Thousands flee lebanon violence

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Joseph Kay's picture
Joseph Kay
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May 23 2007 10:02
Thousands flee lebanon violence
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Thousands of people have used a night-time lull in fighting between troops and Islamist militants to flee a refugee camp in northern Lebanon ... At least 50 soldiers and militants have died. The civilian toll is unknown.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6682129.stm

fkschulze's picture
fkschulze
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May 23 2007 18:26

revol68 can you explain that comment?

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Joseph Kay
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May 24 2007 08:18

in the absence of an anarchist militia i am a little unsure who to support, but it sure ain't the cowards fleeing the fighting [/sarcasm]

baboon
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May 24 2007 10:31

It's not compulsory to support any faction of capital. Of course you could denounce them all: Syria, Iran, the USA, France and so on. Thousands of families in some of the most crowded apartment blocks in the world being shelled by artillery and those that flee being shot in the back by their "liberators" - you don't have to support any of these gangsters.

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Steven.
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May 24 2007 10:49
baboon wrote:
It's not compulsory to support any faction of capital. Of course you could denounce them all: Syria, Iran, the USA, France and so on. Thousands of families in some of the most crowded apartment blocks in the world being shelled by artillery and those that flee being shot in the back by their "liberators" - you don't have to support any of these gangsters.

Really? Thanks baboon.

But this is another funny thing about anarchists who support these various "resistances," like in Iraq, when they spend most of their time killing each other.

baboon
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May 25 2007 10:38

I don't understand John. Is that meant to be a joke, a political statement? Can you explain what you are saying please?

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Steven.
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May 25 2007 10:40
baboon wrote:
I don't understand John. Is that meant to be a joke, a political statement? Can you explain what you are saying please?

To you I was being sarcy. The second comment was unrelated, a general observation.

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Joseph Kay
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May 25 2007 10:44

there was also sarcasm in my post i you seemed to miss, indicated by "[/sarcasm]"

BB
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May 25 2007 10:47
Joseph K. wrote:
there was also sarcasm in my post i you seemed to miss, indicated by "[/sarcasm]"

Stop it with the humour youse two, this ain't libcommunity!

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May 25 2007 22:36
BB wrote:
Stop it with the humour youse two, this ain't libcommunity!

you think they'd know better.
Time for a putsch BB?

baboon
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May 26 2007 11:19

Not very funny jokes are they? And the sarcasm.... well. The point still stands: it's not necessary to support any faction of these capitalist gangs. What is your position on this particular development of imperialist war?

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Joseph Kay
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May 26 2007 12:09

baboon, the my sarcasm was aimed at those who say we must take sides in every intra-bourgeois spat - leftists who support hizbullah or hamas for example. however it's a bit of a cross-thread joke which is bad etiquette because it easily leads to misunderstandings like this

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May 26 2007 14:51

i thought it was a good joke. don't worry about it. wanna hear a better joke?

Q. How many hippies does it take to screw in a light bulb?

A. Hippies don't screw in light bulbs, they screw in dirty sleeping bags..

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May 29 2007 22:56

From what I know, the Islamist militants seem to no more than about 50 people or so (some estimates are 4 times as high, but let's be diminutive for the sake of argument), of them probably the majority are overzealous local youths following a tiny group of, shall we say, even-more-misguided-than-most leaders who have (had?) some access to funds and weapons. Some force (probably mostly police) tried to arrest them a while ago, they probably mounted a successful ambush. But the Lebanese govt and the US, and most of the media, have been presenting the situation as some serious struggle.

Oh, and the (only?) leader, Shakr Al-Abasi, was once in a Fatah faction called Fatah Al-Intifadah:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_al-Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah_al-Intifada

Fatah Al-Intifadah, as well as practically everybody else among the Palestinians, completely disown Fatah Al-Islam, its members, its methods, etc. etc.

Aren't state-sponsored militia politics fun?

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May 29 2007 23:13
fkschulze wrote:
i thought it was a good joke. don't worry about it. wanna hear a better joke?

Q. How many hippies does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. Hippies don't screw in light bulbs, they screw in dirty sleeping bags..

I prefer this version:

Q. How many crust punks does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A. Crust punks don't screw in light bulbs, they screw in their own piss and vomit.

baboon
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May 30 2007 13:17

From some newspaper reports this group could be manipulated by Syria. I would think that there are some definite links to events going on in Gaza.These events clearly show the tendency for imperialist rivalries to ratchet up whatever the irrationality and the civilian cost and the role of the larger imperialisms in this irreversible descent into capitalist decomposition.

alibadani
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May 30 2007 17:07

Seymore Hersh of the Newyorker Magazine says that Fatah al-Islam has been funded by the USA and Isreal. IT is part of a turn in covert policy to fund extremist Sunni groups in Lebanon as a possible counter to the Shiite-led Hisb'Allah (Al-Jazeera spelling, i love it). Other Palestinian Islamist groups in Lebanon (all Sunni) have been even better funded recently, according to Hersh.

