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Israeli plans to cut off east Jerusalem?

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yoshomon
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Aug 8 2008 13:56
John Somebody wrote:
But I'm not doing that, I'm championing the victims of zio - neo natzi aggression. And if nationalists are fighting back against such terrorist scum, then my opposition to their nationalism is pretty low on my list of things to fight against.

That anyones opposition to it forms any criticism of any Palestinian victims of zionasty aggression, to the point of accusing someone who doesn't participate in such ignorant foolery, or closet zionism . . . . . . .Well, that looks like closet zionism. Is that simple enough for you ?

Maybe you could help Chomsky write another preface to a Robert Faurisson book.

What's the final solution to the "zion-natzi" problem, John?

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Tojiah
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Aug 9 2008 17:43

John Somebody, how long are you going to pretend that Palestinian nationalists are all about resisting Zionist oppression, when everyone marginally informed of Middle Eastern politics should be well aware that these nationalists have no qualms about instigating the deaths of fellow Palestinians, for being involved in the wrong nationalist faction, for writing the wrong things in the newspaper, etc?

Joseph K. wrote:
in what way is it a lie? as far as i'm aware, and perhaps some of the israeli posters will correct me if any of this is incorrect, israel has pretty much free multi-party elections, the rule of law (subject to state of emergency, a standard feature of 'democracies' everywhere), reasonable (bourgeois) social freedoms for a fairly religious country (i.e. iirc police cleared right-wing rioters to allow a gay pride event to take place). these seem like the characteristics of a liberal democracy. the fact it is a democracy committing atrocities doesn't really have any bearing on this particular point. i mean i may be ignorant, and i'm willing to stand corrected, but i'm not lying, nor pushing a 'zionist agenda', i just like to see things as they are rather than just sloppily labelling bad things as 'nazi'.

Yeah, all of those things are true, as long as you only include the Israeli side of the Green Line. This is not true in the the West Bank, where rule of law rarely applies to Palestinians in anything but collecting taxes, demolishing houses and writing traffic fines, where the police and military are wont to be at best neutral when settlers attack Palestinians, at worst assisting them.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 10 2008 14:51
tojiah wrote:
Yeah, all of those things are true, as long as you only include the Israeli side of the Green Line. This is not true in the the West Bank, where rule of law rarely applies to Palestinians in anything but collecting taxes, demolishing houses and writing traffic fines, where the police and military are wont to be at best neutral when settlers attack Palestinians, at worst assisting them.

fair point, although aside from geographic proximity is this qualitatatively different from US/UK actions in their occupied territories? perhaps in the intent to maintain intolerable conditions, but this doesn't obviously affect whether the state in question is liberal-democratic or 'natzi.' if you argue the geographic proximity and historical background renders west bank/gaza residents as disenfranchised subjects of the israeli state, then apartheid SA seems a better analogy, though this argument would seem to lead to a one-state solution and ethno-religious pluralism, which is pretty anaethema to the nationalsts on all sides.

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Tojiah
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Aug 10 2008 19:56
Joseph K. wrote:
fair point, although aside from geographic proximity is this qualitatatively different from US/UK actions in their occupied territories?

Makes "bring the troops home" ring kind of hollow. Also, the economical and territorial entrenchment is, as I see it, irreversible.

Joseph K. wrote:
perhaps in the intent to maintain intolerable conditions, but this doesn't obviously affect whether the state in question is liberal-democratic or 'natzi.' if you argue the geographic proximity and historical background renders west bank/gaza residents as disenfranchised subjects of the israeli state, then apartheid SA seems a better analogy, though this argument would seem to lead to a one-state solution and ethno-religious pluralism, which is pretty anaethema to the nationalsts on all sides.

An increasing number of people are discussing a one-state solution, on both sides of the Green Line. They are getting more and more vocal. A two-state solution seems unlikely to me at this point. A solution seems unlikely to me at this point. How are ethnic relations in post-apartheid South Africa, by the way?

