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Israeli plans to cut off east Jerusalem?

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Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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Aug 17 2008 17:38
yoshomon wrote:
I think that it is important to differentiate between anti-semitism - expressed in what you call "anti-finance capital 'zionist conspiracy'" leftism - and anti-jewish racism. The two certainly overlap, but they are different things and operate differently in the world. Most people who propagate anti-semitic ideas do not hate jewish people. This is why one can call it "structural".

i'd agree with that, certainly chimes with my experience

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Ed
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Aug 18 2008 09:10
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Take a gander at these paragraphs from Kevin Keating's article "American Defeat: an anti-state communist perspective on the Iraq war" (hosted on infoshop.org)

And on libcom.org.. embarrassed Might, er, have to take that one down..

EDIT: That said though, re-reading it, I wouldn't say that it is reproducing ZOG theories. He specifies a few times he means the Israeli state, the Israeli ruling class etc. I mean, his analysis is fundamentally wrong (the tail here is definitely not wagging the dog), but looking at it, I wouldn't say it was anti-semetic..

Where's adarcar right now? He'd love this shit..

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Aug 18 2008 09:44

isn't he living on a boat somewhere? Ed, maybe just add a critical intro to the Keating piece?

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Aug 18 2008 10:04

Good idea, done.
http://libcom.org/library/american-defeat-an-anti-state-communist-perspective-on-the-current-war-in-iraq
Too harsh?

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Aug 18 2008 10:44

i think you can lose "of poor quality leftist anti-war propaganda" wink

edit: done, think that covers it without being bitchy

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Aug 18 2008 13:30

On the subject of Kevin Keating, here he is on TV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUYNZA8b9dg
Devrim

yoshomon
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Aug 19 2008 04:43
Ed wrote:
EDIT: That said though, re-reading it, I wouldn't say that it is reproducing ZOG theories.

I'm honestly curious how the paragraphs about Israel are different from ZOG theories.

Iron Column
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Aug 19 2008 00:45

Just curious, how did an "anarcho-communist" get on Bill Maher? And why would they even bother to go on the show?

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Aug 19 2008 05:10
Iron Column wrote:
Just curious, how did an "anarcho-communist" get on Bill Maher? And why would they even bother to go on the show?

I have no idea what this show is, and even less of why someone would want to be on it. The link came from here:
http://www.anti-politics.net/archive/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4684&start=45
There are some comments about it there also.

Devrim

yaya2020
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Aug 19 2008 19:27
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"Most people who propagate anti-semitic ideas do not hate jewish people"

ummmm what?
definition of anti-semitism: hostility to or prejudice against Jews

but i guess the gentile bourgeoisie write the dictionaries

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Aug 19 2008 19:53

that's why we're taling about structural anti-semitism, such as seeing a conspiratorial zionist hand behind everything which by no means implies any hostility to jewish individuals whilst repeating a classic anti-semitic theme.

John Somebody
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Aug 19 2008 22:35
Joseph K. wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
No I don' t . I've been referring to the ones that you criticise. Not the ones you don't. But then you've the cheek to talk as though I'm
talking about all of them, really, , , , , in reply to YOUR criticism, really. Your trying to hide some thing, aren't you ? Oh hang on, do you mean, because I point out that they do have things in common, such as ALL, (as with Jews accross the world, but to a far lesser degree), victims of the process by which Israel was created, and is maintained. IS THAT IT, the bit where Itreat them all as homogenous

so to be clear, you're weren't defending palestinians in general, but only the ones i was criticising, i.e. Hamas/Fatah etc? i'm not trying to misrepresent you, i'm just struggling to follow.

I was defending the Palestinians that you were criticising, but only against the criticism that you were making. Can you really be so stupid, as to need that pointing out to you, or are you just trying to piss me off, perhaps with something like a hope, that I might find more benefit in talking politics to a Gerbil, and leave your closet zio friends untroubled ?

In the meantime, If you try again, (sometime soon,), to reply to anything where I've tried to reason with you, as though you're more of a grown up, I promise to try reasoning with you again ,(Yawn).

Oh, alright, to be going on with, just one thing I'll try again to nail you on; (though it's like trying to nail jelly to a wall), is where I try to get a refutation, or an acknowledgement, that trying to create an artificial zionist majority by means of ethnic "cleansing", involving the creation of an exodus, by means of genocidal massacres, does not nresult in democracy. And thererfore, any attempt to pretend that it is a democracy, by anyone who claims to know what he's talking about, involves zio - foolery. Doesn't it ?

