Who the fuck are Zeitgeist Movement?

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Tojiah's picture
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Aug 2 2011 01:17

Yeah, I wouldn't advise killing all the sanitation workers, either.

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Aug 2 2011 01:52
Tojiah wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't advise killing all the sanitation workers, either.

I never advised killing all the engineers I said I understood Stalin's motivation I didn't say I agreed with killing them. Think buddy...use that noggin. I brought the engineer purges up to illustrate how those who control industry/distribution also control society - Stalin understood this and was seeing how the engineers controlled Soviet society in lieu of the party so he killed them. It's an empirical example of part of Marx's historical conception of history (something most Technocrats know nothing about let alone what it will take to end hierarchical society).

Go fuck with someone else. Cherry picking and twisting what I say is lame.

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of course an advanced industrial communist society needs engineers but they need not be separate from the working class in any way shape or form. This is my point.

And if in "Technocracy" the engineers aren't any different from any other workers why not just advocate anarchism? BECAUSE THE WHOLE POINT IS TO PUT ENGINEERS IN CONTROL OF INDUSTRY/DISTRIBUTION.

All caps? Yo tango all caps?

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Aug 2 2011 02:54

I usually skip what's in all-caps because it is usually indicative of mentalness (or inside jokes).

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Aug 2 2011 04:08
Tojiah wrote:
I usually skip what's in all-caps because it is usually indicative of mentalness (or inside jokes).

I usually avoid people who gain a feeling of intelectual superiority from cherry picking people's posts on the interwebs only to top it of with an ad hominem. You sure did win there guy! Go get yourself a trophy. Buy yourself an ice cream cone. You're very important. Tojiah for the interwebs win!

Maybe one day you can be an engineer and tell us all what to do. I smell upper management all over you buddy! Good show.

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Aug 2 2011 06:22

I agree with everything Crud said. Though the Stalin analogy was a bit unfortunate maybe, I think Tojiah is using that to avoid the actual meaning of that analogy. The Zeitgeist movement is a technocratic nightmare and I think there is an argument to be made that it is effectively based on bourgeois ideology. Cf. earlier posts on their fetishisation of technology and total lack of class analysis. Quite frankly, what have the Zeitgeisters got to do with the revolutionary workers' movement at all?

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Aug 2 2011 06:55
Tojiah wrote:
Harrison Myers wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
What the technocratic utopia lot fail to realize, regardless of plenty of science fiction literature to the contrary, is that robots sufficiently advanced to replace human labor will have no need for humans, and will end up overthrowing them.

They need to watch all 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica in one sitting. That would set them straight.

They'd just think they can become the Cylons. There's no reasoning with these people. They never realize that it is they who will be expunged first.

"Expunged".....you're sounding like Stalin there kiddo. Were you really that desperate to fuck with me that you forgot you typed that only a few posts earlier?

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Aug 2 2011 08:19

I hang out at those forums a lot. It's hard to say something about them that applies to the whole group, as they're pretty diverse and there isn't really any official dogma. One of the few official statements, however, is that the first Zeitgeist movie (the one with the 9/11 conspiracy bit) isn't a part of the movement but just an artistic expression by former spokesperson Peter Joseph. Generally there also seems to be few conspiracy nuts, and I've seen very few conversations about those topics; those that pop up are usually discredited by someone.

So, if you want to know more about what they think, watch the second and third movies. They're long, and a lot of it is aimed at people who've never even considered the problems in the world, so kinda boring and oversimplified for those who're already educated about those issues. And yes, no class analysis at all, and an annoying misunderstanding of what both Communism and anarchism is...
But, one should really watch them before making claims, like unfounded accusations of antisemitism (Jacques Fresco is a Jew, BTW). A lot of the bashing in this thread is kinda unwarranted, at least considering the second and third movie (hated the first one myself).