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 10 2008 20:06

well exactly, which is why i'm of the 'no state solution' school of thought. just saying SA seems a closer analogy than 30s germany, although like i say i'm not particularly knowledgeable on the situation; i've never been and did some uk-based ISM stuff for a bit about 5 years ago, that's about my experience.

tojiah wrote:
Also, the economical and territorial entrenchment is, as I see it, irreversible.

certainly far more entrenched than when you're safely out of range of your occupation, for sure. do you agree that israel is an essentially liberal democratic state, or are you saying the status of the palestinian population under its de facto jurisdiction negates this?

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Tojiah
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Aug 10 2008 20:14
Joseph K. wrote:
well exactly, which is why i'm of the 'no state solution' school of thought. just saying SA seems a closer analogy than 30s germany, although like i say i'm not particularly knowledgeable on the situation; i've never been and did some uk-based ISM stuff for a bit about 5 years ago, that's about my experience.

I tend to agree. Also, the usage of Nazi analogies makes it very easy for Israelis and Jews to ignore anything else you say on the subject, so unless someone does bring up anything specifically relevant about it, I'd really advise against it, that is if you assume that you are interested in discussing things with Israelis and Jews, rather than at them.

Joseph K. wrote:
tojiah wrote:
Also, the economical and territorial entrenchment is, as I see it, irreversible.

certainly far more entrenched than when you're safely out of range of your occupation, for sure. do you agree that israel is an essentially liberal democratic state, or are you saying the status of the palestinian population under its de facto jurisdiction negates this?

Does it matter what it is called? Israel is very open to many kinds of lifestyles in many parts of it and allows a lot of leeway in terms of senseless "expression of opinions," as long as you're not an Arab. If you happen to be not only an Arab, but a Palestinian who is not an Israeli citizen, then you're twice and thrice screwed. Your position inside the Green Line will always be tenuous, and your life is practically forfeit in the Territories. But if you walk around Tel Aviv, you can pretend that Arabs are not a significant minority, that there is no racism or hostility, that is until you run into a bunch of immigration cops hassling a migrant laborer.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 10 2008 20:24
tojiah wrote:
Does it matter what it is called?

only insofar as the label used reflects a certain understanding, and it's important to have an accurate understanding, so thanks for elaborating. i mean this was kinda my point, that the actions of the israeli state (and any other) can be judged independently of whether that state is fascist or liberal or whatever.

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Tojiah
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Aug 10 2008 20:51

I suppose it's a matter of ethnic differential and economic development. European societies were considered pretty liberal just a few decades ago, and just look at them now, when the ethnic differential is dropping. Suddenly these immigrants are a liability rather than an asset, and this comes with a plateau of economic development.

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Tojiah
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Aug 10 2008 20:52

Addendum: Fascism is the bogeyman liberals distance themselves from to make themselves seem better. Liberals put into practice all that the fascists could only dream of. It's true of Britain, and it's true of Israel. And of everywhere, I imagine. I wonder what horrors we will be subjected to in the dying throes of American supremacy under Obama, and what excuses would be made for it on the part of American liberals. I'm already bored. :-/

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Devrim
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Aug 11 2008 06:23
tojiah wrote:
An increasing number of people are discussing a one-state solution, on both sides of the Green Line. They are getting more and more vocal. A two-state solution seems unlikely to me at this point. A solution seems unlikely to me at this point. How are ethnic relations in post-apartheid South Africa, by the way?
Joseph K. wrote:
well exactly, which is why i'm of the 'no state solution' school of thought. just saying SA seems a closer analogy than 30s germany, although like i say i'm not particularly knowledgeable on the situation; i've never been and did some uk-based ISM stuff for a bit about 5 years ago, that's about my experience.

I agree with ToJ. I don't see any solution being possible. Outside of genocide or mass expulsions, I don't think that a solution can be found within capital.

