Police murder of black men in Minnesota and Louisiana

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 8, 2016

Yet more police murder of people of color in the States...

On Tuesday, Alton Sterling, who apparently was selling bootleg CDs outside a store in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, was shot and killed by police. It was caught on video.

The next day, Philando Castile, cafeteria worker at St. Paul Public Schools here in the Twin Cities, was shot and killed by police in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. His girlfriend and young daughter were in the car when the cops shot him. Apparently, he had a carry conceal licence and had informed the officer of this, and was shot in response.

There's been a number of street blockades, protests, marches, rallies and politicians calling for federal investigations for both incidents. So much news coming out its hard to keep up.

A few hours ago, in Dallas, 11 police officers were shot by 2 "snipers" during a rally. 3 of them have died...

Hieronymous

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Hieronymous on July 8, 2016

Now 4 have died.

This is crazy. Fucking nuts, especially given assassinations by snipers in Dallas in the past!

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 8, 2016

Yeah this Dallas shit is fucked up and the reporting is very confused right now. Every Black man in all of America will be a target of both police and racists tonight. The cops will rage. Please be safe.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 8, 2016

And meanwhile, this will end up as the national discussion, instead of the unrestrained murder of innocent people of color.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on July 8, 2016

Obviously in the media we see quite a bit of black lives matter but is this actually a national discussion and were things changing?
It's certain a few extra people of colour will be murdered by cops as a result of this although it's not as if cops were shy about killing people beforehand.

gram negative

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by gram negative on July 8, 2016

From my perspective in Baltimore, it has been a 'national' discussion, albeit one that has lost the steam of the actions that once propelled it into the limelight, especially given the recuperation of those who so eagerly put themselves at the head of this movement - Deray Mckesson's candidacy for the mayor of Baltimore, now he will be the head of HR for the Baltimore City School District.

Black Badger

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Black Badger on July 8, 2016

Five fatalities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IST6qRfVqwY

Joseph Kay

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on July 8, 2016

There's been a bunch of 'Blue Lives Matter' bills enhancing police impunity too.

Joseph Kay

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on July 8, 2016

Local media reporting one of the #Dallas shooters identified as white neo-Nazi man Linked to KKK. #BLM— Michelle Clifford (@skynewsmichelle) July 8, 2016

The fact they took the shooters alive, and media's now chatting about unspecified mental illness suggests they are indeed white.

Edit:

Seems reports of neo-nazi shooter also in #Dallas fake. 3 suspects in custody. Unconfirmed reports another suspect shot himself #BLM— Michelle Clifford (@skynewsmichelle) July 8, 2016

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 8, 2016

Honestly I hoped that they were some Turner Diary fantasist due to 1st hand reports of shooters in full body armor and tactical clothing, AR15 etc. Like you said on twitter, it's the least worst option at least in the immediate aftermath. Long term, it's clearly more terrifying.

I sure do hope all the pundits boldly declaring "this is terrorism" stick to their guns.

Edit- just saw edit above. Ugh

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 8, 2016

There was a fairly large rally last night in Atlanta that lasted for a few hours and ended up blocking the interstate downtown.

One of the more interesting things I noticed was that as we marched past restaurants and bars, a lot of the workers had come outside to look at us and were clearly in support. So were the bus drivers whose busses were stopped.

There was also a lot of support from car drivers who'd been stopped.

Juan, any sense what the mood is like among St Paul Public School workers?

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on July 8, 2016

http://www.snopes.com/dallas-shooter-jeffrey-harris-harris/

This message, posted by the "Alt Right Fanfiction" Twitter account, is completely false. The gunman in the Dallas protest shootings has been identified as Micah Xavier Johnson

If the cops shoot more blacks as a result of this more cops will die. Their choice

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on July 8, 2016

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Dallas-Police-Identify-Gunman-in-Dallas-Protest-Shootings-386015971.html

Police said officers cornered Johnson (Micah Xavier Johnson) and negotiated with him for hours before talks broke down. Dallas Police Chief David Brown said Johnson told officers he was upset about recent shootings involving police and "wanted to kill white people. Especially white officers."

After an exchange of gunfire, Brown said officers attached an explosive device to a bomb robot and detonated it near Johnson, killing him.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 8, 2016

Apparently it's the first use of a robot by police to kill, fwiw.

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 8, 2016

So much news about Dallas I missed that there were some skirmishes with riot police in St. Paul last night. A few arrests. Police cruiser damaged.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on July 8, 2016

Gulai Polye

If the cops shoot more blacks as a result of this more cops will die. Their choice

Do you really believe this?
After those two cops were killed in 2014 the number of people killed by cops didn't seem to go down and I don't have any evidence to hand but I remember someone saying that police violence had increased (although that's so clearly likely that I might be misremebering what I thouht would be the obvious reaction as what actually hapened.)

Copw will stop killing when they start getting punished for it, when they stop etting rewarded for it and when they are no onger encouraged to treat people as less than human, killing some of them will not achieve that. If you kill enough cops so that they're actually scared to be racist then it's possible but you'd need to kill a ot and people get stubborn when under threat.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on July 8, 2016

jef costello

Gulai Polye

If the cops shoot more blacks as a result of this more cops will die. Their choice

Do you really believe this?

Yes if this has not been true in the past, then its because people have not been ready for it. But people are beginning to change their perspective of things and they are getting ready.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 8, 2016

This now deleted tweet from a former congressman was doing the rounds last night. Some background on him here:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-joe-walsh-twitter-dallas-tweet-20160708-story.html

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 8, 2016

But people are beginning to change their perspective of things and they are getting ready

Who? What are they getting ready for? How do you know?

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 8, 2016

With nonsense like what Gulai Polye is throwing around, this is worth a re-read (or a first read):

https://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1972/01/cops.htm
Hal Draper

My target is also not the poor fool, aching with his miseries, who picked up the rifle and might just as well have shot himself in the head as those policemen. My target is the people who told him “all that background.” I refer to the self-styled radicals who, for some years now, have been burbling over with their rhetoric about “offing the pig,” and “picking up the gun,” and “revolution in the streets,” and “urban guerrillas,” and cheering every time somebody else bombs the window of a Bank of America branch, or terrorizes a PG&E power line, or incubates a revolution in a safety-deposit vault, or otherwise takes direct action in terrorism according to the most fashionable doctrines of 1890. Because it has been these bumpkin-blowhards of the Big Bang theory of revolution who have been very successful not in tearing apart the System, but in tearing apart what there was of a radical movement that was aborning.

In the whole history of movements of social dissent, in this or any other country, I doubt whether there was ever an emptier and more self-defeating theory of revolutionary action than this trend in our recent years which made “offing the pig” its main slogan, and orated about making the “revolution in the streets.” Of course, the two come down to the same thing, because if you sally out into the streets to make the revolution, it’s the pigs you’re going to meet. You are not going to run into the Board of Directors of General Motors in this your chosen battlefield, nor into the Cabinet, nor even the office boys of the Powers That Be: the enemy you meet “in the streets” is the hired scum, that’s all. And the cream of the jest is that, for every cop that is killed by some self-styled revolutionary bravo, not a hair is mussed on the head of the ruling class, who have a right to laugh themselves to death over these pseudo-revolutionary antics while, in public, they make a horrified outcry about the crimes of the subversives.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 8, 2016

erica joy

Yesterday after I published this, Stewart reached out to me to say this: “You, or anyone else, can call in Black any day.” Not 3 hours after that, I learned of yet another brutal and senseless shooting of a Black man by a police officer. I did not watch that video either. I cannot. I cannot continue to watch Black people die at the hands of police. And like yesterday, I am grieving, hurting, mourning, aching, worrying, angry, and scared. Unlike yesterday, I will do this in a safe space. Today I am calling in Black.
Today I will give myself the space to grieve for Alton Sterling, Philando Castile, and every other Black person that has been executed and all those that will be executed by the police, until we finally say enough is enough and put an end to the terrorism that we call modern day policing. There has to be a better way. This way that criminalizes blackness is destroying families, communities, and cultures. So while I encourage Black folks to call in Black today, I am encouraging everyone else, especially White folks, to stop shaking your heads, and moaning about the tragedies. I am specifically asking you, White people, to police your police.

