander around murdering everyone.

Are you taking the piss? I really hope you are. Or do you seriously believe that checkpoints and the wall is also about security for Israel?

Quote:
Joseph K wrote:
Quote:

Jess wrote:

anything

Quote:
Khawaga wrote:

Are you taking the piss?

usually safe to assume so wink

So r n' b riot, please read before getting worked up. And try to not be so fucking black and white in your views about Palestine and Israel. Not slagging off Israel all the time doesn't equate zionism. But you sound like a fucking Palestinian nationalist, which basically is the same as a Zionist.

fidel gastro
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Jul 12 2008 22:33
Joseph K. wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
No wonder certain forums accuse you lot of being Zionists

makes a change from anti-semite i suppose. which, out of interest?

red and black riot wrote:
Well my last two posts didn't get any response at all, I notice this one has though

what, you mean your 102 response 'hamas and the holocaust' thread or the 6 response 'anti BNP march' one? confused

Your asking me wether I'm a Zionist or an anti--semite? Somehow I don't think I'm the one being so black and white. I posted a news thread about Israelis beating up arab farmers, one of which was an old woman. I posted another thread about the Rise festival and didn't get a response to that either, thats what I was refering to. So I don't understand why sympathising with arab farmers being attacked by Israeli thugs makes me a nationalist (or an anti-semite) or why people have not replied to these two threads I posted. And I like to be more open minded than to just go onto the Libcom forums. And btw I've made myself clear about where I stand on capitalist and nationalist liberation movements, I just thought that people would not necessarlily have seen the news that I have.

fidel gastro
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Jul 12 2008 22:38
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:

Khawaga wrote:

Quote:

Jess wrote:

Poor terrorists having their civil liberties taken away sad Israel shoiuld stop oppressing them and let them wander around murdering everyone.

Are you taking the piss? I really hope you are. Or do you seriously believe that checkpoints and the wall is also about security for Israel?

Quote:
Joseph K wrote:
Quote:

Jess wrote:

anything

Quote:
Khawaga wrote:

Are you taking the piss?

usually safe to assume so wink

So r n' b riot, please read before getting worked up. And try to not be so fucking black and white in your views about Palestine and Israel. Not slagging off Israel all the time doesn't equate zionism. But you sound like a fucking Palestinian nationalist, which basically is the same as a Zionist.

I didn't label anyone a Zionist on this thread! I can't understand why people are so skeptical about my original post either.

Bobby
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Jul 12 2008 23:58

well, from the bit of time I spent their and witnessed the cutting off of Jerusalem is natural progression of the building of the apartheid wall. Israeli ruling class no longer depend on palestinian workers now with greather migrant labour from Africa, India etc. As for a 'two-state solution' it appears to be pie in the sky now........

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cantdocartwheels
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Jul 13 2008 07:44
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Or does noone give a shit about the plight of palestinians on this site?

What exactly do you propose I or any other poster who isn't from palestine is supposed to do about this particular act of oppression?

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Khawaga
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Jul 13 2008 08:33
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I didn't label anyone a Zionist on this thread! I can't understand why people are so skeptical about my original post either.

Not a single individual you didn't, but indirectly you called Libcom as a whole (which includes its posters) Zionist by referring to what other (nationalist) forums think of libcom.

Quote:
I can't understand why people are so skeptical about my original post either.

People are skeptical because the article you linked to doesn't mention ID cards at all. However, I've been to Israel/Palestine a few times and I do know that the issue of ID cards is intimately bound up with the occupation. It is essential for the matrix of checkpoints, settlements, settler only roads, "A, B and C" areas in the West Bank, etc. etc.

Quote:
Bobby wrote:
well, from the bit of time I spent their and witnessed the cutting off of Jerusalem is natural progression of the building of the apartheid wall. Israeli ruling class no longer depend on palestinian workers now with greather migrant labour from Africa, India etc. As for a 'two-state solution' it appears to be pie in the sky now........

Couldn't agree more. Though I would say that the reliance on non-Palestinian labour comes from the al-Aqsa intifada and the Israeli govt decision to separate (the wall is just part of this policy) Israelis and Palestinians. The new migrant labour from Asia and Africa started as a result of these policies and did not push out Palestinian labour.

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cantdocartwheels wrote:
What exactly do you propose I or any other poster who isn't from palestine is supposed to do about this particular act of oppression?

There is the possibility of doing stuff with the ISM and AATW. Sometimes their work is very successful. Though in the long run it is better to focus on the class struggle where you come from. This has been suggested to him before, but he's still whining about the plight of the Palestinians as doing that is "doing something".

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Rob Ray
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Jul 13 2008 10:37

In fairness, there's nothing wrong with publicising attacks on working class groups in an international context, nor in urging people to sign petitions, send emails to embassies etc, which is easy and does at least do the ABC thing of reminding policymakers they're being watched.

But yeah beyond that, the best thing you can possibly do to fight oppression in Jerusalem is to fight it here - to build up the forces of progression so that when Palestinians call for help in the future they will actually get it, be that via money, widespread boycotts of Israeli goods, blackballing of the transport of Israeli goods, etc etc.

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 13 2008 14:08
red and black riot wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
red and black riot wrote:
No wonder certain forums accuse you lot of being Zionists

makes a change from anti-semite i suppose. which, out of interest?