Devrim

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 11 2008 06:31

in case it's unclear, a 'no-state solution' wouldn't be within capital, it's a rhetorical way of saying global stateless communism, and the class struggle that would be required to produce it. i.e. i don't see a solution as very likely sad

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Khawaga
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Aug 11 2008 08:10

I agree with ToJ. The one state solution is quickly becoming the only option available, and ironically this is basically due to the Israeli state's actions with the wall, A B and C territories etc. which basically has rendered an state in Gaza and WB impossible (not that the prospect for establishing a state along the green line was that great to begin with). AS ToJ writes, the economic and territorial entrenchment is very very deep, although Israelis and Palestinians are more separated now than they were before the second Intifada (in terms of freedom of movement).

As ToJ writes, more and more folks are coming around to this position. I mean even the LA Times wrote about the one state solution as being the only real option, and it is really a watershed that a major paper like that has adopted that view.

Re: apartheid. It is the best analogy as far as analogies go. Lots of ex anti-apartheid activists see Israel's policies as that, and lots of Israel's policies are directly taken from apartheid South Africa (particularly Gaza where some of the language have been taken verbatim from apartheid policies. Haaretz ran something on this back in 2004 or 2005).

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Joseph L wrote:
certainly far more entrenched than when you're safely out of range of your occupation, for sure. do you agree that israel is an essentially liberal democratic state, or are you saying the status of the palestinian population under its de facto jurisdiction negates this?

I would say that both of these statements are correct. Israel has all the trappings of a liberal democratic state, though it is for Jews. Though if we are interested in arguing in bourgeoisie terms, the Palestinian population being subject to the rule of arbitrary law certainly outweighs this. But I believe it is pointless to establish the pros and cons of this.

Quote:
ToJ wrote:
How are ethnic relations in post-apartheid South Africa, by the way?

They're not great at all. Separation is still the name of the game. Tbh I have more hope for I-P.

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Devrim
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Aug 11 2008 11:58
Quote:
I agree with ToJ. The one state solution is quickly becoming the only option available,

I don't think that is what he is saying:

ToJ wrote:
An increasing number of people are discussing a one-state solution, on both sides of the Green Line. They are getting more and more vocal. A two-state solution seems unlikely to me at this point. A solution seems unlikely to me at this point.

To me it comes across as he doesn't think there is much chance of any solution.

Devrim

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Khawaga
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Aug 11 2008 16:58
Quote:
To me it comes across as he doesn't think there is much chance of any solution.

To clarify. I don't think there is a solution that the sides in the conflict will agree to, it's just that the territorial expansion of Israel now (and in the future) will basically make a Palestinian state (even a pseudo-state) impossible. I sincerely believe that a two -state solution is impossible, leaving a bi-national state as the only option. This is not something either the bourgeoisie of P or I want, but the current trajectory of territorial expansion and economic subjugation will lead to one state.

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Tojiah
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Aug 12 2008 21:02

Maybe we should clarify what we mean by a solution? I know I mean that there are no long-term prospects for two nation-states in Palestine, that a single, "bi"-national state is what most Palestinians, for example, seem to believe that will happen, but that it has no viable likelihood anyway unless a lot more ethnic cleansing is done (most likely of Palestinians, but you never know, do you?).

John Somebody
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Aug 14 2008 02:43
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
Zionists, they're the ones who support the political entity of zion.

for the avoidance of any doubt, i am opposed to all states and in favour of stateless communism. i am also opposed to all nationalism, whether of states or the stateless. if you think i'm a zionist, you must also think i'm a neo-nazi. amazing.

Do you have difficulty getting your head around the word "closet", or the concept of "closet" zionism ? Do you see how its possible to be openly anti something, and at the same time, possibly on a less conscious level, supportive of it, to some degree ?

John Somebody
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Aug 14 2008 02:48
yoshomon wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
But I'm not doing that, I'm championing the victims of zio - neo natzi aggression. And if nationalists are fighting back against such terrorist scum, then my opposition to their nationalism is pretty low on my list of things to fight against.

That anyones opposition to it forms any criticism of any Palestinian victims of zionasty aggression, to the point of accusing someone who doesn't participate in such ignorant foolery, or closet zionism . . . . . . .Well, that looks like closet zionism. Is that simple enough for you ?

