No2EU "British Jobs for British workers"

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Devrim

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May 18 2009 08:08

From CPGB:

CPGB wrote:

No 2 EU looks to Far Right for Votes
Facebook (FB) is a peculiar world occupied by office workers, students and the unemployed. On it you can follow the latest intrigues of this or that friend, stalk the weirdest sectarians and at times find out somebody’s politics by where they post. The RMT, the Stalinist CPB and the “Trotskyist” Socialist Party of England and Wales (SPEW) have gone to lengths to try and convince us that the No2EU campaign is not right wing, not anti immigrant and certainly is not nationalist! FB exposes these claims as nothing but lies.
Leading Cardiff SPEW member X has been doing his best to promote No2EU on FB, nothing wrong in that. The problem is, he is promoting them on far right, nationalist, racist and BNP controlled pages. Pages such as ‘British jobs for British people’, ‘get foreign labour out of Britain’, ‘UK jobs for UK workers’. The demands of these groups centre around getting foreigners out of the UK. For those who think we are making this up, have a look hereat a copy of some of the pages he has been posting on. On these pages apart from posting links he posted this message:
‘British jobs for british workers and Italian jobs for Italian workers. The only reason the EU has such a large migrant workforce is to drive down workers wages and increase profits for the super rich. Vote no2eu on June the 4th.’
So much for a workers’ Europe then. Such slogans would find a loving home in the BNP and nationalists parties across Europe. Did he forget about internationalism?
So many of us on the revolutionary Left have been repulsed by this campaign, we have been called sectarians and all of the other usual crap internationalists get called. It is doubtful that X is the only one, and is certainly not a loose cannon, he is leading cadre. When we said that No2EU is nothing more than little England politics dressed up in trade union clothes we never expected SPEW members to campaign on nationalist, far right and BNP controlled sites and pages. SPEW members need to sit up and wake up, good socialists are being dragged into a nationalist adventure by Left bureaucrats and vile opportunists.

Name and photo removed. Source: http://communiststudents.org.uk/2009/05/no-2-eu-looks-to-far-right-for-votes/

Devrim

Caiman del Barrio

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May 18 2009 09:26

What's your point? It's quite clearly sectarianism. Fuck the CPGB, bunch of loser mentalist cultists anyway.

Steven.

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May 18 2009 10:05

I've seen hardly any. One at the bottom of my road alongside a socialist party poster.

As for the article above, while it's not as if I find this that unbelievable, but I would want to see it and hear the blokes explanation for it before coming to a decision.

I mean purely on practical grounds I wouldn't have thought that a sane person would bother canvassing for votes amongst fascists, simply because there aren't many fascists to get votes from

Caiman del Barrio

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May 18 2009 10:12

Steven. wrote:

As for the article above, while it's not as if I find this that unbelievable, but I would want to see it and hear the blokes explanation for it before coming to a decision.

...and also bear in mind the motives of the author. And how disgusting it looks to an ostensibly impartial observer like myself (posting someone's Facebook details and photo alongside a denunciation on the internet???)

Actually, scrub disgusting, it's just typical insular leftist shite which is probably within the remit of the likes of ICC and Revleft, but not really relevant to Libcom.

(Reply to #5)

Caiman del Barrio

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May 18 2009 10:15

I'd assume that the CPGB are basically jealous of the apparent popularity of this other group's electioneering tactics.

capricorn

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May 18 2009 12:45

Jack wrote:

To be fair mate, it is pretty shocking if SP members are canvasing for No2EU on those lines.
On a tangent - has anyone actually seen any real world No2EU stuff? I've heard about it over the internet from the usual lefty sources etc, but I have literally seen nothing in the real world - not one leaflet, not one poster. And yet Brighton has a pretty large SP branch, and we always hear about the stuff they are up to - my guess was that the branch (and presumably others) were pretty unenthusiastic about this little adventure?

Yes, in the Morning Star everyday. No2EU is a peculiar coalition between Stalinists and Trotskyites (as the Stalinists used to call them as well as Hitlerites). It not clear who's in the driving seat: the CPB or SPEW.