I read this last night found it moving. I understand this is about emotional self preservation and totally get it if tactic used only for a sense of space. That said, it Would be amazing to see the idea of "calling in black" spread to collective action.

https://medium.com/@ericajoy/processing-e8bc638aae1a#.go7eclewk

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 8, 2016

Thanks for posting that OliverTwister.

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on July 9, 2016

OliverTwister have you ever wondered what does it actually mean to smash the state?

Gulai Polye

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Gulai Polye on July 9, 2016

Khawaga

But people are beginning to change their perspective of things and they are getting ready

Who? What are they getting ready for? How do you know?

1 The oppressed ones
2 To make up their mind
3 Dont you have your eyes and ears open? Cant you smell it?

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 9, 2016

I don't think any of my senses can detect whether people are making up their minds. I'm no Prof Xavier.

bastarx

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by bastarx on July 9, 2016

Here's a bit of info about the 5 dead cops:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-09/the-five-police-officers-killed-in-dallas-shootings/7583244

Looks like they had all spent most of their adult lives as armed state enforcers. 1 ex-Navy, 1 ex-Army and 1 ex-prison guard.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 9, 2016

Khawaga

I don't think any of my senses can detect whether people are making up their minds. I'm no Prof Xavier.

Of course, you would say that either way, wouldn't you?

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 9, 2016

Not sure if I agree with what Gulai Polye is saying here, but I sort of think that at some point, what happened in Dallas was going to happen. It certainly has happened before during times of high profile racial tension and civil rights movements in swing. Although at this point, we don't really know the motivations of the shooter.

Chilli Sauce

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on July 9, 2016

Dont you have your eyes and ears open? Cant you smell it?

Just to point out, neither eyes nor eyes are particularly useful in olfactory terms.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 9, 2016

I don't think any of my senses can detect whether people are making up their minds. I'm no Prof Xavier.

Khawaga, you have eyes and ears. You can speak with your friends, neighbours, workmates and families. I think you may allow yourself the liberty of gauging their perspectives. I do not know the Professor Xavier with whom you compare yourself but perhaps he could give you some leads.

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on July 9, 2016

Gulai |Polye

Yes if this has not been true in the past, then its because people have not been ready for it. But people are beginning to change their perspective of things and they are getting ready.

This is an assumption and/or wishful thinking based on nothing but - what? Any supporting facts? An idealised view from someone far away in Europe who claims to have a great sense of smell? A desire to see your insurrectionary fantasies played out by others? A very mechanical conception of the process of social change? That a lone gunman is any evidence of a rising class-based social movement that knows "what it actually means to smash the state"?

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 9, 2016

This is an assumption and/or wishful thinking based on nothing but - what? Any supporting facts? An idealised view from someone far away in Europe who claims to have a great sense of smell? A desire to see your insurrectionary fantasies played out by others? A very mechanical conception of the process of social change? That a lone gunman is any evidence of a rising class-based social movement that knows "what it actually means to smash the state"?

If you will excuse me your statement above appears to have as many assumptions about our comrade as you accuse him/her of.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 9, 2016

Pfft, Gulai posted wishful thinking. He appears to mistake the killing of police officers with working class militancy. That's as silly as it gets.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 10, 2016

Here's a bit of info about the 5 dead cops:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-09/the-five-police-officers-killed-in-dallas-shootings/7583244

Looks like they had all spent most of their adult lives as armed state enforcers. 1 ex-Navy, 1 ex-Army and 1 ex-prison guard.

Here is a little information that I have gleaned about Micah Johnson.

He grew up in the working class district of Mesquite, Dallas, with his sister, brother, mother and paternal grandfather. His parents, both workers, separated each other when he was a young boy. His father remarried but lived locally and was in regular contact with his son and first wife. Johnson worked for a sandwich making firm and as an army reservist (he was stationed in Afghanistan). It was in his role as army reservist that he became proficient in the use of firearms.
Source: http://m.smh.com.au/world/dallas-shooting-who-was-micah-xavier-johnson-20160710-gq2j3l.html

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on July 10, 2016

Sch...

If you will excuse me your statement above appears to have as many assumptions about our comrade as you accuse him/her of.

Assumptions are fine - except when they're presented as something more with no evidence beyond the end of your nose. See those question marks after my assumptions? They're saying, 'am I right?'

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 10, 2016

Yes Red, I suppose the fact that one lone proletarian was charged with the task of countering state sponsored terrorism single handedly is a sign of our weakness, not a sign of our strength. Needs must

Chilli Sauce

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on July 10, 2016

one lone proletarian was charged with the task of countering state sponsored terrorism single handedly

Wait, who charged him to do that?

Red Marriott

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Red Marriott on July 10, 2016

Hopefully every new generation is not condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past (though politicos often seem the most determined to do so). This seems relevant;
James Carr

In his Conclusion, he illustrates how the "guerrilla ideology" that gradually came to dominate the party ("the purely military resolution of power relations") is ultimately suicidal and futile both in and outside prison, and he blames the left, in part, for their role in encouraging this "false consciousness" in radical cons and ex-cons. In particular he refers to the murder of George Jackson and the Attica prison massacre of 1971 as examples of the practical consequences of this ideology. As he says, "Guerrilla ideology reduces all revolutionary questions to quantitative problems of military force" and "nothing could please the reactionary prison official more than a fight to the finish." http://libcom.org/library/james-carr-black-panthers-all-that

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 10, 2016

Armed, angry loners in the United States find many reasons to attack people. It's not surprising that within the context of constant high-profile police brutality one would find his reason. It's not worth celebrating, but I'm not going to weep for police officers, either. It's also not going to stop police from killing people, either. If anything, quite the opposite. I imagine Dallas will used as a push to further militarize the police.

One thing I haven't seen in this thread but have seen article on is that the DPD's use of a bomb disposal robot to kill Micah Johnson is a first in the U.S., with potentially alarming consequences.

Anyway, last night in St. Paul, protesters blocked I-94 for hours.

It seems like the police tried to eventually force them off, and that's when the clashes began. The crowd threw rocks, bottles and fireworks.

Police responded with smoke grenades

and tear gas

There's some photos of protestors tossing bricks and rocks at police around this time but I'm not going to post them.

Eventually the interstate was cleared, after being blocked off for 5 hours.

All in all, 100+ people arrested. 20something officers "hurt".

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 10, 2016

one lone proletarian was charged with the task of countering state sponsored terrorism single handedly

Wait, who charged him to do that?

His conscience.

P.S. Perhaps Micah was too impatient to wait for One Big Union to redeem the American working class from the daily atrocities committed against it. 'Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice.' My heart goes out to his loved ones; as for the families of the dead officers: they're better off without them. No?

PROLETARIAN LIVES MATTER

MERCENARIES DON'T COUNT FOR SHIT

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 10, 2016

Writing proletarian lives matter is basically the same as writing all lives matter.

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 11, 2016

Like, I said, I'm not going to weep for those officers, but the glorification of spree killers and indirect murderous retaliation reminds me of the sort of politics that lead to mass liquidation of 'enemies' and gulags. I just don't find individual and atomized acts of terror all that appealing, and although they have a long history in far-left politics, their spectacular, disastrous failure has as long a history.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

JC wrote:

Like, I said, I'm not going to weep for those officers, but the glorification of spree killers and indirect murderous retaliation reminds me of the sort of politics that lead to mass liquidation of 'enemies' and gulags. I just don't find individual and atomized acts of terror all that appealing, and although they have a long history in far-left politics, their spectacular, disastrous failure has as long a history.