Overall, the ideas (when stripped of some of the nuttier aspects) are basically anarcho-communism, and the suggestions of Jacque Fresco are very similar to those presented by Murray Bookchin in his "Post-scarcity Anarchism". The people involved are however generally less informed about political and economic theories, thus for instance the mixing in of right-wing "gold standard!" conspiracy in otherwise anarchist ideas.

I've always been in favour of going the anarchist route (arguing about it constantly...), and I think it would be awesome if more people from here went over there and helped steer things in the right direction. Most people there have their heart in the right place, at least...

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Aug 2 2011 09:06
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Jacques Fresco is a Jew

Source?

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Aug 2 2011 10:31

http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/57732/brave-new-world/

An otherwise very critical article that even makes accusations of antisemitism, it however states that "Born to a Sephardic Jewish family in Harlem in 1917, Fresco moved to Los Angeles after World War II."

Also, he grew up in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn (a neighborhood with many jewish immigrants at the time) , and Fresco is a Sephardic name... and according to his wiki, his mother was from Jerusalem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco#Personal_Life_and_Family
(includes a source to a consensus from the Department of Commerce if you don't trust wiki)

Satisfied, or do I need to google some more? smile

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Aug 2 2011 11:15

On the anti-semitism thing, i don't think anyone actually said 'Fresco hates jews', they were just pointing out the similarities this has to older narratives of anti-semitism, hence 'structurally anti-semitic'. I personally am not really down with that accusation, but if you are going to criticize it, I think you need more than just Fresco is a jew. In any case to my knowledge (and I'm willing to be corrected here) Zeitgeist and what Fresco does (the Venus Project) are slightly different right. Zeitgeist isn't Fresco, it is just something that Fresco influenced and the Zeitgeist films arn't the same as the Zeitgeist Movement. I have read some stuff on the internet from 'the movement', and it is sometimes quite difficult to tell it apart from right-wing libertarianism.

You are right to point out the similarities between Fresco and Bookchin, but Bookchin does it much better, without the futuristic technocratic edge. Which is of prime importance and to my mind makes Bookchin a far better alternative.

I personally don't find Fresco so much of a problem as the Zeitgeist 'movement' itself. i think the flirtations with 9/11 conspiracies have done them a lot of damage, and its difficult for me personally to just bracket the first movie and forget about that. Also the stuff about Jesus was just weird and slightly annoying (as well as detracting from the point I think the film was trying to make, while also seemingly tying its grand-narrative of deceit back 2000 years. That is not a critique of capitalism and the state, that is something else).

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Aug 2 2011 11:29

Nope, I'm good. It isn't really important to my problems with Zeitgeist whether he was or wasn't, I asked over curiosity.

Sorry if it took you too much time to look for the information.

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Aug 2 2011 13:27

Arbeiten,

Indeed there are differences; though there used to be a collaboration between Peter and Jaques, the two are in enough disagreement to have parted ways. I agree that some of the ideas of the first movie, while not explicitly right-wing or antisemitic, can easily lead to those ideas, and in fact are shared by right-wing libertarians and ZOG-conspirators. In fact, it went so far that some members suggested an alliance with the anacho-capitalists of FreeDomainRadio, not recognizing the inherent conflict.

Hence my strong personal rejection of the first movie, and continuous arguments on their forums to disassociate themselves from it. Peter himself, both in later lectures and movies, does not IMO exhibit that sort of rightist rhetoric - as per usual right-wing narratives turn our to be the result of ignorance wink

Agreed on Bookchin. The problem with Fresco is that, being an engineer, he has trouble with some of the philosophical aspects. For instance, and I've seen several anarchists complain about this, does he want machines to make decisions and run society for us, or to aid mankind to do it in an otherwise (more or less) anarchist society? Some of his statements make it look like it is the first, some the second.
He also has some trouble distinguish between technical and economic problems, and between the technocratic "one optimal solution to everything" approach to society and the more pluralistic anarchist approach. Nonetheless, I find his ideas interesting. His focus on science as a tool to solve problems in society is often lacking in other anarchist literature, and is reminiscent of some of the work of Otto Neurath.