Your asking me wether I'm a Zionist or an anti--semite? Somehow I don't think I'm the one being so black and white.

no, iºm saying being called a zionist makes a change from being called an anti-semite. of course i am neither, and donºt really give a shit what nationalists of any shade think on the matter. i was asking which forums accuse ºus lotº of zionism, because they donºt sound very bright if they mistake advocating class struggle and stateless communism for supporting the israeli state.

fidel gastro
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Jul 15 2008 00:10
Khawaga wrote:
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I didn't label anyone a Zionist on this thread! I can't understand why people are so skeptical about my original post either.

Not a single individual you didn't, but indirectly you called Libcom as a whole (which includes its posters) Zionist by referring to what other (nationalist) forums think of libcom.

That is not accurate, I was just saying that some people on other forums have said that there are Zionists on Libcom. Other than that, I agree with your post.

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Khawaga
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Jul 15 2008 08:21
Quote:
That is not accurate

Well, what you said was

Quote:
No wonder certain forums accuse you lot of being Zionists and Huns.

Which I interpreted as a) libcom is Zionist and b) you agreeing to some degree with that accusation. Anyhoo, you're not the first or will be last one to fail to convey what you really meant. wink. I think this partly due to the medium we're using.

John Somebody
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Aug 3 2008 18:15
Quote:
Jess wrote:
Poor terrorists having their civil liberties taken away sad Israel shoiuld stop oppressing them and let them wander around murdering everyone.

John Somebody wrote:
The poor "terrorists" are people that I often criticise for picking the wrong targets, like bus bombings, instead of infrastructure. But I have to acknowledge that if my kiddies had been shot dead for playing out on the street, or for dithering a bit too near the "killing zone" near a sniper tower. Or having been shat on by settler thugs that none of us would be allowed to defend ourselves against, for 60 fucking years. All this while neo natzi state practitioners of genocide make terror from F16's etc, with apparent impunity. And while my community get criticised for being you know whats; then I just might be angry, bitter, and yes even twisted enough to want revenge. And I know, that from the comfort of my armchair, I can still realise on an intellectual level, that being motivated by a desire for revenge, will probably make things worse; I have to acknowledge, that it's probable that if I were to live in those conditions, in a legally enforced fucking ghetto, then I'd not be as rational as I usually am, or as rational as some smug bastard, able to philosophise about revolutionary theory might appear to be, with a full belly, and decent access to decent necessities. Why should I need to make this point ?

Quote:
Jess wrote:
So r n' b riot, please read before getting worked up. And try to not be so fucking black and white in your views about Palestine and Israel. Not slagging off Israel all the time doesn't equate zionism. But you sound like a fucking Palestinian nationalist, which basically is the same as a Zionist.

John Somebody wrote:
There is a black and white issue. Are the state practitioners of genocidal ethnic "cleansing", to be tolerated or not ? Surely you're not going to tell me that zio -neo -natzi's should be tolerated more than other types of neo - natzi's, are you ? And N O, a "fucking Palestinian nationalist" is not the same as a zionist, as it's not the Palestinians who've invaded Palestine, with the purpose of creating a state at the expense of the people already living there, pretty much in peace for a long time and killing people for being the wrong kind of Semites, (which makes it genocide) so's to create an exodus of refugees, leaving space for the theiving master race. The Palestinians, however, were not killing anyone for being any kind of Semite, or Jew, or other. And even when zionists became so clever at spreading , the lie, that to be Jewish, was to be a zionist it would not have been immediate for Palestinians capable of fighting back to belive it. And a long time of the next generation having no contact with Jews other than the imitation sort who came to kill and thieve.
Amazing that some of the above needs to be said to someone who's not a zionist.

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Khawaga
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Aug 3 2008 18:28

dp

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Khawaga
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Aug 3 2008 18:29
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And N O, a "fucking Palestinian nationalist" is not the same as a zionist

While they're not identical, they're both simply local flavours of nationalism (as any other nationalism). And obviosuly zionism is the nationalism of the one party with the upper hand in the conflict.

John Somebody
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Aug 3 2008 22:03
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
And N O, a "fucking Palestinian nationalist" is not the same as a zionist

While they're not identical, they're both simply local flavours of nationalism (as any other nationalism). And obviosuly zionism is the nationalism of the one party with the upper hand in the conflict.

So, would you say, that while C18 and the SNP are not identicle, (that's right, one of them isn't a bunch of racist scum), they're still different flavours of nationalist, and should be said to be, "the same as", each other ? Really ?

John Somebody
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Aug 3 2008 21:57
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I didn't label anyone a Zionist on this thread! I can't understand why people are so skeptical about my original post either.

I don't understand it either, despite the fact that, having been shocked by that statement by Jess, then I do find it easy to label at least one person as a zionist. But then I frequently don't understand things about zionists. Like how they can have the cheek, to expect anyone to believe them, when they claim Israel to be a democracy. . . . . . .As though genocidal acts of ethnic "cleansing", are demoratic ways to create and maintain a zionist majority, before those ha ha, free and fair elections. But maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, after all, when our politicians and media lackies tell us the same thing, they keep getting away with it. And for years, I didn't rub two brain cells together over it, either.