Maybe you could help Chomsky write another preface to a Robert Faurisson book.

What's the final solution to the "zion-natzi" problem, John?

The final solution must surely be an end to zio - natzism, Yoshomon.

John Somebody
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Aug 14 2008 04:16
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
Trying to pin any blame on any Palestinians, for anything other than seriously over reacting, which is what truly terrorised people do... I believe I have answered you, with this reply. Now tell me, please, where its innacurate.

it's so wrong i don't know where to start:
- you treat palestinians as homogenous again

No I don' t . I've been referring to the ones that you criticise. Not the ones you don't. But then you've the cheek to talk as though I'm
talking about all of them, really, , , , , in reply to YOUR criticism, really. Your trying to hide some thing, aren't you ? Oh hang on, do you mean, because I point out that they do have things in common, such as ALL, (as with Jews accross the world, but to a far lesser degree), victims of the process by which Israel was created, and is maintained. IS THAT IT, the bit where Itreat them all as homogenous

Joseph K. wrote:
- you deny any of them agency, they're all purely reactive for you

Again, the kind of trick that zio's are infamous for. The ones who are LARGELY reactive, are the ones you criticise, and the ones that I say would not be doing what they do, if they were not in a situatuion created by zionatzi scum., AGAIN, you haven't told me just where this is innacurate. SO, TELL ME. Stop wriggling, and tell me.

Joseph K. wrote:
- you afford them all the status of pristine blameless victims

AGAIN, such a liberal use of the word, "all". AND AGAIN, you try to twist my words. How does accusing someone of over reacting, involve affording them "pristine, blameless victim status" ? And do you really not understand that no matter what, or how heavy the over reacting, is, it's still over reacting ? Or are you really, just criticising me for not being graphic enough, with the gory details, about bus bombings with babies on board ?

ENOUGH, when you stop contributing such blatant zio tricks as above, I'll start making more effort to answer you comprehesively, as I have done untill now. Untill then, you have a much lower priority for me, than minimising my RSI due to making such efforts, which amounts to nothing more than chasing a closet zionist around in zio circles full of zio twaddle and obfuscations, such as where you accuse me of treating Palestinians as homogenous
Oh, and if you could see your way around to answering some of the questions I've asked you, especially the ones, where you appear to have answered, but that in turn, being blown out of the water, without a defence from you; then I could start to feel a little more belief in your willing ness to face the issues. A degree more respect might ensue as a consequence.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 14 2008 06:13
John Somebody wrote:
Your trying to hide some thing, aren't you ?
John Somebody wrote:
the kind of trick that zio's are infamous for.
John Somebody wrote:
SO, TELL ME. Stop wriggling, and tell me.
John Somebody wrote:
ENOUGH, when you stop contributing such blatant zio tricks

do you see yourself as some kind of psychoanalyst revealing my repressed zionism? because you're just coming off as paranoid. i mean this is like responding to reasoned arguments with 'yeah, but secretly you eat children don't you.'

John Somebody wrote:
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
Zionists, they're the ones who support the political entity of zion.

for the avoidance of any doubt, i am opposed to all states and in favour of stateless communism. i am also opposed to all nationalism, whether of states or the stateless. if you think i'm a zionist, you must also think i'm a neo-nazi. amazing.

Do you have difficulty getting your head around the word "closet", or the concept of "closet" zionism ? Do you see how its possible to be openly anti something, and at the same time, possibly on a less conscious level, supportive of it, to some degree ?

i see how it's possible, i don't see how i'm doing it, and your psuedo-psychologizing is not an adequate substitute for argument.

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 14 2008 07:08
John Somebody wrote:
No I don' t . I've been referring to the ones that you criticise. Not the ones you don't. But then you've the cheek to talk as though I'm
talking about all of them, really, , , , , in reply to YOUR criticism, really. Your trying to hide some thing, aren't you ? Oh hang on, do you mean, because I point out that they do have things in common, such as ALL, (as with Jews accross the world, but to a far lesser degree), victims of the process by which Israel was created, and is maintained. IS THAT IT, the bit where Itreat them all as homogenous

so to be clear, you're weren't defending palestinians in general, but only the ones i was criticising, i.e. Hamas/Fatah etc? i'm not trying to misrepresent you, i'm just struggling to follow.