The Movement, it must be stated, was founded after the second movie. The first remains an artistic project by the founder and former spokesperson of the movement, Peter Joseph. The name was used primarily because the meaning of "zeitgeist", i.e. "the spirit of the times", seemed fitting. So there's kind of a connection, but not a direct one. Sound confusing? It is, and also stupid - they should change the name or at least publicly renounce the first movie.

What we have here is essentially a whole bunch of people with their hearts in the right place, who have a vague idea that capitalism is leaving them screwed and that money/capital really isn't needed for a society to prosper. A lot of them have, they themselves readily admit, not really thought about the problems in the world before seeing the movies. I have argued there, and will continue to argue here, that contact with an anti-capitalist tradition that is about a century and a half old (read: anarchism) can only benefit them.

I dunno, maybe I'm letting my own irritation with sectarianism get to me, and I take the idea of unification too far? I just don't think factual or philosophical errors are any reason to dismiss a potential ally, since those are easily remedied if the basic values are similar.







Toms,

Heh, no I was just being a smart-ass smile

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Aug 2 2011 15:48
CRUD wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
Harrison Myers wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
What the technocratic utopia lot fail to realize, regardless of plenty of science fiction literature to the contrary, is that robots sufficiently advanced to replace human labor will have no need for humans, and will end up overthrowing them.

They need to watch all 4 seasons of Battlestar Galactica in one sitting. That would set them straight.

They'd just think they can become the Cylons. There's no reasoning with these people. They never realize that it is they who will be expunged first.

"Expunged".....you're sounding like Stalin there kiddo. Were you really that desperate to fuck with me that you forgot you typed that only a few posts earlier?

I meant "expunged" by the robots overlords, obviously.

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Aug 2 2011 20:51
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Nonetheless, I find his ideas interesting. His focus on science as a tool to solve problems in society is often lacking in other anarchist literature, and is reminiscent of some of the work of Otto Neurath.

But does Fresco make awesome illustrations of statistics that even illiterate folks can understand? And does he put them in a museum? If he does that, then I might be sold.

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Aug 2 2011 21:19

Sorta. He makes designs that are cool in a 50's retro-futuristic kinda sense, and pretty detailed. So, no, not as cool as Neurath. But few people are. smile

I found him interesting for two reasons; firstly he honestly seems to be unaware of Neurath and Bookchin, and even anarcho-communism as an ideology, but still arrives at something very similar through a completely different path. Secondly, he has quite the following of people who, similarly, seem to never have heard of anarchism yet somehow arrive at very similar (albeit more simplistically expressed) ends. For me it is evidence that the interest in anacho-communist ideas is far wider than interest in the anarcho-communist label. It's also an opportunity to reach out to people and help them understand.

I've read some of the threads on Zeitgeist on here and I have to say that I am very disappointed with the reactions. All very mocking and very aggressive, as though these people have done something actually wrong rather than just being misinformed on certain issues. Misinformation is best cured through education, not hostile rejection. Is this the way in which we hope to attract enough people to our side to make a difference? Making fun of everyone who gets it wrong or has a bad soundtrack/silly acting in their documentary? Really?

Like I said, I hang out at those forums a lot. There are a few anarchist there, and they rarely fail in pointing out flaws and generally being smart-asses in just the right way smile

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Aug 2 2011 21:34

it is pretty annoying when someone tells you you are speaking your 'Zeitgeist'.... roll eyes

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Aug 2 2011 23:06
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Sorta. He makes designs that are cool in a 50's retro-futuristic kinda sense, and pretty detailed. So, no, not as cool as Neurath. But few people are. smile

I found him interesting for two reasons; firstly he honestly seems to be unaware of Neurath and Bookchin, and even anarcho-communism as an ideology, but still arrives at something very similar through a completely different path. Secondly, he has quite the following of people who, similarly, seem to never have heard of anarchism yet somehow arrive at very similar (albeit more simplistically expressed) ends. For me it is evidence that the interest in anacho-communist ideas is far wider than interest in the anarcho-communist label. It's also an opportunity to reach out to people and help them understand.