I haven't observed any glorification of Micah Xavier Johnson. Even the Black nationalist caucus has denied any connection with his action and I'm not sure whether his actions can be ascribed to politics ("far-left" or otherwise).

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

Khawaga:

Writing proletarian lives matter is basically the same as writing all lives matter.

Not really Khawaga. One is a classist slogan, the other is humanist. I wouldn't chose either: I was simply counterposing the liberal claptrap of Black Lives Matter..

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 11, 2016

Calling "Black Lives Matter" liberal claptrap is basically the same as writing all lives matter.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

You've certainly twisted my head, Oliver: I can't get my head round that.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 11, 2016

Not really Khawaga. One is a classist slogan, the other is humanist. I wouldn't chose either: I was simply counterposing the liberal claptrap of Black Lives Matter..

Then you are completely missing the point. And missing such a point is partly the reason why anarchism is so fucking white.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

These young men are not being murdered because of their skin tone but because of their social class.

Khawaga, I think anarchism is black, not white: in it's origins and in it's destiny.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 11, 2016

These young men are not being murdered because of their skin tone but because of their social class.

Really? Are you that blind? Is this some version of "I don't see colour"? This is precisely the sort of bs that makes people of colour or indigenous people say: I don't really feel that anarchism is speaking to or can explain my experience. Class can't, and a class analysis can only become better by recognising that how class domination is articulated is through various oppression based on race, gender etc.

Khawaga, I think anarchism is black, not white: in it's origins and in it's destiny

That's cool that you think it, but when I use my eyes when I go to anarchist meetings, book fairs, and events, anarchism looks pretty fucking white (and male). And going by some of the comments that have been posted on Libcom the last few weeks, anarchism has its fair share of straight up racists.

Fleur

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on July 11, 2016

These young men are not being murdered because of their skin tone but because of their social class.

You have to be joking, and tbh, you're really not funny.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

Do you use 'racist' in the English or the French sense? If by racist, you are insinuating that I discriminate on the basis of race (the English sense) then you are wrong. If, on the other hand, you are using the term in the French sense – that I believe in the existence of separate races – in that case you are correct. I believe our species to have two separate origins: Asiatic and African. The extent to which I believe this to be significant is minimal. At this point, on my side of the tracks, we are a hotchpotch.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 11, 2016

If by racist, you are insinuating that I discriminate on the basis of race (the English sense) then you are wrong.

I wasn't insinuating that you're a racist, but that posters like Kinzog and Zeronowhere who posted some really vile racist shit here a few weeks back are out and out racists. I think you are just a bit confused and resort to some very crude class reductionism.

But are you going to answer some of the points I made or are you just trying to divert the discussion?

Fleur

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on July 11, 2016

I don't know, in my francophone home everyone knows exactly what raciste means.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

Sorry Khawaga, I misread what you wrote. I don't deny being confused at times but it is through our confusion that we gain clarity. Now to answer your points.

The categories you mention (race, gender) are not the cause of our oppression. They are just used to facilitate our oppression. Until relatively recently in history, skin tone or sex was not a determining factor in deciding who is oppressed and who is oppressor.

In ancient class societies – Mesopotamia, for example – the color of a person's skin was the result of their place in that society, not a cause. The laboring class were described as "black", the appropriating class as "white". This was because, in a primarily agrarian society, work literally blackened one's complexion.

Things changed with the dawn of the modern era. Then, due to the European slave trade (primarily a trade in Africans), a new racist ideology was promulgated to legitimise the trade in our own species. It should be noted that in the part of Europe that I reside, race was never the sole determinant of slavery. Here, agricultural laborers were referred to as "white slaves".

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

I don't know, in my francophone home everyone knows exactly what raciste means.

And equally, they know what "football" means.

Fleur

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Fleur on July 11, 2016

Here, agricultural laborers were referred to as "white slaves".

Where is here?

Joseph Kay

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Joseph Kay on July 11, 2016

I don't think you can make sense of class - especially in the US - without explicit consideration of race. What is slavery, reconstruction, Jim Crow, and 'the new Jim Crow' if not a way of organising labour power and managing surplus populations? These practices aren't colourblind so nor can any adequate class analysis be. (Equally, class-blind race politics would be blind to the fact black politicians and cops don't seem to stem the tide of black bodies.)

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 11, 2016

I fail to see what point you are making, Schmoopie.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on July 11, 2016

Khawaga

I fail to see what point you are making, Schmoopie.

I think you mean scoring.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

My original point was to express my solidarity with the action of Micah, unpopular as that position may be.

I don't think you can make sense of class - especially in the US - without explicit consideration of race.

One cannot make sense of race, universally, without explicit consideration of class.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

Thanks Jef, you reminded of the first single I ever bought:

[youtube]vt82hXYNr_4[/youtube]

Apologies if I have disrailed this earnest discussion.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 11, 2016

One cannot make sense of race, universally, without explicit consideration of class.

Why don't you actually try to engage with the critiques that people have levelled at you rather than, as Jef suggested you are, trying to score points.

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 11, 2016

Schmoopie

My original point was to express my solidarity with the action of Micah, unpopular as that position may be.

This seems like it probably warrants a ban.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 11, 2016

Khawaga, I have tried to address your enquiry to the best of my ability.

OliverT. I apologise if I have offended you. We will both have to leave any decision to ban to the administrators of this website. As my view has not been expressed elsewhere in the media, I can see the administrators would have due cause to ban me for expressing this view here.

To peace!

Alf

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Alf on July 11, 2016

I also thought that Hal Draper's critique of the ideology of 'offing the pigs', quoted by Oliver, was excellent. I think the discussion with Schmoopie should continue rather than be truncated by a ban. But I would say that he misunderstands Oliver if he thinks that the issue here is one of personal offense. The issue is that Schmoopie's position on Micah's actions (which are in the same vein as those of the GCI, of which he says he is a member) is actually dangerous, threatening the security of the revolutionary minority by identifying it with an essentially terrorist action. In the same way, but on a larger scale, Micah's recourse to the sniper rifle posed a direct threat to the security and lives of the demonstrators in the streets.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 11, 2016

Well put, Alf. But in addition, Schmoopie just doesn't seem to understand why race can't and shouldn't be reduced to class. And importantly why such a view is an obstacle in organizing.

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 12, 2016

Alf

I also thought that Hal Draper's critique of the ideology of 'offing the pigs', quoted by Oliver, was excellent. I think the discussion with Schmoopie should continue rather than be truncated by a ban. But I would say that he misunderstands Oliver if he thinks that the issue here is one of personal offense. The issue is that Schmoopie's position on Micah's actions (which are in the same vein as those of the GCI, of which he says he is a member) is actually dangerous, threatening the security of the revolutionary minority by identifying it with an essentially terrorist action. In the same way, but on a larger scale, Micah's recourse to the sniper rifle posed a direct threat to the security and lives of the demonstrators in the streets.

Right. It's not a matter of being offended or not. It's about rhetoric like that actually being potentially very dangerous.

Chilli Sauce

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on July 12, 2016

Khawaga

Not really Khawaga. One is a classist slogan, the other is humanist. I wouldn't chose either: I was simply counterposing the liberal claptrap of Black Lives Matter..

Then you are completely missing the point. And missing such a point is partly the reason why anarchism is so fucking white.

I don't know, very few anarchists would miss the meaning and importance of "black lives matter". I mean, I guess you could be saying that there's implicit attitudes within the wider anarchist movement that mirror Schmoopies obvious nonsense here, but I really don't think his take on the matter is widely shared within the movement.