John Somebody wrote:
Again, the kind of trick that zio's are infamous for. The ones who are LARGELY reactive, are the ones you criticise, and the ones that I say would not be doing what they do, if they were not in a situatuion created by zionatzi scum., AGAIN, you haven't told me just where this is innacurate. SO, TELL ME. Stop wriggling, and tell me.

Ad hominem bollocks. nationalists have an agenda of their own, even if you could show they only started because israel did (plausible), to deny they have an agenda of their own today is apologetics pure and simple. e.g. hezbollah provoking the lebanon war (israel gladly accepted, reinforcing my point that the israeli military and the various 'resistances' need each other), or hamas and fatah fighting it out for control of palestinian streets.

John Somebody wrote:
AGAIN, such a liberal use of the word, "all". AND AGAIN, you try to twist my words. How does accusing someone of over reacting, involve affording them "pristine, blameless victim status" ? And do you really not understand that no matter what, or how heavy the over reacting, is, it's still over reacting ? Or are you really, just criticising me for not being graphic enough, with the gory details, about bus bombings with babies on board ?

if i were to bang on about how the tube bombings were 'just an over-reaction' to the invasion of Iraq, then i could rightly be accused of apologetics. no doubt they were partially in reaction to it, but islamism is a political ideology with an agenda of its own. but like i say what alarms me the most is the symmetry with the zionist argument that the creation of israel was just a reaction to the holocaust. of course this means i'm a 'closet zio natzi.' yawn.

John Somebody wrote:
ENOUGH, when you stop contributing such blatant zio tricks as above, I'll start making more effort to answer you comprehesively, as I have done untill now. Untill then, you have a much lower priority for me, than minimising my RSI due to making such efforts, which amounts to nothing more than chasing a closet zionist around in zio circles full of zio twaddle and obfuscations, such as where you accuse me of treating Palestinians as homogenous
Oh, and if you could see your way around to answering some of the questions I've asked you, especially the ones, where you appear to have answered, but that in turn, being blown out of the water, without a defence from you; then I could start to feel a little more belief in your willing ness to face the issues. A degree more respect might ensue as a consequence.

which questions have i not answered and have in fact been 'blown out of the water' by you? confused i'm really not following you. but then i'm just pulling dirty zionist tricks to make you go round in circles roll eyes you still haven't responded to why nazism is an innacurate and counterproductive analogy except to say it's 'neo' and therefore a bit different. and ffs it's spelt 'nazi', there's no such thing as a 'natzi,' it makes you sound even more hysterical spelling it wrong.

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Khawaga
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Aug 14 2008 09:20
Quote:
because I point out that they do have things in common, such as ALL, (as with Jews accross the world, but to a far lesser degree), victims of the process by which Israel was created, and is maintained. IS THAT IT, the bit where Itreat them all as homogenous

plenty of Palestinians that have benefitted from Zionist colonization since the late 1800s. And now, need I mention Abu Mazen? Or during Oslo, the Tunisians?

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Anarchia
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Aug 14 2008 12:18
Joseph K. wrote:
and ffs it's spelt 'nazi', there's no such thing as a 'natzi,' it makes you sound even more hysterical spelling it wrong.

What is it with spelling things wrong? I'm dealing with an antisemitic poster on Aotearoa Indymedia at the moment who insists on spelling it Izrael - I guess the letter z is more evil than the letter s? and perhaps natzi means that the letter t modifies the z to make it even worse? tongue

Oh, but who cares anyway, Joseph, you secretly eat children!