What do people here make of this passage from the No2EU website:

Quote:

The anger amongst workers over the race to the bottom on jobs, pay and working conditions by companies exploiting the recession and the hiring and firing of overseas workers is now turning into a national fightback. That’s why I will be joining with our colleagues from the construction industry on the gates of the Olympic site in Stratford on Wednesday morning to show full support and solidarity,” Bob Crow said today.

A race to the bottom to win BJFBW votes from the BNP?

(Reply to #4)

Demogorgon303

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May 18 2009 13:06

Capricorn, I think you bolded the wrong bit in Crow's nonsense. It's the "national fightback" conception that is the most significant to me.

Caiman del Barrio

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May 18 2009 14:56

Look at their site banner.

Seriously, they look like they're on their way to a Star Trek convention. Fuck off, you fucking freak idiots with your careerist networking and insular bickerings.

capricorn

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May 18 2009 15:48

Isn't NO2 a toxic gas?

#10

Wellclose Square

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May 18 2009 16:07

Quote:

Capricorn, I think you bolded the wrong bit in Crow's nonsense. It's the "national fightback" conception that is the most significant to me.

That bit jumped out at me, too - 'national fightback' sounds like the name of a right-wing group or a Nazi 'Oi!' band.

#11

Entdinglichung

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May 18 2009 16:24

Quote:

Capricorn: Isn't NO2 a toxic gas?

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide#Safety_and_pollution_considerations

(Reply to #14)

#12

Farce

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May 18 2009 16:55

Wellclose Square wrote:

Quote:

Capricorn, I think you bolded the wrong bit in Crow's nonsense. It's the "national fightback" conception that is the most significant to me.

That bit jumped out at me, too - 'national fightback' sounds like the name of a right-wing group or a Nazi 'Oi!' band.

I think you might be over-reacting a bit there. I don't think that, in itself, saying "national fightback" is any dodgier than saying "local fightback" or "Europe-wide fightback". It could perfectly well just neutrally refer to a fightback waged on a local level rather than a fightback with specifically nationalist intentions, and I could definitely believe that's how it's used here. Still doesn't stop the campaign as a whole being shit, tho.

(Reply to #15)

#13

Wellclose Square

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May 18 2009 19:43

Quote:

Farce
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Wellclose Square wrote:
Quote:

Capricorn, I think you bolded the wrong bit in Crow's nonsense. It's the "national fightback" conception that is the most significant to me.

That bit jumped out at me, too - 'national fightback' sounds like the name of a right-wing group or a Nazi 'Oi!' band.

I think you might be over-reacting a bit there. I don't think that, in itself, saying "national fightback" is any dodgier than saying "local fightback" or "Europe-wide fightback". It could perfectly well just neutrally refer to a fightback waged on a local level rather than a fightback with specifically nationalist intentions, and I could definitely believe that's how it's used here. Still doesn't stop the campaign as a whole being shit, tho.

Yeah, sorry, I was being gratuitously facetious.

#14

Wellclose Square

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May 18 2009 19:45

Quote:

Yeah, sorry, I was being gratuitously facetious.

...and pretty hopeless at editing quotes.

#15

Demogorgon303

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May 19 2009 07:14

Quote:

I don't think that, in itself, saying "national fightback" is any dodgier than saying "local fightback" or "Europe-wide fightback".

I'm not too fond of those either. World revolution all the way.

#16

25past1984

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May 19 2009 08:41

maybe just a tactic to curtail the number of bnp votes by muddying the waters for those that are only just wavering on the brink of voting for them.

there are a lot of people out there now for whom the slogan 'british jobs for british workers' is a comforting one and who are not entirely happy with voting bnp.

this gives them an option to make a statement at the ballot box without doing so.

obviously some other political grouping will capitalise on this.

it's all politricks.