Chilli Sauce

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on July 12, 2016

If by racist, you are insinuating that I discriminate on the basis of race (the English sense) then you are wrong. If, on the other hand, you are using the term in the French sense – that I believe in the existence of separate races – in that case you are correct. I believe our species to have two separate origins: Asiatic and African.

Holy shit.

Race is a social construct that exists far more as a lived experience and is meaningless in any biological or historical sense.

You also make the key mistake of assuming that racism has to be overt and conscious in terms of actions - "discriminate". Failing to recognize the racial bias that exists in policing, education, the wider economy - that shit reinforces larger racist arguments about the position and worth of people of color.

Huge amounts of the racism the underpins American society is passive, unconscious, and institutional. You really need to re-examine why you don't seems to understand that if you intend to continue calling yourself an anarchist.

This is all basic shit.

Chilli Sauce

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on July 12, 2016

The issue is that Schmoopie's position on Micah's actions (which are in the same vein as those of the GCI, of which he says he is a member)

What's the GCI? And who's the purported member - Schmoopie or Micah?

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 12, 2016

I think the discussion with Schmoopie should continue rather than be truncated by a ban.

That is noble of you, Alf. I'm sorry I couldn't accept your kind offer to attend the local meeting of the ICC but you will understand my natural wariness of party builders.

Personally I find Hal Draper turgid and if you will excuse me once again, White.

Alf

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Alf on July 12, 2016

yes, the International Communist Group, and I believe Schmoopie said he was a member, although I am not sure what he means by this exactly. On the thread about whether the ICG are "barmy", I found Steven quoting Schmoopie saying he was a member, but couldn't find the original post. In any case, perhaps Schmoopie should clarify.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 12, 2016

I have also referred to Steven's post (http://libcom.org.libcom.org/forums/thought/internationalist-communist-group-icg-barmy-or-not) and I note that a substantial number of comments have been removed by the administrators. I have clearly stated my relationship to GCI in my introductory comment on this site. I espouse their perspective with one reservation. To save you trawling through the lengthy libcom.org "welcome" page I will tell you that my reservations with GCI are with regard to what I perceive as the group's Eurocentricity. I excuse this fact, as I do Marx's unawareness of Ethiopian prehistory, because it is the result of ignorance not malice.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 12, 2016

Yeah, just to piggyback on what most everyone else is saying--race and class are so significantly intertwined here in the US that this crude workerist approach (reaching parody levels, honestly)* comes across, with a generous interpretation, as insensitive at best.

Schmoopie, I'm going to assume good-faith on your part so I will engage and hope I don't regret it...

The "All lives matter" response to BLM has been used by-and appropriately identified as--racist(s) for roughly two years now. This is why you received such a strong rebuke right off the bat. The phrase has become a dog-whistle for racists of all stripes.

As others have said more eloquently than I could, the phrase "Black Lives Matter" doesn't have an implied but invisible "only" preceding it. It is in response to a death by cop rate for unarmed African-Americans that is 3.5 times higher than unarmed White Americans. It is in response to a society in which extrajudicial murders by a militarized police force are ignored and accepted (either blatantly or passively). As a result you then can begin to understand that BLM is in response to overwhelming evidence that, currently, Black Lives Do Not Matter and is an effort to change that.

Assuming you are ignorant of all of this, it does beg the question about your real-life political circles. I totally get that you don't live in the states, so the day-to-day importance of BLM is likley diminished by distance somewhat. But the emergence of BLM, though obviously a defensive movement, is one of the most significant developments in the struggle for social justice in the US in a long time. It began as an organic, horizontal, direct action movement that rejected the establishment Civil Rights leaders and mantras, including the sanctity of non-violence.

Now of course things have changed over time somewhat predictably. As someone above mentioned DeRay has decided to become a politician and there are several other assorted bastardizations and betrayals common when movements begin to degenerate and continue on their ultimate path towards recuperation. (As an aside, today the Dallas PD Chief made an appeal that others have made, asking people to come off the protest line to become cops in order to help make changes to policing. This approach is particularly effective amongst many 'well-meaning, respectable' liberals because they have absolutely no critique of the structural societal role of the police.) That said, this trajectory does nothing to diminish the important work that has been and contimues to be done.

I mention all of this to say, if you are unaware of a lot of this and are dedicated to libertarian emancipatory politics, it appears to be a sign of both 1) a need to broaden your real world contacts and 2) the unconscious structural racism mentioned above. Again to reiterate: I'm not calling you a racist.

Finally, as others have stated-- cheerleading "propaganda by the deed" is handing the state justification for repression on a silver platter.

*The crude workerism is highly reminiscent of that article that made the rounds a couple months back by some trot group denouncing solidarity with the Stanford swimmer's victim because it represented a victory for gender identity politics.

Edited to add
-- i just saw the comments about the GCI, which I think reinforces my point above
As I recall they organise along secret cadres??

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 12, 2016

Jesuithitsquad, I appreciate your good faith and your comments.

I am not rebuking you for not reading this whole thread but I did not raise the slogan, ALL LIVES MATTER, quite the opposite. I did counterpose the slogan, PROLETARIAN LIVES MATTER, to the oh so populist slogan amongst liberal activists, BLACK LIVES MATTER.

Your next point simply mimics bourgeois sociology. We know that the core of American labour is composed of African descendents so it is only "natural" that the descendents of Africans should bear the brunt of state terror. It is the stick the state uses in conjunction with the carrot of the capitalist wage.

By the way your pseudonym gives me the screaming-heeby-geebies.

Finally, and this is in answer to several of the immediately preceeding comments, the state does not require any justification for repression in this time. As a Crown Court Judge once said to me, "All options are available [to the state]."

Sike

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Sike on July 12, 2016

Schmoopie

Jesuithitsquad, I am not rebuking you for not reading this whole thread but I did not raise the slogan, ALL LIVES MATTER, quite the opposite. I did counterpose the slogan, PROLETARIAN LIVES MATTER, to the oh so populist slogan amongst liberal activists, BLACK LIVES MATTER."

The fact of the matter is that in the United States that white proletarian lives matter more then the lives of black proletarians and the adoption of the slogan (ALL) PROLETARIAN LIVES MATTER as a counterpoise to the slogan BLACK LIVES MATTER is little more then a pretentious falsehood that would serve no end except to shift the focus away from the unique persecution facing African-American workers in the context of the United States.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 12, 2016

Schmoopie--

You know what, you're right. I misquoted you, but it doesn't impact the overall message of my post. As was pointed out by several others, the 'prole lives matter' approach is more or less the same thing as all lives matter to which you responded about the slogan being liberal claptrap, which is a flat-out idiotic, ignorant response. I explained to you why this is a very real issue, and not just sloganeering. Of course as communists it's our responsibility to fight against cross-class alliances, but to be honest, I haven't seen much of that myself. In fact, BLM is significant precisely because it rejected--on a fundamental level--the leadership of establishment figures.

I knew I'd likely wasted my time, but I didn't expect you to be quite so blase´ and robotic in your response.

There are those of us to whom this isn't just some abstract internet argument because it touches our lives personally. If You're incapable or unwilling to see how collectively fighting the police to end the killing of our friends, families and comrades is part of the international class struggle, then you're living in an 1890"s fantasy land.

ETA-spot on sike

Curious Wednesday

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Curious Wednesday on July 16, 2016

Alf wrote:

Schmoopie's position on Micah's actions (which are in the same vein as those of the GCI, of which he says he is a member) is actually dangerous, threatening the security of the revolutionary minority by identifying it with an essentially terrorist action

So clearly the popular proletarian song "Harry Roberts is our friend..." is dangerous and threatens "the security of the revolutionary minority by identifying it with an essentially terrorist action". Poor ICC, endangered by Schmoopie's comments. And this pathetic comment gets 9 up votes!!!!