I've read some of the threads on Zeitgeist on here and I have to say that I am very disappointed with the reactions. All very mocking and very aggressive, as though these people have done something actually wrong rather than just being misinformed on certain issues. Misinformation is best cured through education, not hostile rejection. Is this the way in which we hope to attract enough people to our side to make a difference? Making fun of everyone who gets it wrong or has a bad soundtrack/silly acting in their documentary? Really?

Like I said, I hang out at those forums a lot. There are a few anarchist there, and they rarely fail in pointing out flaws and generally being smart-asses in just the right way :)

"While mostly impoverished during the Great Depression, Fresco claims that it was during this time when he developed the sensitivity and ambition to concern himself with the function of society and the future of humanity.[16][17] For a short time, Fresco took an interest in attending the Young Communist League wherein he caused commotion. After brief discussion and disagreements with the League president, Fresco was physically removed.[11][18] Thereafter, Fresco turned his attention to Technocracy.[12][13] Among the places traveled in his youth was to Florida during his teen years where he developed an affinity for tropical climates.[13] In the mid-1930s, Fresco traveled west to Los Angeles where he began his career as a structural designer in many fields."

We're attacking technocracy and the proponents of technocracy not some misinformed teenagers who think zeitgeist was "cool". As far as Peter Joseph goes watching his documentaries is like watching him personally politically mature from a sort of strange mixture of right wing libertarian and liberal to a sort of technocrat and now some sort of quasi socialist. I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film....another funny thing about most technocrats is the most prominent ones say they're engineers but actually have no degrees (Howard Scott/Fresco).

Anarchists are going to be hostile to any ideology that seeks to put a minority in control of the means of production/distribution.

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Aug 3 2011 09:38
Quote:
We're attacking technocracy.

Good, but Fresco severed that connection a long time ago. And looking at his lectures/interviews he seems both far more pluralistic than the technocrats and also doesn't want society actually run by an elite group of scientists.
There's also been quite a few attacks on Peter, members and the movies, lets be honest... this thread and others like it have not exclusively been an attacks upon technocracy.

Quote:
I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film

Understatement of the century - I think it is vital that he gain an excellent understanding of the above as soon as possible, if the movement is to go anywhere.
Also, maybe you know... take some tips from professional documentary makers?

Quote:
Anarchists are going to be hostile to any ideology that seeks to put a minority in control of the means of production/distribution.

Again, great. But having looked into Fresco's ideas and read his books, he gives no impression of wanting this. Quite the contrary, he stresses that he wishes "all resources to become the common heritage of all of mankind". He just wants production and distribution to be guided by using the scientific method and not opinion, and talks about decisions being "arrived" at in a way "that is not based on the opinions or desires of a particular sect or individual" (Fresco, Designing the Future).

The idea of control by robots/scientific elite is a misconception, since "anyone who tests his thoughts by using his eyes, ears, touch, smell, or taste is using the method of science." (Fresco, Looking Forward)
And "[t]he method is no more an exclusive matter for professionals than it is a matter of white coats and goggles. Most of us are amateur scientists today, though we are seldom aware of it[...] The scientific method is not primarily a matter of laboratories and atom-smashers or even meter sticks; it is a way of looking at things..." (Fresco, quoting Stuart Chase, Looking Forward)
And also "There's no 'Big Brother' making decisions for us. We're given the facts and probabilities, and we make our own choices." (Fresco, Looking Forward)

I wrote the following short piece regarding anarchism and TVP: http://www.4shared.com/document/3io4H_uW/Answers_to_anarchist_doubts__q.html

Besides, even if Fresco turns around and proclaims that he wants an elite controlling the masses, that still leaves about 500k people interested in his ideas purely because they are sick of capitalism and unaware of alternatives... still a reason for us not to violently reject them.