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 14 2008 12:31
Asher wrote:
I'm dealing with an antisemitic poster on Aotearoa Indymedia at the moment

a lefty one? i never actually came across an actual anti-semite when involved in palestine stuff (despite frequent accusations, sometimes repeated in the press by the cops). there was a fair bit of borderline stuff though like seeing a conspiratorial zionist hand in every event ever, from suicide bombings to the invasion of Iraq. if it wasn't for the anti-deutsche lot i'd call it structural anti-semitism, because it far more resembles the structure of classical anti-semitic slander than a focussed hatred of financial capital, which afterall hasn't been notably 'jewish' since christianity got down with usury several centuries ago (actually, now that i work for a money lender, am i a 'structural semite' according to anti-deutsche? tongue).

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Anarchia
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Aug 14 2008 20:01

Not sure, they're anonymous. My best guesses knowing Indy's usual commenters is that its either a neo-nazi being more subtle than usual, or its a vaguely lefty member of one of the local Palestine solidarity groups (who I've had only a few interactions with, but I really don't like, for obvious reasons). I'm leaning towards thinking its one of our local fascists though, which is less annoying than if it was a lefty.

I've encountered a lot of structural antisemitism on the left / in Palestine solidarity groups (and yeah, anti-deutsch really have ruined what is a potentially useful term), but very little "actual" antisemitism (for lack of a better way to describe it). Certainly far less than a lot of the Jewish community predicted when they tried to turn me away from left-wing politics when I first started getting involved!

A sample quote from one of the comments I asked the editors of AIMC to hide (which they did, although I'm still waiting for other comments to be hidden). This one was in response to my initial request for a comment to be hidden for antisemitism:

Some anonymous antisemite wrote:
could someone make sure the anti semitic comments stay? not only do they show a respect for freespeech it is now apparent, more so daily, that is there is a war, Izrael is always there profiting somehow. The jewish infiltration of the USA gov't is now causing wars world wide and the americans are becoming aware of who how & why. these despicable religous whackos have enslaved a great many with slavery bonds called "mortgages". there will never be enough anti semitism if you ask me.
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Joseph Kay
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Aug 14 2008 20:06

yeah that does sound like old-school fash anti-semitism, even the anti-finance capital 'zionist conspiracy' lefties would balk at explcit anti-semitism, and as far as i'm aware have no problem with jews. i don't know what annoys me more, the crude bigotry or the lack of materialist analysis, not that they're unrelated of course.

tigersiskillers
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Aug 15 2008 09:55

Coincidentally someone's just been thrown off the Marxmail list for posting choice insights like this:

Quote:
Most of the cannibals who rule the world with their money, however, do not care
where their meat comes from, so long as it is hot and plentiful. Undeniably
for many Jewish billionnaires Zionism is a hobby, a game they play for their
sick, racist amusement like chess, by buying the governments of the US,
France, UK, and the Arab dictatorships. For the few who really believe
their Nazi Master Race dogma about being God's Chosen, authorized to murder,
rape, and rob the Untermenschen, however, it is a bloody, righteous cause,
for which they are willing to fight from their armchairs in New York to the
death of the last Jew in Israel

This, by the way, was part of an explanation for the Iraq war. roll eyes

Mind you, at least he could spell nazi properly...

FREEPALESTINE
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Aug 17 2008 15:51

well if palestinian people are terrorists WHAT IN THE BLUE FUCK ARE THE Israeli DEFENCE FORCES WHO SHOOT Palestinian children
who use Palestinian childrePalestinian as human shields
FREE FREE Palestine
israel ARE murders and the true terrorists

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Joseph Kay
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Aug 17 2008 16:20
FREEPALESTINE wrote:
well if palestinian people are terrorists WHAT IN THE BLUE FUCK ARE THE Israeli DEFENCE FORCES

read the thread. no-one thinks 'the palestinian people' are terrorists, that label's being applied to nationalist gangs like Hamas, Fatah, Hizb'allah and the IDF

yoshomon
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Aug 17 2008 17:27

I don't think the term 'structural anti-semitism' is ruined by the anti-deutsch (anymore than the term 'class struggle' is ruined by Trotskyists). Such a small amount of their work is translated into english, and they are really not relevant. What I've read of anti-deutsch theory really mystifies the issue and, of course, is ultimately nationalist.