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Aug 20 2008 07:09
John Somebody wrote:
I was defending the Palestinians that you were criticising, but only against the criticism that you were making.

all i've said is hamas/fatah et al are nationalist gangsters we shouldn't be supporting, and your counter-'argument' seems to be 'but they're oppressed by natzis.' that's apologetics pure and simple, and this kind of lesser-evilism is anyhow incoherent. For starters actual nazis oppressed stalinists, should we have supported stalinism? and in taking the side of the militarily weaker nationalist gang, shouldn't you be siding with the IDF against hizb'allah after their defeat in lebanon? my argument is very simple, no amount of oppression should lead us to side with (would-be/lesser-)oppressors. if you're on the ground, it's still wrong but more understandable. if you're cheerleding from a safe distance there really is no excuse.

John Somebody wrote:
Oh, alright, to be going on with, just one thing I'll try again to nail you on; (though it's like trying to nail jelly to a wall), is where I try to get a refutation, or an acknowledgement, that trying to create an artificial zionist majority by means of ethnic "cleansing", involving the creation of an exodus, by means of genocidal massacres, does not nresult in democracy. And thererfore, any attempt to pretend that it is a democracy, by anyone who claims to know what he's talking about, involves zio - foolery. Doesn't it ?

it is perfectly possible for a state to commit ethnic cleansing and have all the basic features of a bourgeois democracy (for jews, as has been pointed out). for the nth time, this is in no way an endorsement, merely a statement of reality.

you do seem very attached to the notion that (bourgeois) democracy = good and 'natzism' = evil, which really is exactly the kind of taking sides between bourgeois factions i've been consistently arguing against. both bourgeois democracy and fascism are forms of class rule, both murderous when they have to be, and as a libertarian communist i'm opposed to both. just because i oppose your favoured nationalists doesn't mean i must secretly support their nationalist adversaries. if someone came on here arguing we should support the IDF defending israelis against 'natzi' hizb'allah rocket attacks i'd make the same arguments.

i'm not sure if you just don't understand my argument or are actually disagreeing with me, but you are coming off a bit mental screaming zionist at someone who keeps condemning the israeli state as murderous. for what it's worth it's also a fallacious (non-)argument.

John Somebody
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Aug 22 2008 21:27

Attention, please, Joseph K
Before I spend a little more serious time flaying you, (hopefully after the weekend), here's another attempt to cut more diirectly, and quickly, through your crap. Are you saying that creating a political majority by means of ethnic "cleansing", and genocide, in a place where the resulting majority win elections, results in the democratic rule, by that majority, or not ? Please, no more wriggling, does it, or doesn't it ?

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Aug 22 2008 22:57
Quote:
Before I spend a little more serious time flaying you, (hopefully after the weekend)

LOL

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Aug 22 2008 23:01
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Are you saying that creating a political majority by means of ethnic "cleansing", and genocide, in a place where the resulting majority win elections, results in the democratic rule, by that majority, or not ? Please, no more wriggling, does it, or doesn't it ?

He's saying perfectly clearly that Israel is a liberal democratic state, and that liberal democratic states are fully capable of total barbarism - something which you seem incapable of comprehending.

Whether liberal democratic societies ever actually involve any meaningful form of collective decision making is another question (and the answer is no, as they are bourgeois societies).

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Aug 23 2008 15:31

Inappropriately continued on the welcoming thread, directed towards John Somebody:

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I fail to see what your problem is in [this] thread. Can't you grasp that we class struggle libertarians (?) consider liberal democracy just a point on the liberal-fascist see-saw that most societies go through? Show me a liberal democracy that doesn't fascisize as soon as war or "national security" is on the line. We see liberal democracy a misnomer. It paints a picture that is opposite to its practice, unless one self-censors one-self to a great degree.

Israel is as much a liberal democracy as the US (Iraq, PATRIOT ACT, Vietnam, Korea, Jim Crow laws, slavery, ethnic cleansing of the native population), the UK (de jure and de facto in control of hundreds of milions throughout the world, most of which couldn't vote) or France (same) are. What's pro-Zionist about that?

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Aug 25 2008 10:27
Django wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
Are you saying that creating a political majority by means of ethnic "cleansing", and genocide, in a place where the resulting majority win elections, results in the democratic rule, by that majority, or not ? Please, no more wriggling, does it, or doesn't it ?

He's saying perfectly clearly that Israel is a liberal democratic state, and that liberal democratic states are fully capable of total barbarism - something which you seem incapable of comprehending.