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Aug 3 2011 11:32
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Quote:
I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film

Understatement of the century - I think it is vital that he gain an excellent understanding of the above as soon as possible, if the movement is to go anywhere.

I think that any movement this dependent on any one person is fatally flawed,regardless of how good their ideas are

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Aug 3 2011 11:55
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Quote:
I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film

Understatement of the century - I think it is vital that he gain an excellent understanding of the above as soon as possible, if the movement is to go anywhere.

I think that any movement this dependent on any one person is fatally flawed,regardless of how good their ideas are

its not a 'movement', its a small group of people who like a film, i mean as was debated in this thread nearly a year ago or so, what exactly do zeitegeist people do? beyond showing a few films. I mean with jobs going left right and centre and the welfare state being dismantled around us, with revolts and uprisings sweeping the world, what exactly is the zeitgeist movements 'response' in terms of action.....yep you guessed it, show the film at that crusty pub again next month.

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Aug 3 2011 13:06

i know i forgot the quote marks, that is kind of what i was getting at, its almost entialy passive except for telling other people to watch the films

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Aug 3 2011 14:16

@radicalgraffiti

I think even Peter understands that, hence him stepping down as spokesperson and underlining the importance of local work.
The movies are his thing, though, and the movement sadly still depends largely on them.
Personally I think it would be a better idea if local chapters made their own short documentaries that focus on local problems and issues and suggest possible solutions, instead of trying to cram all the world's problems and the solutions to those into one long documentary. It would be more accessible and relevant.

Overall, more local action like that beyond just showing the films would be great. But like I said, most people just know something's wrong and don't know exactly what or what to do about it.

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Aug 3 2011 21:45
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Quote:
We're attacking technocracy.

Good, but Fresco severed that connection a long time ago. And looking at his lectures/interviews he seems both far more pluralistic than the technocrats and also doesn't want society actually run by an elite group of scientists.
There's also been quite a few attacks on Peter, members and the movies, lets be honest... this thread and others like it have not exclusively been an attacks upon technocracy.

That's because Peter Joseph first two documentaries were absurd.

Quote:
I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Understatement of the century - I think it is vital that he gain an excellent understanding of the above as soon as possible, if the movement is to go anywhere.
Also, maybe you know... take some tips from professional documentary makers?

Take tips from professional documentary makers? No thanks. Both of these men are "professional" documentary makers.

You speak of scientific method and then parade a critique of capitalism based on conspiracy theory- can't you see the contradiction?

Quote:
Anarchists are going to be hostile to any ideology that seeks to put a minority in control of the means of production/distribution.
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Again, great. But having looked into Fresco's ideas and read his books, he gives no impression of wanting this. Quite the contrary, he stresses that he wishes "all resources to become the common heritage of all of mankind". He just wants production and distribution to be guided by using the scientific method and not opinion, and talks about decisions being "arrived" at in a way "that is not based on the opinions or desires of a particular sect or individual" (Fresco, Designing the Future).

The idea of control by robots/scientific elite is a misconception, since "anyone who tests his thoughts by using his eyes, ears, touch, smell, or taste is using the method of science." (Fresco, Looking Forward)
And "[t]he method is no more an exclusive matter for professionals than it is a matter of white coats and goggles. Most of us are amateur scientists today, though we are seldom aware of it[...] The scientific method is not primarily a matter of laboratories and atom-smashers or even meter sticks; it is a way of looking at things..." (Fresco, quoting Stuart Chase, Looking Forward)
And also "There's no 'Big Brother' making decisions for us. We're given the facts and probabilities, and we make our own choices." (Fresco, Looking Forward)