When discussing Israel and anti-semitism, the far left and the far right are often indistinguishable. Neo-nazis put Chomsky books on their recommended reading lists without irony (especially after he defended Faurrison) and often go on and on about Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians (they attempt to profit from suffering just like the left does).

Take a gander at these paragraphs from Kevin Keating's article "American Defeat: an anti-state communist perspective on the Iraq war" (hosted on infoshop.org) -

Quote:
Among the US political class, some are pro-Israel, some are fanatically pro-Israel, and some are wildly, fanatically pro-Israel. This unanimity of thought extends from the right-wing establishment leftward to irrelevant feeble liberals of the Nation magazine stripe. The United States is at the beck and call of the Israeli ruling class, and will endlessly cater to Israel’s military and economic needs. This includes allowing Israel to spy on the US and attack the US militarily during time of war. All factions of the US political elite have made it clear that the US will also back any action the Zionist state takes against the original inhabitants of the territory it occupies, no matter how much this damages long-term US imperial interests in predominantly Arab and Muslim regions of the world.

For example, the constant expansion of Jewish settlements into territory supposedly conceded to a Palestinian authority is an American tax-dollar subsidized large-scale public housing program for Israel. This housing program is taking place during a major domestic housing crisis in the United States, where subsidized housing projects have suffered massive funding cuts or been closed down. The US buys social peace for Israeli society with this; poorer, dark-skinned Jews, who are near the bottom of the class hierarchy in Israeli society, are fronted off into the settlements, where they bear the brunt of anti-settler Palestinian guerrilla violence. This in turn drives these settlers to form part of the most recalcitrant and reactionary element of Israeli society. The constant expansion of the settlements over Arab lands would be impossible without the decades-long infusion of an average of three million US tax dollars per day into the ever-floundering Israeli economy.

The US is effectively a pawn of its client state in Jerusalem. This is a comically absurd situation; try to imagine the late 19th century British Empire being perpetually on its knees before the King of Nepal. In return for US sponsorship, Israel has carte blanche do whatever it wants to its Palestinian subjects and to anyone living within striking distance of the Israeli Air Force.

In the Middle East, America must do what Israel needs before America can do what America needs.

Within a supposedly "communist" framework, Keating reproduces the ZOG theory popular amongst the far-right in the US. When I proposed this to him, he shot back: "I suggest you take it up with your Senator -- Lieberman, that is; the Senator from Israel."

The "analysis" that Keating reproduces is popular on the Left and, in my experience, tolerated and encouraged as an acceptable discourse even by those on the Left who disagree with it (while, for example, I would not last long on indymedia or whatever if I advanced a theory that the US was a client state of a global African elite). Implicit in what he writes is also a defense of American nationalism (particularly the last sentence quoted), which is a common thread in Leftist positions on the war in Iraq (various brands of "the war needs to stop because it is bad for America"). Again, these ideas are indistinguishable from the far right populism of the Ron Paul variety that has gained so much momentum over the past few years - and drawn plenty of leftists into its wings. Many indymedia sites openly promote the '9/11 truth' conspiracies which are intimately tied up into this resurgent far right populism.

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yeah that does sound like old-school fash anti-semitism, even the anti-finance capital 'zionist conspiracy' lefties would balk at explcit anti-semitism, and as far as i'm aware have no problem with jews. i don't know what annoys me more, the crude bigotry or the lack of materialist analysis, not that they're unrelated of course.

I think that it is important to differentiate between anti-semitism - expressed in what you call "anti-finance capital 'zionist conspiracy'" leftism - and anti-jewish racism. The two certainly overlap, but they are different things and operate differently in the world. Most people who propagate anti-semitic ideas do not hate jewish people. This is why one can call it "structural".

Khawaga's picture
Khawaga
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Joined: 7-08-06
Aug 17 2008 17:29
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israel ARE murders and the true terrorists

All Israelis are terrorists?