"Security" for the vast majority, regardless of whether they start to move against this society or not, is an ideology - it doesn't exist. This is especially true for young blacks in the USA, though obviously the rest of the proletariat as well. But apparently the ICC and the self-styled "revolutionary minority" are somehow privileged and enjoy the luxury of "security" (or its illusion).

I neither support nor oppose Micah Johnson's actions - the way most people pose it here it comes over as a moral question. The question is of strategy. Voluntarism implies an inability to know how to wait, how to proceed. It's all a question of timing - maybe if he'd waited a couple of days what he did would have been far clearer and would have made far more sense, given the rising anger in the US about killer cops.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on July 16, 2016

Curious Wednesday

So clearly the popular proletarian song "Harry Roberts is our friend..." is dangerous and threatens "the security of the revolutionary minority by identifying it with an essentially terrorist action". Poor ICC, endangered by Schmoopie's comments. And this pathetic comment gets 9 up votes!!!!

That song may have shown proletarian anger, but Harry Roberts didn't do anything for the working class.
I'm not sure I agree entirely becase while this kind of action is used to legitimise violence against militants and the working class in general it's hardly necessary (they didn't start killing black people because of something like this) and as the ICC themselves argue as soon as militants pose any kind of danger to the state they can expect to face violence whether they use and advocate it or not.

Serge Forward

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Serge Forward on July 16, 2016

While singing the Harry Roberts song might all be a bit of a laff over a few beers or when attempting to wind up some individual dibble on a nice demo that isn't likely to get you, your mates or anyone else injured or killed, it's actually got fuck all to do with building a revolutionary movement any more than the actions of Micah Johnson do. I take Curious Wednesday's comment about voluntarism and timing though. A developing mass resistance movement versus some "lone gunman" effectively breaking up demonstrations of collective anger by that same developing resistance movement. Well, you've really got to know which side you're on here. To be fair, I'm not 100% against voluntarism and it can occasionally play a positive role, though more often than not, it's basically just "all about me" bullshit.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 16, 2016

...the 'prole lives matter' approach is more or less the same thing as all lives matter...

Except that the former acknowledges the existence of the class enemy – the bourgeoisie – and the latter denies it. As the personification of the bourgeois rule, the police are our class enemies, the more so when they adopt a policy of indiscriminate murder of our people in broad daylight.

One final point, on the matter of the danger posed to the demonstrators on the evening in question, Micah reached his targets, the police through their careless gunfire injured 11 bystanders.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 16, 2016

Schmoopie

...the 'prole lives matter' approach is more or less the same thing as all lives matter...

Except that the former acknowledges the existence of the class enemy – the bourgeoisie – and the latter denies it. As the personification of the bourgeois rule, the police are our class enemies, the more so when they adopt a policy of indiscriminate murder of our people in broad daylight.
.

Oh ffs--do you actually read the responses people write or just scan for the little nuggets that match your existing ideas?

As people have repeatedly explained, the Prole lives in question here happen to be Black Lives. The cops are quite clearly the militarized arm of the bourgeoisie, right?

Sorry but the slogan, Prole Lives Matter (but please stop killing our Black comrades) and please, billionaires, come out in the streets so we can fight you instead of your representatives, the police! doesn't quite have a ring to it.

It's not as if BLM has business leaders standing arm in arm with working class and unemployed african-americans. In fact, it's quite the opposite; the establishment Black Bourgeoisie continue to condemn BLM tactics, and their repeated attempts to assert their authority have been largely beaten back.

Again, Black Lives Matter isn't perfect and there continue to be problems with recuperation.

BUT...

As I said before, if you can't see that defending these proles from the murderous, racist police is part of the class war simply because the conflict identifies, more specifically, which proles are being targeted, and because the actual fight happens in the streets instead of on the shop floor, then quite simply, you have a very reactionary class analysis.

Would you oppose the anti-raids movement because it's specifically fighting for migrants??

Curious Wednesday

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Curious Wednesday on July 17, 2016

JC wrote

as the ICC themselves argue as soon as militants pose any kind of danger to the state they can expect to face violence whether they use and advocate it or not

Firstly how can"militants" pose a danger to the state if they don't either use or advocate anti-state violence? This fantasy that bureaucratic leninists like the ICC can pose a danger to the state simply because of their turgid "stopped-clock-correct-twice-in-the-day" analysis is simply a self-valorising intellectual's idiotic delusion of grandeur. Secondly, almost all proletarians face the violence of this society either now or in the long term, unless you define "violence" in the ideological terms that this society wants you to define it: the disasters that hit people's lives are already violent; future disasters will be incalculably more so.

Auld-bod

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Auld-bod on July 17, 2016

Curious Wednesday #89

If what you say is true, why did the Spanish state murder Francisco Ferrer?

Curious Wednesday

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Curious Wednesday on July 17, 2016

#90 Auld-bod:

why did the Spanish state murder Francisco Ferrer?

Brilliant comparison.

1909 Spain with the ICC in 2016.

As John McEnroe said....

And I´m sure you can´t ......
..............ever.

Alf

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Alf on July 17, 2016

As a matter of fact, I wasn't just thinking about the ICC when I made those comments about the danger to the revolutionary minority. Saying on libcom that you are in solidarity with actions like killing cops on demonstrations in today's conditions of the class struggle, when the working class is still very far from taking up arms, means exposing the whole milieu around libcom to the danger of increased surveillance by the bourgeois state. I assume that this was also Oliver Twister's concern when he said that Schmoopie's comments merited a ban.

Chilli Sauce

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Chilli Sauce on July 17, 2016

Looks like 3 cops killed in a shooting in Baton Rouge:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/17/baton-rouge-police-shooting-alton-sterling

No one seems to know the motives at this point.

Curious Wednesday

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Curious Wednesday on July 17, 2016

Alf: change your underpants NOW!!!

In fact, at worst, Schmoopie endangers only himself - the state knows perfectly well that the ICC poses no danger whatsoever other than to those who believe in its supposed revolutionariness.

Curious Wednesday

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Curious Wednesday on July 17, 2016

PS
Of course I don't think suicidal desperate attacks of vengeance are the way forward, but all this pathetic moralist shit, which never connects with such desperation, is just a sad justification for the so-called revolurionary minority being shit-scared of ever doing anything seriously innovative that could show the impotent dead-end of such acts, which at least have the merit of taking a risk, however unstrategic such risks are. The so-called revolutionary minority have nothing revolutionary about it - they´re just a bunch of blah blah pseudo-theoreticians defending their static "analysis".

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 17, 2016

The arguments in this thread have not been moralizing. That's your working clarseness speaking.

And you're referring to shooting up some insignificant cops as innovative? Have you read any history at all.

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on July 17, 2016

Curious Wednesday

Firstly how can"militants" pose a danger to the state if they don't either use or advocate anti-state violence? This fantasy that bureaucratic leninists like the ICC can pose a danger to the state simply because of their turgid "stopped-clock-correct-twice-in-the-day" analysis is simply a self-valorising intellectual's idiotic delusion of grandeur. Secondly, almost all proletarians face the violence of this society either now or in the long term, unless you define "violence" in the ideological terms that this society wants you to define it: the disasters that hit people's lives are already violent; future disasters will be incalculably more so.

Not advocating sniping cops does not mean that they don't advocate anti-state violence. And no-one has at all suggested that the state doesn't use violence or that the conception of it should be limited.

Curious Wednesday

PS
Of course I don't think suicidal desperate attacks of vengeance are the way forward, but all this pathetic moralist shit, which never connects with such desperation, is just a sad justification for the so-called revolurionary minority being shit-scared of ever doing anything seriously innovative that could show the impotent dead-end of such acts, which at least have the merit of taking a risk, however unstrategic such risks are. The so-called revolutionary minority have nothing revolutionary about it - they´re just a bunch of blah blah pseudo-theoreticians defending their static "analysis".