Whether liberal democratic societies ever actually involve any meaningful form of collective decision making is another question (and the answer is no, as they are bourgeois societies).

^ ^ ^

John Somebody
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Sep 15 2008 05:13
Joseph K. wrote:
Django wrote:
John Somebody wrote:
Are you saying that creating a political majority by means of ethnic "cleansing", and genocide, in a place where the resulting majority win elections, results in the democratic rule, by that majority, or not ? Please, no more wriggling, does it, or doesn't it ?

He's saying perfectly clearly that Israel is a liberal democratic state, and that liberal democratic states are fully capable of total barbarism - something which you seem incapable of comprehending.

On the contrary, I understand and agree with the point , that states with a degree of democracy are capable of such barbarism. You however don't seem capable of understanding 3 points, 1.That I'm not contesting that. 2, that ELECTORAL FRAUD, is ANTI - DEMOCRATIC. Or you understand that perfectly well, and, like the friend of the schoolyard bully, keeps pointing the finger at other bullies, (whose bullying has not involved 60 years of overt genocidal ethnic "cleansing"), and then accusing a critic of the genocidal maniac bully, of being " incapable of comprehending". Are you fucking real? I suppose that's another question you won't answer. And 3, that being a friend of the genocidal maniac zionist bully, (by defending it, with disingenuous, distorting, wriggling finger pointing at other bullies), makes you yourself, a zionist. To reply to my question on genocide and democracy, with finger pointing, at someone else,is a reply, but not an answer. So, answer. Or to put it another way, is creating an artificial majority, in order to, (amongst other things), create an artificial majority before elections, ELECTORAL FRAUD, OR NOT ? IS KILLING / ETHNIC "CLEANSING" THOSE WHO WOULD OTHERWISE BE A MAJORITY, TO CREATE AN ARTIFICIAL MAJORITY, DEMOCRATIC, OR IS IT, (amongst other things), ELECTORAL FRAUD ? If your answer to either of these questions is, a "NO", then tell me why, not why other bullies who do not kill daily, for months on end, to maintain their electoral majorities, are also not democratic
I owe you an apology, for not delivering your promised flaying sooner or completely. Health problems have caused a delay in fulfilling my commitments to the Fed, and to refugee groups, so I've had to delay. And the much needed rest for my typing RSI still hasn't resulted in it going away, for which reason I'll have to cut this post right back. I'll have to abando the list of quotes of questions, which you've failed to answer, tell you that there's about 1/2 a doz, , point you in the direction this, and the previous 3 pages, and inform you that the questions are the words with a ? mark at the end. There are some ,that to other people, would be merely rhetorical, though quite sincere, ( as with the above one on electoral fraud). But as you seem incapable of accepting what seems axiomatic to me, this necessitates the requiring of an answer. Please don't repeat you distortions about not condoning what you call a democracy. I've told you before, more than once, that I wasn't saying that your untruth about Israeli "democraxcy" was an an approval, but it's a "fucking lie". Your persistance in the pretence that I've said that,despite having been corrected, seems indicative that you know that what your saying is untrue. So, heres another question for you. Why do you persist in this lie ?

admin: fixed quote formatting for clarity

John Somebody
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Sep 15 2008 05:26
Joseph K wrote:
do you see yourself as some kind of psychoanalyst revealing my repressed zionism? because you're just coming off as paranoid. i mean this is like responding to reasoned arguments with 'yeah, but secretly you eat children don't you.'

No, just as someone looking for the truth. As for the truth as to what motivates you, remind me, how many times have you accused me of being motivated by guilt, or of having some kind of guilt obsession?, Ah yes, I think I can see some hypocrisy based zio bullshitology wriggling going on due to your inner conflict between the urge to wriggle away from the truth, and your desire for release from you delusions. But then hypocrisy is I suppose, to be expected from a zionist, as a matter of course
If I'm not allowed to look at / question your motives, then I won't find find a more generous explanation, as to why you persist in defending zio untruths, other than you doing so, knowingly, which would make you a zionist liar, so that's what I'll attack you for. Of course, if I find a more innocent explanation, with or without your invitation, then I'll hopefully proceed in a less unfriendly manner