The links to Syria are stupid propaganda. Syria is pro-Hezbollah. Hersh interviewed the President of Syria al-Assad who Hersh says almost worships Nasrallah.

It seems the US covertly funded these Jihadists and are openly supporting Siniora's government, while Nasrallah is warning them against storming the camp.

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May 30 2007 21:53
alibadani wrote:
Hisb'Allah (Al-Jazeera spelling, i love it)

makes more sense, as it's Hizb/Hisb = Party, Allah = God, Hizballah = 'Party of God'

yeah the links to syria seem like total bullshit - like you say syria back hizballah, and the Fatah al-Islam leader was imprisoned in syria

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May 30 2007 22:33

I also read somewhere that this 'Salafist' group was backed by the USA. But who knows? Everyone's playing a double game at least.
The situation in the whole area is however getting tenser than ever. Lebanon is showing signs of breaking up again, even though the fault lines of the 70s and 80s have moved somewhat. The Fatah-Hamas coalition has already shown deep and violent cracks. The Turkish comrades are seriously concerned that there is some kind of war mobilisation in Turkey.

Mike Harman
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May 30 2007 22:49
Joseph K. wrote:
alibadani wrote:
Hisb'Allah (Al-Jazeera spelling, i love it)

makes more sense, as it's Hizb/Hisb = Party, Allah = God, Hizballah = 'Party of God'

yeah the links to syria seem like total bullshit - like you say syria back hizballah, and the Fatah al-Islam leader was imprisoned in syria

like Hizb ut-Tahrir as well.

baboon
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May 31 2007 11:58

From yesterday's Times: "Turkey warned the US against repeating violations of Turkish airspace at the border with Iraq. It threatened unspecified action. The warninig followed violations by US F-16 warplanes... which some Turkish media described as a deliberate attempt at intimidation as Ankara discusses whether it should conduct a military incursion into northern Iraq to strike at Turkish Kurds rebels based there".
In the space of one or two months the US has gone from Turkey's diplomatic protector to its military aggressor. Just another example of the centrifugal tendencies at work in the "new imperialist world order" of every man for themself".

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Jun 1 2007 08:26
Quote:
The Fatah-Hamas coalition has already shown deep and violent cracks.

... in people's skulls sad
Actually, Fatah has had numerous additional militiamen, reportedly armed and trained by the US and other foreign elements, enter the Gaza strip in recent months (weeks?). The way I see it Hamas in in many senses on the defensive and Fatah on the offensive, although it's not an all-out attack because everyone is committed on the formal level to cease-fires and the unity government and everything.

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Jun 4 2007 14:19
Eyal Rozenberg wrote:
The way I see it Hamas in in many senses on the defensive and Fatah on the offensive

Oh yeah? From the press over here it seems very much the other way around...

Do you know how general public opinion in Palestine has turned? More towards Hamas, or Fatah, or against both of them?

baboon
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Jun 4 2007 15:23

According to yesterday's New York Times, Major General Achraf Rifi, head of Lebanon's internal security, Fatah al Islam in Lebanon contains 50 or so veterans of the Iraq war. Days ago the first of eight planeloads of military equipment arrived in Lebanon from the USA in order to take them on. The group's leader, Shakir al-Abssi, was an associate of al-Zarqawi. Abssi confirmed reports that the Syrian forces had killed his son-in-law who crossed into Iraq to collaborate with the insurgents. Whatever it was and whoever was backing them, Fatah al Islam seems to be made up of non-affiliated Al Qaeda.
Dr. Mohammad al-Massari,a Saudi dissident who runs a jihadist internet forum forum, Tajeed.net, (and who is based in Britain!), said on May 25: "The flow of fighters is already going back and forth, and the fight will be everywhere until the United States is willing to cease and desist".
In April, Saudi government officials said that they had arrested 172 men who had plans to bomb military and civilian targets who appeared to have trained in Iraq.
So the battlefield of Iraq is fuelling attacks in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, probably Jordan and almost certainly towards Europe.
A good example here of the centrifugal tendencies of war in decomposing capitalism and the war in Iraq spilling over to become even more dangerous involving elements who don't appear to be controlled or manipulated (at least in the first instance) by any nation state.

mic
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Jun 4 2007 17:58

I just read this article, and I think some of you could find it interesting, too:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5837

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Jun 4 2007 19:16
John. wrote:
Eyal Rozenberg wrote:
The way I see it Hamas in in many senses on the defensive and Fatah on the offensive

Oh yeah? From the press over here it seems very much the other way around...