Shooting cops is not innovative and there is no merit in taking a risk just because it is a risk. No one has moralised here, but quite a few people have pointed out the drawbacks of such action and the small chance it has of achieving anything useful.

slothjabber

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slothjabber on July 17, 2016

On a thread about police murder of black men, almost every post has been about the shooting of some police, first in Dallas, now in Baton Rouge - the latter not yet definitely connected with anything 'political' (the cynical would say that the police are presumably checking whether the suspects are black or white to decide if they're 'terrorists' or 'mentally disturbed').

Four pages in, are we any closer to coming to a position on how the working class in the US, particularly African-American members of the working class (because as we can see they're at least three times more likely to be murdered by the police than white members of the working class), can fight against the police departments that seem to murder with impunity?

In my view, individual acts of violence are rarely helpful. The shooting of the officers in Dallas seems to have merely upped the level of danger for everyone there. The state doesn't seem damaged, police departments if anything seem to have been more brutal in response, and probably the main result will be both increased surveillance of 'subversives' and an increased brutality of repression against any expressions of dissent from the working class. We're not in a revolutionary situation. If we were, things would obviously be different. But Micah Johnson wasn't part of a workers' militia or anything like. It's possible to understand his rage while also seeing that his tactics have likely made the situation even worse.

Hieronymous

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Hieronymous on July 17, 2016

Here is the media identification of the Baton Rouge shooter:

Citing unnamed “sources,” CBS News reported that Mr. Long was a black man from Kansas City, Missouri, who committed the ambush on his 29th birthday. The network also identified him as an ex-Marine.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 17, 2016

Post deleted by user

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 17, 2016

There's a lot of contradictory information out there right now about the Baton Rouge shooting. Some reports saying the shooter was white, some saying he was black. Some saying he was associated with far right sovereign citizens movement. At least 1 Facebook profile and picture circulating on social media right now is fake. Really the only clear stuff is the public records information such as military service.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

Re: slothjabber #98

Good post, especially this:

It's possible to understand his rage while also seeing that his tactics have likely made the situation even worse.

is exceptionally well-stated and puts to words exactly my feelings on the matter.

But this:

On a thread about police murder of black men, almost every post has been about the shooting of some police, first in Dallas, now in Baton Rouge -

I wouldn't agree with. While there have been several posts along these lines, I don't think I'd agree with your characterization of "almost every post" being about dallas etc.

Hieronymous

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Hieronymous on July 18, 2016

Here's more on the suspected shooter in Baton Rouge from the New York Times:

[quote=NYT]Suspect Had Career As a Marine

The Baton Rouge gunman, whom the authorities identified as Gavin Long of Kansas City, Mo., was a Marine veteran who had served in Iraq.

Yvonne Carlock, the deputy public affairs officer for the United States Marines, provided these details of Mr. Long’s military service:

Rank: Sergeant

Date of Rank: July 1, 2008

Dates of Service: Aug. 22, 2005 to Aug. 21, 2010

Military Occupational Specialty: 0651, Data Network Specialist

Awards:
Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal;
Iraq Campaign Medal;
Sea Service Deployment Ribbon (3rd Award);
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal;
National Defense Service Medal;
Navy Unit Commendation Medal

Place Entered Service: Kansas City, Mo.

Deployments: Iraq: June 2008 to January 2009

Duty Assignments:
Marine Corps Recruit Training Depot San Diego;
School of Infantry, Camp Pendleton, Calif.;
Marine Corps Communication-Electronics School, Twentynine Palms, Calif.;
Headquarters Battalion, 3rd Marine Division, Okinawa, Japan;
Marine Aircraft Group 38, 3rd Marine Air Wing, Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, San Diego
[/quote]

There does seem to be a pattern, with Christopher Dorner, Micah Johnson and now Gavin Long all having military experience -- including being expert marksmen and some being combat veterans.

Reminds me of a line in Radley Balko's Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces about how once the military trained cops, but cops have become more trigger happy -- and have more trigger time -- and are actually now training the military for combat activities like house-to-house searches and urban crowd control techniques in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Hieronymous

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Hieronymous on July 18, 2016

dp

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 18, 2016

Been meaning to respond to some of this thread.

As far as the whole conversation about the Dallas shootings in particular, I believe I've already said what I think but would add that I agree with the general sentiment of isolated, individualized spree killings not being worth praise or emulation. I've seen a bunch of celebratory stuff from leftists on Facebook and Twitter and I find this somewhat objectionable and reveals something kinda ugly, politically, IMO. I think it is dangerous to promote an approving view of these actions as "our side got one". While I don't believe I have all the answers to solving the problem of racialized police brutality in the United States, it seems like it can be confidently said that lone, disturbed individuals taking on the police with an SKS is not a solution.

jesuithitsquad

But the emergence of BLM, though obviously a defensive movement, is one of the most significant developments in the struggle for social justice in the US in a long time. It began as an organic, horizontal, direct action movement that rejected the establishment Civil Rights leaders and mantras, including the sanctity of non-violence.

You're right that it is significant. The most significant civil rights movement of my lifetime, easily. I think you mischarecterize BLM a bit though. It is mixed and varies from place to place. I don't think you could say that it is horizontal. I'm not sure that type of language even applies to the sort of thing that BLM is. BLM is a decentralized movement with social media as the main mobilizing force and it is also local, hierarchical, somewhat closed formal organizations that control this social media. The organizations are made up of different kinds of people, but with heavy reliance on young professionals in the liberal non-profit industrial complex. Only a tiny amount of people who could be said to be involved in BLM movement get to call any shots. At least that's the way it is here and most other places I've heard.

I also don't think it necessarily rejects the sanctity of non-violence. Sure, there are a number of groups involved in the movement that do. But, again, most of the BLM as an organization actions are perfectly in line with the tradition of the non-violent civil rights movement. And although I don't think this necessarily is inherent to non-violence as a strategy, in Minneapolis, organizers with the official BLM group have snitchjacketed and threatened to snitch on people during actions who are into self-defense against the police. They characterize many to the left of them as "white anarchists", despite the mixed nature of the street militants. They use words like "outside agitator", which as a phrase comes from white supremacists in the South. Now, I know that Minneapolis is not the entire country, but a large portion of the national BLM momentum from time to time has come out of here. The BLM organization here is influential and significant, more so than some BLM organizations in much larger cities.

So in the end, it's somewhat difficult to characterize BLM as a movement any one way, because it is a lot of things.

jesuithitsquad

It's not as if BLM has business leaders standing arm in arm with working class and unemployed african-americans. In fact, it's quite the opposite; the establishment Black Bourgeoisie continue to condemn BLM tactics, and their repeated attempts to assert their authority have been largely beaten back.

Again, in some places, stuff like this is happening. You've already mentioned DeRay, who by the way is from Minneapolis. Although it seems he has not been a part of any BLM organizations, he is one of the most high-profile faces and voices of the BLM movement. And he is basically a crusader for anti-union, school privatization. That movement is as close to "business leaders standing arm in arm with working class and unemployed african-americans" as you can get.

Nekima Levy-Pounds, head of the NAACP here and another high-profile person involved in the BLM movement is also co-counsel for a lawsuit filed by the anti-union Partnership for Educational Justice against the state of Minnesota that seeks to get rid of teacher tenure.

EDIT: It's been pointed out to me that DeRay Mckesson is not actually from the Twin Cities, but happened to be living here when the Ferguson protests started. He was in human resources at Minneapolis Public Schools after exiting Teach For America.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Alf

Saying on libcom that you are in solidarity with actions like killing cops...means exposing the whole milieu around libcom to the danger of increased surveillance by the bourgeois state

I dare anyone to attempt to try and review this websites security performance. You might discover the danger of bourgeois state surveillance is more real than you seem to think. This website is a massive honey pot, de facto or otherwise.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

Juan- I wouldn't really disagree with any of your assessments here. I'm a little short on time atm, so I'm sorry for the abbreviated response.