John Somebody
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Sep 15 2008 04:42
Joseph K. wrote:
e.g. hezbollah provoking the lebanon war
John Somebody wrote:
Oh, yes,? So which war do you think was provoked by Hizbollah ? Do you agree with zionist liars that the last one was caused by Hizbollah, "kidnapping" 2 Israeli soldiers. This rather than Israeli provocation. This including the kidnapping and torturing many Lebanese over years, with no way to get them released but for Hizbollah, to take combattant Israelis as prisoners, and bargain for them, "provoking" that war? The old zionasty trick, of provoking someone, untill they react, providing the excuse for zionists like you to claim Israel is being provoked. Allowing for more Israeli terror, and what Israel needs; artificially created fear and the militarization of its society All this, alledgedly with zionasties waiting for the excuse to bomb the shit out of Lebanon, with the aim of disabling Hizbollah, before U.S./Israeli action against Iran. Are you perhaps so engrossed with studying your own lower intestines and local politics with the excuse that you can't do anything about what's happening internationally, that you don't know whose provoking who? Didn't you know, that's what the representatives of anti - autonomy want ? Perhaps I should stop asking you questions, or just start numbering them.What do you think ? OOps, there's another one

which questions have i not answered and have in fact been 'blown out of the water' by you? confused i'm really not following you. but then i'm just pulling dirty zionist tricks to make you go round in circles roll eyes you still haven't responded to why nazism is an innacurate and counterproductive analogy except to say it's 'neo' and therefore a bit different. and ffs it's spelt 'nazi', there's no such thing as a 'natzi,' it makes you sound even more hysterical spelling it wrong.

See my above post, regarding pages 2 to 5, as to unanswered questions, please.
On the matter of neo - natzism, I,ve answered this more than once. Here's another question for you. Have you not noticed my statements on the, "state practitioners of genocide"? I thought you had, as you seem to have been replying to them, even though you've not answered very much at all. I do hope you're not going to start swimming in the bullshit about natzis having to be national "socialists".

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Sep 15 2008 08:44

Seriously like, why are you continuing to argue when your viewpoint has been so roundly thrashed? Just let the thread die cos reading your posts is just toe-curlingly embarrassing.

John Somebody
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Sep 15 2008 14:27
Rob Ray wrote:
Seriously like, why are you continuing to argue when your viewpoint has been so roundly thrashed? Just let the thread die cos reading your posts is just toe-curlingly embarrassing.

Does that mean that you think electoral fraud is a tool of democracy, when its used by zionists?

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Sep 15 2008 15:14

No I think you've been comprehensively shown to be a loon. Over five pages of reasoned debate vrs mad rants and accusations that everyone who doesn't agree with you is some sort of zionist tool.

Ban please.

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Sep 15 2008 15:31
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On the contrary, I understand and agree with the point , that states with a degree of democracy are capable of such barbarism. You however don't seem capable of understanding 3 points, 1.That I'm not contesting that. 2, that ELECTORAL FRAUD, is ANTI - DEMOCRATIC. Or you understand that perfectly well, and, like the friend of the schoolyard bully, keeps pointing the finger at other bullies, (whose bullying has not involved 60 years of overt genocidal ethnic "cleansing"), and then accusing a critic of the genocidal maniac bully, of being " incapable of comprehending". Are you fucking real? I suppose that's another question you won't answer. And 3, that being a friend of the genocidal maniac zionist bully, (by defending it, with disingenuous, distorting, wriggling finger pointing at other bullies), makes you yourself, a zionist.

To be seriously worried about electoral fraud being "anti-democratic" would mean that we'd think that liberal democracies themselves are "democratic". The recognition that they aren't is pretty common to being an anarchist/libertarian communist, the perspective of the site you're posting these hysterical "flayings" on. Electoral fraud is pretty common in Britain and the US too. I don't see what this has to do with zionsm or "natzism". Liberal democracy is a specific form of government characterised by certain institutional norms and arrangements. Accountability and meaningful popular decision making, democratic control of daily life, etc, doesnt figure into that.

Do you actually think that the "bullying" of Western Imperialist powers has not involved crimes greater to those of the Israeli state? Thats pretty out of touch. The death toll in Iraq is greater than the current population of the Gaza strip. Thats in five years.

How does the comment ignore the other "bullies"? Following the metaphor of your playground fantasy, It points out that bullying is structural to their status as bullies. Foaming at the mouth at the relatively small crimes of the Jewish bully, and thinking that this is due to a congenital "zio-natzism" lacking in the rest is surely more inconsistent.

Out of interest, who are you responding to? Because the above was my first proper post on the thread, so I don't see how I can "repeat my distortions" in it.

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Sep 15 2008 16:51

About the only thing I agree with JS on and disagree with JK on is that Hezbollah did not provoke the war. What happened back then, with Hezbollah "kidnapping"/taking prisoners of a couple of soldiers, is nothing out the ordinary. These sorts of things used to happen all the time and that kidnappings would get resolved through a prisoner/dead bodies swap. What was the exception that time was Israel's response.