#17

baboon

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May 19 2009 13:13

"National fightback" is a very specific statement that refers to the nation, defence of the nation and so on. All the world's leading politicians are talking about "national fightbacks" in one way or another and from the lips of this (or any other) trade union leader, the phrase is explicitly nationalist - just as nationalist as "British jobs for British workers" and just as nationalist as the nationalisations are that the unions and the left call for as part of the "national fightback".

#18

capricorn

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May 19 2009 15:36

I tend to agree with Farce that you're over-reacting here. I think they just mean a nation-wide struggle as opposed to a local one, and not a national-ist struggle. They're not that bad. Having said that, as BJFBW is a popular slogan which would probably get carried in a referendum, there's scope here for vote-catching if you're in that business as No2EU are. Not that I suspect they'll get many.

#19

Farce

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May 19 2009 18:34

Demogorgon wrote:

I'm not too fond of those either. World revolution all the way.

Yeah, but I think you have to accept that some issues are more likely to be fought on a local/national scale, at least in the short term. I'd be well pleased if there was a huge protest in London over my local bus fares increasing, but I think any resistance on that front is more likely to be a local fightback, at least for now, which is far more positive than no fightback at all. Likewise, it'd be great if there was a massive protest in France (or India, or Ghana for that matter) against the British government's benefit "reforms", but I think that's more likely to be waged as a national fightback.
Of course, none of this messing around with semantics means that No2EU aren't a bunch of dicks, obviously they're wrong, but I think it's unhelpful to assume that everything they say is always going to be totally 100% wrong.

Also, 25past1984, this is totally irrelevant to your actual post, but what flag is that? I can't even tell if it's black and orange or black and brown, but I wouldn't have very positive associations with either colour.

#20

25past1984

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May 19 2009 19:59

it's supposed to be orange. i got the idea from a site discussing @-mutualism.

i just find it useful to differentiate myself from established schools of thought, i'm not in 100% agreement with any of them. i'm a pick and mixist. most of my views i have through life experience and intuition. although i do firmly believe that any beneficial , long term change in society will evolve into place . darwinian anarchism ?

so , neither black,red/black nor green/ black but orange/black.

just out of interest what are the un-positive thoughts you have about the colour?

#21

Skips

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May 19 2009 21:08

25past1984 wrote:

it's supposed to be orange. i got the idea from a site discussing @-mutualism.
i just find it useful to differentiate myself from established schools of thought, i'm not in 100% agreement with any of them. i'm a pick and mixist. most of my views i have through life experience and intuition. although i do firmly believe that any beneficial , long term change in society will evolve into place . darwinian anarchism ?

so , neither black,red/black nor green/ black but orange/black.

just out of interest what are the un-positive thoughts you have about the colour?

Resembles poo colour...

(Reply to #25)

#22

Rob Ray

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May 19 2009 21:15

It's not far off the Yellow and Black of 'anarcho' capitalism.

Yeah there's been a lot of advertising it in the Star, I get the impression a load of leftie egos have banded together to try and get around the fact they can't do fuck all on their own - bit of a wannabe new Socialist Alliance with about the same chances long term. Mostly harmless.

#23

Devrim

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May 20 2009 01:30

Farce wrote:

Wellclose Square wrote:

Quote:

Capricorn, I think you bolded the wrong bit in Crow's nonsense. It's the "national fightback" conception that is the most significant to me.

That bit jumped out at me, too - 'national fightback' sounds like the name of a right-wing group or a Nazi 'Oi!' band.

I think you might be over-reacting a bit there. I don't think that, in itself, saying "national fightback" is any dodgier than saying "local fightback" or "Europe-wide fightback". It could perfectly well just neutrally refer to a fightback waged on a local level rather than a fightback with specifically nationalist intentions, and I could definitely believe that's how it's used here. Still doesn't stop the campaign as a whole being shit, tho.

I think it is sort of on the line. 'National' can imply a geographical area, such as in the term 'national strike'. It can also imply something with national characteristics such as in 'national liberation movement'. I think that national fightback is ambiguous.

Devrim

(Reply to #17)

#24

Devrim

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May 20 2009 01:55

Caiman del Barrio wrote:

What's your point? It's quite clearly sectarianism.