A couple things--

So first, I probably should have specified that most of my thoughts on BLM have been referring to the wider protest movement of regular, non-activisty people and not to the actual BLM organizations themselves. I really don't have much time for the 'official' types, as it didn't take DeRay's candidacy to guess that most of them, even if their hearts are in the right place, are likely politicians in the making. So while your assessments are spot on about the self-described leadership I don't really think they apply much to regular folks who end up in the streets, full of rage at the latest murder. And really, we don't have a name for this part of the movement, so BLM has to serve as a short-hand.

Also, a lot of my assessments were conditioned with 'initially' and 'in the beginning' sort of caveats. That said, I could've been clearer, and probably painted with too broad of a brush.

Interesting info re: the anti-teacher union stuff. I wasn't aware of it, but it's also not terribly surprising.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

Hieronymus:

There does seem to be a pattern, with Christopher Dorner, Micah Johnson and now Gavin Long all having military experience...

Rather than seeing the similarities between these killings, I see them as opposite poles. In the cases of Christopher Dorner and Gavin Long I see the actions of desperate madmen (in Long's case possibly manipulated by external forces – "sovereign citizens movement") that easily serve the normal functioning of capital. In Micah I see black activism drawing to its natural conclusion: the killed turning their guns on the killers – hardly a normal turn of events – but I concede, not necessarily revolutionary.

Curious Wednesday

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Curious Wednesday on July 18, 2016

I said

Of course I don't think suicidal desperate attacks of vengeance are the way forward, but all this pathetic moralist shit, which never connects with such desperation, is just a sad justification for the so-called revolurionary minority being shit-scared of ever doing anything seriously innovative that could show the impotent dead-end of such acts, which at least have the merit of taking a risk, however unstrategic such risks are.

and I get these replies:

Khawaga:

you're referring to shooting up some insignificant cops as innovative?

jef costello:

Shooting cops is not innovative and there is no merit in taking a risk just because it is a risk.

I refer to these acts as an

impotent dead-end

Yet you persist in deliberately misreading this as me making out that shooting cops is innovative. Of course, it´s no more innovative than talking rubbish on an internet forum but at least it has more integity than implicitly defending a suffocating bunch of anti-life bureaucrats like the ICC.

I shan´t bother to respond to any further deliberate distortions of my comments - I'll do something far more interesting - have a cup of tea.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

I'll do something far more interesting - have a cup of tea.

May I recommend rooibos: it has no bitter aftertaste?

I appreciate your comments – especially on the ICC. I agree with much that you right but I disagree that Micah was a "desperate" man. The manner in which he carried out the assassinations appears to me as cool, calm and collected.

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 18, 2016

Alf

As a matter of fact, I wasn't just thinking about the ICC when I made those comments about the danger to the revolutionary minority. Saying on libcom that you are in solidarity with actions like killing cops on demonstrations in today's conditions of the class struggle, when the working class is still very far from taking up arms, means exposing the whole milieu around libcom to the danger of increased surveillance by the bourgeois state. I assume that this was also Oliver Twister's concern when he said that Schmoopie's comments merited a ban.

That's right. I don't think Libcom should even put itself in a position where it could be seen to harbor advocacy for that kind of activity, as it does put everyone around it at some risk - which might not manifest for awhile. Imagine that kind of thing in a newspaper article or a courtroom statement.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

that kind of activity...does put everyone around it at some risk

This claim is ignorant, cowardly...does anyone here know what an NSL is? Everyone of us is advocating the overthrow of established government. That's a capital offense called "treason" last time I checked.

Communism isn't about hiding in the shadows, with your senile clique, in fear of state repression. It has much more to do with standing up to it

Da Real MVP

sad justification for the so-called revolurionary minority being shit-scared of ever doing anything

Curious Wednesday, please keep it up. It's good to read some clarifying comments in regards to the ICC.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

And right as well, Khawaga. When an integral part of our program is the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie, it seems unlikely that the powers that be are going to go to great lengths over an Internet chat room.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

Khawaga

Slacktivist is clearly a bad ass.

It only seems that way to the rest of us cowards.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

I'm not a badass. I'm not paranoid. I'm full of character flaws and have no problem sharing this fact of life with total and complete strangers. I'm not trying to be some cool super militant. I'm just paying attention

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

Jesuithitsquad:

It only seems that way to the rest of us cowards.

I don't know whether I am a coward or not but every time I see your nomenclature pop up I fear a pogrom coming.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

Does paying attention require accusing the libcom collective of complying with a National Security Letter? If they deny it would just be because of the NDA, right?

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 18, 2016

Yeah, slacktivist, like Schmoopie, seems to be living out a fantastical militant life.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

jesuithitsquad

Does paying attention require accusing the libcom collective of complying with a National Security Letter? If they deny it would just be because of the NDA, right?

A bit of a Freudian slip. If you were not in the dark about these issues, you would know that you are forced by threat of law to comply with an NSL. You're also legally prohibited from telling anyone you've received it, including an attorney. Since libcom does not publish a regular security report, there can be no "canaries", and I'm left to presume the worst.

Khawaga

Yeah, slacktivist, like Schmoopie, seems to be living out a fantastical militant life.

No, I'm just not interested in any kind of reconciliation with the status quo, as it seems many posters here are.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 18, 2016

That's precisely why I say you're living in a fantasy world. Your last post reeks of unfilled desire. When I engage in fantasies, I don't go on libcom puffing up my chest about how much more srsr I am about the clarse war. I play some boardgames or D&D.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Khawaga, what are you talking about my friend? You've completely lost me now. I've been a poster for three days here and have already made to feel not welcomed, for espousing non-reconciliatory opinions.

I'll go play some D&D or something better now, good idea. Or perhaps just prepare for work this evening.

But first...might I suggest an activity that you and some of the other posters here would probably find equally stimulating? Perhaps you should get off the web and go door-knock for Hillary Clinton or Jeremy Corbyn?

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

Your last post reeks of unfilled desire.

Last time I sought counsel like that it cost me £25 and you're doling it out for free. Tah mate.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

slacktavist

If you weren't in the dark about these issues you'd know that you are forced by threat of law to comply with an NSL

Uh...

According to the new DOJ IG report on FBI’s use of NSLs, there are some Internet companies that have been refusing NSLs for some data since 2009 (this discussion appears on pages 71- 73).

slacktavist

You're also legally prohibited from telling anyone you've received it, including an attorney.

me, predicting your silly response

If they deny it would just be because of the NDA, right?

Slacktavist, NDA= non disclosure agreement.

You're definitely right about one thing though. Someone on this thread is definitely in the dark on these issues.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

slacktivist

Khawaga, what are you talking about my friend? You've completely lost me now. I've been a poster for three days here and have already made to feel not welcomed, for espousing non-reconciliatory opinions.

I'll go play some D&D or something better now, good idea. Or perhaps just prepare for work this evening.

But first...might I suggest an activity that you and some of the other posters here would probably find equally stimulating? Perhaps you should get off the web and go door-knock for Hillary Clinton or Jeremy Corbyn?

Protip: if wanting to feel welcome is really high on your priority list, next time maybe don't show up acting like you're captain anarchies, saying 'yer doin it wrong' to everyone in sight, and making accusations about honey pots and collusion with the state.

you might get a completely different reception.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

some internet rando

Slacktavist, NDA= non disclosure agreement.

Oh my, sorry. I'm terrible with acronyms. So we're both not in the dark. Why does libcom not have a security report with a canary, or lack thereof, then?

some internet rando

...

You're right about me being (overly) confrontational/oppositional, and not wanting to be welcomed by this crowd. I suppose that's why I got called a "badass" right away.