What do you think anarchism's goal is? To let a bunch of monkeys press buttons that decide our fate? As far as the scientific method Marx and Engels beat him to it a century ago and Fresco completely lacks any class analysis , as if the large capitalist can be convinced to voluntarily give up their position in society. It takes class struggle to change economic systems, it just doesn't happen on it's own as the ruling class has never, throughout history, given up its position voluntarily. Another thing, all technocrats SAY they want "all resources to become the common heritage of all of mankind"......if you can quote Fresco saying he wants workers in control of production/distribution in a democratic fashion I'll welcome him to the anarchist movement. My initial advice to him would be don't worry so much about what the future society will look like, right now, our immediate concern is how to get there (as in how to get rid of capitalism and begin paving the road to advanced communism). Again I'll stress that they all read and understand Marx/Engels and the anarchist thinkers.

Apfelstrudel wrote:
Besides, even if Fresco turns around and proclaims that he wants an elite controlling the masses, that still leaves about 500k people interested in his ideas purely because they are sick of capitalism and unaware of alternatives... still a reason for us not to violently reject them.

I reject Stalinists for the same reason.

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Aug 3 2011 21:37
cantdocartwheels wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Quote:
I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film

Understatement of the century - I think it is vital that he gain an excellent understanding of the above as soon as possible, if the movement is to go anywhere.

I think that any movement this dependent on any one person is fatally flawed,regardless of how good their ideas are

its not a 'movement', its a small group of people who like a film

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

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Aug 3 2011 22:34

@CRUD

Personal attacks still don't change anything. Has anyone here written him a letter explaining why it is absurd and helped him understand things better?

Also, I was talking about Peter taking some purely cinematic tips from pros, so that we can avoid embarrassments like the final scene in Moving Forward. smile

As for your "monkeys pressing buttons" comment, Fresco clearly rejects a scientific elite controlling machines and thus in turn the population. I have clearly stated this above, even providing quotes, so I really don't see the point of this comment.

Indeed, Fresco lacks a class analysis. That makes him flawed as a political economist; but he is not really a political economist but a designer/engineer. I am not saying lets make him one of us or publicly declare him an anarchist. I am saying "Oh, look, a guy with no background in political economy who's theories lack any class analysis still comes to a conclusion not very different from anarcho-communism! Isn't that neat? I wonder if his movement could benefit from a better understanding of political economy? I'm pretty sure it would!"

In fact, try as I might I can't find any reference in Fresco's writing to workers or even governance. He seems to be writing about the far future, and assumes that all work will at some point be abolished. This is indeed a great flaw in his writings.

Quote:
My initial advice to him would be don't worry so much about what the future society will look like, right now, our immediate concern is how to get there... Again I'll stress that they all read and understand Marx/Engels and the anarchist thinkers.

I am in total agreement. Their idea of how to get from here to there seams... well, kinda non-existent honestly. Some vague things are said, but no real plan.

Quote:
I reject Stalinists for the same reason.

Stalinist know what they are talking about. They understand the issue and disagree. My whole argument here is that a lot of these people have not even heard the anarchist side of the argument; they shouldn't be opposed until they have and outright reject it.

Quote:
its a small group of people who like a film

You're more or less right. But 500k is not small. And it's not any film, it's a anti-capitalist film that calls for the abolition of money and private property, a sustainable and humane economy and the declaration of all the world's resources as the common heritage of all. Meaning that it could be much
more.

I really can't believe people here. You have essentially half a million people who agree with your basic beliefs, and long for change, but are generally uninformed apart from what those films "taught" them and don't really know what to do practically. So... you make fun of them and reject them? No thoughts of maybe helping along, getting involved? No thoughts on reaching out? What, we're just to sit here and feel superior because we've read the right books? I don't get it...

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Aug 4 2011 21:26
Apfelstrudel wrote:
I really can't believe people here. You have essentially half a million people who agree with your basic beliefs, and long for change, but are generally uninformed apart from what those films "taught" them and don't really know what to do practically. So... you make fun of them and reject them? No thoughts of maybe helping along, getting involved? No thoughts on reaching out? What, we're just to sit here and feel superior because we've read the right books? I don't get it...