From what I've read it seems as if the US is backing Fatah and Israel is targeting Hamas. I've not seen much british media recently though

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Jun 6 2007 16:42
mic wrote:
I just read this article, and I think some of you could find it interesting, too:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5837

It's interesting, but people should be a bit vary of the author of the piece, who isn't very trustworthy. He's a bit of a conspiracy nut, and is most famous for spreading 9/11 conspiracies as well as his work for the "Slobodan Milosevich was innocent" campaign some years back.

mic
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Jun 6 2007 18:35

Thanks Felix. I'll keep it in mind.
Actually I was not implying he's trustworthy, but simply that the theory is "interesting" and deserves some thought.

It makes some sense in the light of the interests acting in the region.
But I've not direct (or enough sure) knowledge to be able to judge.

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Jun 8 2007 14:41
John. wrote:
Oh yeah? From the press over here it seems very much the other way around...

Sounds like western media wishful thinking... not that support for Hamas is completely unwavering and steadfast. But they did win the parliamentary elections after decades of Fatah dominance, that's a signficant change and its not as though the Palestinians can 'have second thoughts' after a few months and decide maybe Fatah are better after all. Their dominance has been broken to a great extent, plus, they have been fractured by the years of Intifadah, sieges and curfues, so Fatah is different things in different places now. This is less true AFAIK for Hamas, although it is said to be much more powerful in Gaza than in the west bank.

If you ask about the opinion of people with working brains, however, then things are very clear. Who's gonna support a party which brings troops armed and trained by your occupier to fight the rival faction which beat them fair and square (well, as fair and square as political parties can get I suppose) in the elections. And even that after Hamas let them have, like, half the government in the Mecca agreement, and with Hamas officialls being kidnapped by Israel (ministers, MPs, heads of local councils) etc. etc... ? Hamas is not that support-worthy either, for a plethora of reasons, but Fatah (or parts of Fatah; not all local militia groups seem to be held accountable for what the leadership does... or rather things are too complicated for me to perceive properly from where I'm sitting) are now well within the 'traitorous' category as nationalists (that is, if you had assumed they would serve the interests of your people, which hasn't been a very well-founded assumption).

baboon
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Jun 11 2007 11:22

I think events are showing that my original suspicion about Syria being behind this "revolt" were correct (30th May) and that it's not "stupid propaganda" (Alibadani). Using the "who gains" formula, I think that it was to Syria's advantage to unleash this attack on the Lebanese security forces at this time (international tribunal against Syria's involvement in Hariri's murder, presidential elections coming up). These have been the main points in the unfolding of the violence and the state with most to gain is Syria. That's not "stupid" at all.
The Fatah al-Islam group is certainly not backed by the United States as suggested - why would they be? They wouldn't back a group and immediately use 8 plane loads high tech, high explosive, very highly priced weaponary to wipe them out.
The recent appearance of the Hamas-al Islam group, an apparant split to Al-Queda from a pro-Syrian group Hamas Infatada, which itself came out of the anti-Arafat Palestinian group FPLP, based in Damascus, can, as the current French paper of the ICC argues, only throw suspicion for these events on Syria. It seems to be accepted that Al Queda and Sunni insurgents are being based in and supported by Syria.
Both the French and the Americans, for their own imperialist interests, have rushed to support the Lebanese government with material support for the security services. The noble minded French offering TNT for "humanitarian" purposes and the US making no bones about its weaponary being used "in order to reestablish law and order in this country" (Washington, 25.5.7). It is clear that the US is not backing this group.
The US wants to establish itself in Lebanon to push up against Syria and the French to reestablish their influence in the region, both of which necessarily come up against Syrian interests. There's no "accord" here between the USA and France, but another layer of imperialist antagonism.

The activity of leftism has always been quick to support, say, the Palestinian militias against the "oppressive, Israeli aggressors". It's part of leftism's raison d'etre to find one faction of the capitalist state (usually an anti-American one) to support in any inter-imperialist conflict. Who do the leftists "critically" support here in Lebanon or in Gaza, where it is clear that these military gangsters are acting for, when they are not created by, Syria, Iran, France, the USA, Britain (who has been pushed out recently). For the Palestinian populations these, their "representatives", their "liberators" and "freedom fighters" contribute to bring down new levels of instability, terror and murder on their heads. Which capitalist gang of the "lesser evil" do the leftists tell us to back here?

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Joseph Kay
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Jun 11 2007 11:26
baboon wrote:
Using the "who gains" formula

'cui bono' you mean? the 'formula' that proves bush was behind 9-11 and iran orchestrated the iraq war? i mean given as the group's leader was imprisoned by syria you need a bit more evidence than cui bono (and isn't syria, supposed axis of evil member an ally in the 'extraordinary rendition' network anyway?)