Still, looking at your post histories, almost all in this thread support some type of reformism or electoralism or unionism. That means as mentally problematic as I might seem or am, I still think your political outlook is terrible, especially when compared with some of the other posters here, like Schmoopie and Curious Wednesday.

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 18, 2016

Still, looking at your post histories, almost all in this thread support some type of reformism or electoralism or unionism.

Well, that's a big fat lie. What jesuithitman said. You come on here assuming people supporting electoralism or unionism, thinking that you are coming here to tell everyone how the class struggle is really waged. But your assumptions are wrong. And let's be honest, you did not check people's posting histories.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

No, it's not. Reformism. Electoralism. Legalism. Democratism. Activism. Unionism. Support of nationalist movements. It's all there.

radicalgraffiti

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on July 18, 2016

slacktivist

No, it's not. Reformism. Electoralism. Legalism. Democratism. Activism. Unionism. Support of nationalist movements. It's all there.

source pls

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

If you click on a poster's username, you'll arrive at a page with a link called "Track" in blue at the top and we won't have to derail the thread further for people here to become more familiar with each other's positions. For example here is yours:

http://libcom.org/user/4534/track
or; simply visit:
http://www.afed.org.uk/

It's funny how this feature is even available on a website such as this. What were we saying about the bourgeois security apparatus again?

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

slacktivist

No, it's not. Reformism. Electoralism. Legalism. Democratism. Activism. Unionism. Support of nationalist movements. It's all there.

Look, political differences are all well and good, but you're literally making shit up here. I'd guess you see thread names that I've posted in without actually looking at my posts because this is just flat-out untrue.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Nothing personal Mr. Hit Squad. Is that like the contras?

I hate to further derail, really---so sorry---and the thread, oh gosh, I'm so sorry, but here is your schtick for everyone to sift through:

http://libcom.org/user/6246/track

OliverTwister

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by OliverTwister on July 18, 2016

slacktivist

No, it's not. Reformism. Electoralism. Legalism. Democratism. Activism. Unionism. Support of nationalist movements. It's all there.

Lol whatever else you think about the ICC, I don't think you'd find any of that in their post history.

But also, if the only people you can find who agree with you are others who've just signed up, maybe you're on the wrong site.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

OliverTwister

Lol whatever else you think about the ICC, I don't think you'd find any of that in their post history.

Oh dear, you're correct here. I'd find worse

Thread...anyone? Back to the thread? Please and thank you

radicalgraffiti

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by radicalgraffiti on July 18, 2016

slacktivist

If you click on a poster's username, you'll arrive at a page with a link called "Track" in blue at the top and we won't have to derail the thread further for people here to become more familiar with each other's positions. For example here is yours:

http://libcom.org/user/4534/track
or; simply visit:
http://www.afed.org.uk/

It's funny how this feature is even available on a website such as this. What were we saying about the bourgeois security apparatus again?

this contradicts your argument so i take it you admit you are talking shit

Battlescarred

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Battlescarred on July 18, 2016

Oh fuck off.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Ok. Have a good evening.

Thread?

Khawaga

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Khawaga on July 18, 2016

Slacktivist, where's the smoking gun. Either post an actual quite from someone or just admit that you are lying. It's quite pathetic this schtick. At least Schmoopie and Curious Wednesdays actually post arguments however much I disagree with them on some points. You truly are here to score magical internet points.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Start some threads. I'll be happy to participate. This one is for talking about Black people fighting back against murderous police, as we can all see from the title.

Khawaga, you are or have been involved or affiliated with the International Solidarity Movement in Palestine for example, is this correct? If so this group deals with a number of problems dealing with the points I've raised. As I said---start up some threads, I'm happy to discuss and debate in the appropriate admin sanctioned protest area.

The Pigeon

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by The Pigeon on July 18, 2016

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36828697

Cleveland police have asked Ohio's governor to suspend open-carry gun rights during the Republican National Convention.

The request comes after three officers were shot dead in Louisiana on Sunday.

The governor said he did not have the power to suspend the law, which allows licensed gun owners to carry weapons.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

captain anarchies is shocked!--shocked i tell you--at this derailing. how dare you respond to their baseless accusations and bald-faced lies; must stay on topic.

.

*and just to clarify, I am not, nor have I ever been a member of the International Communist Current.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

slacktivist:

I'm just not interested in any kind of reconciliation with the status quo

For real!

jef costello

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jef costello on July 18, 2016

Slacktivist you're like the kid that shows up for dinner at his nan's house and calls her a fascist because her bourgeois meal contains meat, even though he hadn't told her that he had turned vegan.

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Totally. On the Internet, I prefer "they", for future reference

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 18, 2016

You guys are going to end up ruining this thread...c'mon

Anyway, I've been meaning to post some more updates on the movement in the Twin Cities, the Dallas shooting, etc, but haven't had the time and news and events move so fast.

The I-94 blockade and scuffles with cops and arrests of protestors was huge news here.

All adults arrested at the I-94 blockade (46 in total) have been charged with 3rd degree riot.

4 Minneapolis cops walked out of a Minnesota Lynx (our professional women's basketball team) game after the players held a news conference expressing support for the BLM movement. The police "union" President, Bob Kroll1 praised these officers and said there were only 4 at the game because the Lynx are a "pathetic draw". The mayor said these were "jackass remarks" and the police chief has ordered him to stop giving interviews and press conferences while in uniform.

I-35 was blockaded during the day, 41 people were arrested.

Once again the whole "white anarchists", "outside agitator", "police provocateur" thing was trotted out by some key organizers in the BLM movement because of the fights/rock throwing that happened between some protesters and police during the I-94 blockade. Thankfully, there's been a lot of pushback of this from IWWs, Unicorn Riot2 , Twin Cities Justice 4 Jamar Coalition and Black Liberation Project.

The occupation in front of the Governor's mansion continues. I believe it was briefly raided by the police this morning but they are still there.

Moving on to the Dallas shootings, The Daily Beast came out with article that claims that Micah Johnson was basically "blacklisted" from black nationalist groups because he was viewed as unstable and may have been discharged from the military for sexual harassment. The article claims that Johnson was an online follower of groups such as the Nation of Islam, New Black Panther Party, Huey P. Newton Gun Club and Black Riders Liberation Party. The first three have groups in Dallas. I imagine all of these groups will be facing heightened state and federal law enforcement attention and I wouldn't be surprised if one of these forced, pretty much entrapment FBI 'terror plots' are hatched for them.

  • 1Kroll has been accused of brutality and racism in the past and may have links to white supremacists... http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/police-leader-who-smeared-black-lives-matter-terrorists-tied-white-power-linked
  • 2livestreaming radical media people that are at every lefty thing in town

slacktivist

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by slacktivist on July 18, 2016

Worth noting the press has demonstrated the Gavin fellow was also guilty of misogyny, and in both cases Police communicated they were after a group of individuals that turned out to be just one "lone wolf".

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 18, 2016

Thanks for keeping us on track, Juan. I find the blockades of the highways a very significant tactic and the authorities reaction to them shows how threatening they find them too. I also welcome your mention of the FBI in all this.

jesuithitsquad

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by jesuithitsquad on July 18, 2016

All adults arrested at the I-94 blockade (46 in total) have been charged with 3rd degree riot

jesus, anyone know of a trusted solidarity fund?

thanks for the updates juan.

as much as it pains me to agree with them today, i've also seen the info slacktavist reports above re: violence against women as a predicate to the 'lone wolf' attacks.

Juan Conatz

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Juan Conatz on July 18, 2016

jesuithitsquad

jesus, anyone know of a trusted solidarity fund?

I haven't seen anything. There were bail funds but I believe everyone is out now.

Schmoopie

7 years 8 months ago

In reply to by libcom.org

Submitted by Schmoopie on July 19, 2016

At the funeral of Philando Castile the preacher, Rev. Steve Daniels Jr., asked why racial profiling still happens.