But JS, please try to actually read and think about the other posts rather than just having your kneejerk responses (or paranoid rants), accusing anyone who doesn't single out the Israeli state for special treatment as a Zionist.

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Sep 15 2008 19:14
Khawaga wrote:
About the only thing I agree with JS on and disagree with JK on is that Hezbollah did not provoke the war. What happened back then, with Hezbollah "kidnapping"/taking prisoners of a couple of soldiers, is nothing out the ordinary. These sorts of things used to happen all the time and that kidnappings would get resolved through a prisoner/dead bodies swap. What was the exception that time was Israel's response.

I think I've already argued that with you. Just a few weeks prior to that prisoner-taking expedition, Israel responded very heavily and violently to prisoner-taking by Hamas/some random Palestinian gang in Gaza. Nasrallah could well have expected such a severe response.

John Somebody
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Sep 15 2008 20:17
Rob Ray wrote:
No I think you've been comprehensively shown to be a loon. Over five pages of reasoned debate vrs mad rants and accusations that everyone who doesn't agree with you is some sort of zionist tool.

Ban please.

Baseless namecalling, (and I've provided explanation for why anyone here fits the label of zionist) still doesn't face the issue of whether or not creating an artificial political majority, of any sort, prior to an election, amounts to electioral fraud. Election fraud, in case you didn't know, is anti - democratic. As I'm sure it's commonly labelled as such, when any other country does it ,there has to be a reason, why Israel gets away with it. And for anyone to point to anti - democratic practices in other countries, doesn't detract from the fact that a zionist majority in what is called Israel could only exist, and continue to exist by genocide, and ethnic "cleansing". What you funnily enough refer to as, "reasoned debate", does not disprove any of this, and instead, closet zionists here close ranks and point at other regimes and criticise me for not accepting excuse making in defence of Israel, as, "reasoned" anything

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Sep 15 2008 20:44

Yeah, you're blaming everyone on here for defending Israel, while you're obviously defending pretty much every nation-state other than Israel. So who's defending more ruling-class tools?

John Somebody
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Sep 15 2008 21:10

To be seriously worried about electoral fraud being "anti-democratic" would mean that we'd think that liberal democracies themselves are "democratic". The recognition that they aren't is pretty common to being an anarchist/libertarian communist, the perspective of the site you're posting these hysterical "flayings" on. Electoral fraud is pretty common in Britain and the US too.

John Somebody wrote: Diebold trickery and shitting on Ulster Catholics, etc, is hardly comparable with 60 years of genocidal ethnic "cleansing" How many British/U.S. victims of anti - democratic practises do you know of, who get deprived of a vote with a tank shell through their living room ?

Django wrote:
Do you actually think that the "bullying" of Western Imperialist powers has not involved crimes greater to those of the Israeli state? Thats pretty out of touch. The death toll in Iraq is greater than the current population of the Gaza strip. Thats in five years.

John Somebody wrote: Are you saying the death toll in Iraq, is justification for perpetuating the lie that Israel is a democracy ? It's not ! Of course such crimes in Iraq are greater, and those crimes are part of a bigger scenario, the same scenario, that Israel is part of. None of that detracts from the fact that the part that Israel plays, involves pretending before the players in world opinion. The part where Israel appears to be civilised, to defuse a boycott campaign, so that the future of Israel may be secured, and its role in destabilising the Middle East. can continue, and the greater crimes ahead, financed by the international petrodollar tax, also. The lie that its a democracy, is one of the oppositions most blatant pieces of brainwashing, and therefore is important for activists, as an opportunity to prove to people, that they have been brainwashed.

Django wrote:
How does the comment ignore the other "bullies"? Following the metaphor of your playground fantasy, It points out that bullying is structural to their status as bullies. Foaming at the mouth at the relatively small crimes of the Jewish bully, and thinking that this is due to a congenital "zio-natzism" lacking in the rest is surely more inconsistent.

John Somebody wrote:Where have I said anything about ignoring other bullies ? I've said that the finger pointing trick, is about pointing the finger at them, diverting focus away from something that was being criticised, and to try making someone lose the thread of what the criticism was.

Django wrote: Out of interest, who are you responding to? Because the above was my first proper post on the thread, so I don't see how I can "repeat my distortions" in it.

John Somebody wrote: You seem not to have noticed that your post was quoted by Joseph K. My reply to him, is what you've replied to above. His distortions were those I referred to