I think that it was a relevant thing to post. I don't think that there is anything wrong with knowing what groups like the socialist party are coming out with. In fact I think that it is quite important.

But then I think that the leftist groups are quite important. I think that the next few years will see a large scale resurge for Trotskyism, and that communist should be able to argue against these groups ideas, not just on abstract questions of what they happened in the Russian revolution, but about what they are doing on the ground today.

The 'British jobs for British workers' argument is an important one. It is raised by all of the bourgeois parties, and disseminated widely in the media. It has also found resonance within the working class, finding a very vocal expression at Lindsey. Was that 'typical insular leftist shite'? I believe that there were Socialist Party members involved in the strikes there. I didn't see any anarchist or left communist strikers there though. It is a good job that we are avoiding irrelevance.

The CWI groups seem to many workers to be internationalist. However, in their case it is a very thin veil. The Militant's 'nuanced' position on the war in the Falklands back in the 80s was often transformed into 'support our boys' chauvinism on the ground. Today this call for 'democratic independent states' in opposition to the EU is transformed into 'Brithish Jobs for British workers'.

I don't think it 's so wrong to make a short post giving a bit of information on that.

Caiman del Barrio wrote:

Fuck the CPGB, bunch of loser mentalist cultists anyway.

Generally, it is the ruling class who want to portray people who see themselves as communists as 'loser mentalist cultists'. It is good to see you helping them.

Caiman del Barrio wrote:

...and also bear in mind the motives of the author. And how disgusting it looks to an ostensibly impartial observer like myself (posting someone's Facebook details and photo alongside a denunciation on the internet???)

And you would have noticed that I removed the name and photo. What is your point here.

Caiman del Barrio wrote:

Actually, scrub disgusting, it's just typical insular leftist shite which is probably within the remit of the likes of ICC and Revleft, but not really relevant to Libcom.

Never miss a chance to have a dig at the ICC.

Devrim

(Reply to #3)

#25

25past1984

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May 20 2009 02:01

Resembles poo colour.......... lol , yeah it could do with being a brighter orange.

It's not far off the Yellow and Black of 'anarcho' capitalism........... that was the main reasoning behind it. a kind of half way house between ancap gold/yellow and communist/syndicalist red. a middle road- ideal for a pick and mixist.

#26

flaneur

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May 20 2009 12:18

Mutualist...websites? Oh dear.

Has anyone seen that the convenor from Visteon is a candidate for them? Got a leaflet of theirs today, along with the BNP's ironically enough, in the post.

#27

slothjabber

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May 20 2009 11:29

Not sure if there's a 'middle road' between capitalism and communism. Unless it's one where we freely oppress ourselves.

#28

Spassmaschine

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May 20 2009 12:20

slothjabber wrote:

Not sure if there's a 'middle road' between capitalism and communism. Unless it's one where we freely oppress ourselves.

Well lots of mutualists seem to have a hard-on for co-ops, which could be viewed as a form of 'free self-oppression'

(Reply to #32)

#29

IrrationallyAngry

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May 20 2009 15:13

In fact a number of Visteon workers, and a number of LOR workers, are standing on No2EU lists, including the convenors of both Visteon plants in England. And the victimised convenor of the ex-Visteon Linamar plant.

(Reply to #31)

#30

capricorn

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May 20 2009 16:24

I got a leaflet from them through the post too today. It's really terrible. It's Reject this, No to that. Repeal this, Scrap that. The only positive thing they stand for is "Repatriate" -- no, wait, they're not quite as bas as the BNP -- "democratic powers to EU member states". So, when it comes down to it, what they are offering, in the midst of a deep capitalist crisis, is just ... an independent capitalist Britain. I wonder if it was so ironic that yours came with the BNP one. Mine came with UKIPs which also says "Say No to EU control of our lives".

#31

flaneur

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May 20 2009 21:03

I got UKIP's aswell. It was a big bundle of fun this morning for me.

No2EU "British Jobs for British workers"

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