For what it's worth, I would agree that the default attitude of some people posting on libcom, at times, seems to be more about ridicule and rejection rather than understanding and persuasion. Is this specific to this forum, or to the local political temperament? No, definitely not. Internet forums are full of that, but so is real life. I have to admit to being guilty of it myself on occasion, although I do try to avoid it.

I think you're at least trying to do the right thing and you shouldn't stop. Don't take umbrage at people's negativity, it might just be that they're having a bad day (or longer period of time).

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Aug 5 2011 07:50
CRUD wrote:
cantdocartwheels wrote:
radicalgraffiti wrote:
Apfelstrudel wrote:
Quote:
I think he could gain much from reading and understanding Marx/Engels and many of the anarchist thinkers before he makes his next film

Understatement of the century - I think it is vital that he gain an excellent understanding of the above as soon as possible, if the movement is to go anywhere.

I think that any movement this dependent on any one person is fatally flawed,regardless of how good their ideas are

its not a 'movement', its a small group of people who like a film

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

again its not a 'movement' in the way that we would define it, it holds no demonstrations, has no stance on any specific real world issues, local or otherwise, and takes no actions on any vague conclusions it reaches beyond ''showing the film again'' and maybe at a pinch 'discussing stuff''. Just because it calls itself a movement doesn;t mean it is one.

Anyways if they are all 'technocrats'' as you say, then they would have no interest in workplace or community organising whatsoever, and thus you have little need to worry about them, since beyond the internet and their film showings you'd never run into them. In practice, if said individuals are interested in practical activity (which i don't see tbh), then its likely that conspiracy rhetoric and technocratic internet philosophies would evaporate somewhat in the face of real world organising and the complex ins and outs of class and hierarchy in a modern workplace or community.

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Aug 5 2011 08:41

I don't think that it is fair to say that we didn't try to engage constructively with the Zeitgeist people who came on this thread. They were clearly not interested in learning more about libertarian communism and were quite rude which is why people responded so negatively. I think they came on here to convert us to their cause more than anything else and then got offended that we could dismiss their ideas with better argumentation. I personally have a serious dislike of the Zeitgeist movement because of my experience of talking to some of its members in France and nothing so far posted on this thread has changed my mind. I admit that maybe I got a bit carried away at times with the fun of putting down a poor argument but it doesn't change the fact that their ideas are mental.

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Apfelstrudel
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Joined: 29-07-11
Aug 5 2011 14:23

@Pikel

Thank you!

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@cantdocartwheels

Tell me about it... I'm currently debating few members, one of whom is openly a right-wing libertarian, about how having a minimum wage is not a bad thing...

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@Malva

Sadly, I seem to be one of the very few who would like some sort of cooperation and exchange of ideas. Most just want to "convert" people to their side. I consider that silly. I'd rather see the local chapters of TZM get involved in local politics; ally with unions, environmentalist groups, etc.
It has the advantage of speaking to a broader audience and tapping into the angry-with-the-system-but-don't-really-know-why crowd.

Lets face it, more people respond to "hey, watch these two movies! money is evil!" than "have you read all 3 volumes of Capital yet? How about the works of Kropotkin, Bakunin, Goldman, Proudhon? The history of Spanish Anarchism? Yes? Cool, lets discuss the merits of federalist organisations, the nature of deliberative decision-making and OR-models of resource optimisation! Fun fun fun!"
My hope is the former might, with guidance, lead to the latter.

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Aug 5 2011 14:29
Quote:
Tell me about it... I'm currently debating few members, one of whom is openly a right-wing libertarian, about how having a minimum wage is not a bad thing...

Minimum wage is a terrible thing. It is a meek concession the state squeezed out of capital to stave off class struggle. The abolition of wage slavery is what we need wink