Do you support Aboriginal nationalism?

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communism_the_new_white's picture
communism_the_n...
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May 13 2007 05:44

...im shocked that ppl could think otherwise...

yuda
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May 14 2007 02:35

>generally- maori/ aboriginals don't even use the land productivly when given it back anyway.

Really? got any proof to back that claim up?

Edit: Never mind, banned already.

Cthenthar
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Jun 28 2007 23:08

Just to get to the original post for a brief moment:

For one, who are these "anarchists" so often referred to? If i remember correctly, Australia's anarchist movement is quite small, and perhaps somewhat divorced from the main campaigns in Australian activism.

Perhaps the reference is instead to "anarchisitic" or autonomous (no, not the movement, like the "Italian autonomists") activists.

But anywhere, all this simply makes me think of this one chant at all the indig protests:

"Always was, always will be, Aboriginal Land!"

And I'm like... errr, fuck off. As an anarchist, I dont believe in private property, so it wasnt "theirs", and thus wont always be theirs. Noone can own land. Neither capitalist, nor slave. No new master, but a community.

This is simply a good example of the nature of Australian activism to lack any sort of solid ideological stading in any campaign. Its a fair critique an American activist I know mentioned. So basically many of the campaigns in Australian activism are rife with reformist shite, or at the very least, even if it pervades to being "radical", is quite misguided.

What I've always wanted to see or hear about is an anarchist analysis of land reform in Australia in reference to Indigenous people, or even better, an anarchist analysis by an Indigenous person themselves. Perhaps there isnt the intellectually radical framework for that, but makes me wish Australia had a Ward Churchill here...

pariahnt
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Jul 8 2007 06:27

Seems to me - that Howard's latest moves - taking over Aboriginal communities in the NT - http://www.pariahnt.org/ - will make most of the so-called anarchists here very happy

They share the same views as Howard about Aboriginal people and like him - know what is best for people

Australian nationalism and its attendant racism and militarism - are not under the microscope here ...

http://www.pariahnt.org/news/content/view/40/1/

... just the aspirations and rights of Australia's most abused and neglected inhabitants

There is no 'anarchist' fix in the pipeline - so how supporting the land theft and demonisation of poor oppressed people - helps the cause - needs to be explained

The last Oz 'anarchist' land proposal I spotted - stated we all stayed put (come the revolution*) - and let local communities 'dictate' housing needs

Fairyland stuff - that failed to even mention Aboriginal people

*an unexplained detail

_______________________________________________

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 8 2007 08:01
pariahnt wrote:
Seems to me - that Howard's latest moves - taking over Aboriginal communities in the NT - http://www.pariahnt.org/ - will make most of the so-called anarchists here very happy

nope, there's already 2 threads saying how shit and racist it is:

http://libcom.org/forums/news/alcohol-porn-banned-aborigine-areas-australia
http://libcom.org/forums/oceania/booze-porn-cause-aboriginal-noncing

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Anarchia
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Jul 8 2007 18:08

pariahnt is a nutcase, Joseph - I wouldn't worry to much about anything he posts. He singlehandedly destroyed the Darwin Indymedia collective and has since proceeded to engage in a campaign of abuse and baseless accusations against most of the other Indymedia collectives in Oceania.

For a taste, read this

pariahnt
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Jul 8 2007 21:09

Hey Joseph K

Sure (regards new threads) - but felt I'd address this thread - which had too few empathetic nuggets amongst the 'Young Liberal' / 'White-blindfold' dross

'Asher's stalking and attempts to discredit our work and reputations - should be seen as harassment

There have never been any charges against our crew made in indymedia process - just years of biased hate/race campaigns http://pariahnt.org/Oz-indymedia/pages/NZ-Aotearoa-racism.htm from these so-called independent media progressives

Paris, Amsterdam, Cyprus etc... blocked the only proposal to disaffiliate Darwin - but Oz indymedia refuse to return our domain or explain why we do not have one - Centralist injustice to which we are supposedly opposed

Having destroyed Brisbane, Darwin, Adelaide and Melbourne indymedia with their autocratic behaviour - these remnants of a 'national' network - now plan to control news 'nationally' and share passwords/editing privileges (between Sydney and Melbourne) - anything but local autonomous news elsewhere by people who are actual autonomists/activists

Asher and Co are dangerous people - politically and personally - Assault and threats were encouraged against our people and continued at our homes and in the streets for over two years - all to the backdrop of race/hate on these 'independent' media sites

Such tactics are pitiful and non-sustainable - as the demise of Oz indymedia (and their local 'bullyboys') demonstrates

http://www.pariahnt.org/Oz-indymedia/
______________________________________

Aboriginal people will survive this latest intervention

The focus on the Northern Territory and its people is welcome - we did our best - http://onemiledam.tripod.com/pages/Pensioner_without_power.htm

so I feel (ironically) vindicated...

...as the Northern Territory government that imprisoned me earlier this year - (Berrimah) for my anti-racism action during our invasion of the NT Parliament in 2002 - is now under virtual Martial Law due to their neglect of Aboriginal people

http://www.pariahnt.org/news/content/view/47/1/

--------------------------------------------

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Jul 8 2007 22:06

pariahnt, your delusions of a conspiracy against you haven't got you anywhere thus far, what makes you think now will be any different?

I have yet to see any attempt at a rebuttal of Takver's well thought out and detailed summary of what happened in Darwin from you - just lies, slander and smears against hard working people in a number of Indymedia collectives.

This will be my last reply to you on here, unless you actually decide to discuss the issues, rather than slandering people. After 2 years of your behaviour, I don't hold out any hope.

pariahnt
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Jul 9 2007 06:45

Asher

Actually there have been a number of rebuttals to Takver's biased gibberish

These hearsay lies from people we expelled - (that Takver and Asher know to be lies) - are irrelevant

Our collective have never been charged with anything under indymedia process - (new-imc concur)

So much for Takver's biased lies - some autocrat in Melbourne who has never met our people

You mob attacked myself and everyone I associated with for 6 years - even encouraging thugs to assault and threaten our people - when we refused to obey your dictates

Get out of my face - I have slandered no-one - my accusations (unlike yours) are entirely true

http://lists.indymedia.org.au/pipermail/imc-oceania/2007-June/003264.html

You do not dictate who we associate with - what we write - or how we respond to your hate and racism - http://pariahnt.org/Oz-indymedia/pages/NZ-Aotearoa-racism.htm

(and never will) - read the POU (Principles of Unity) and stop stalking innocent people

Your network is destroyed - because you are hypocritical autocrats who misused indymedia and abused process - you should be facing charges - the ones we have never faced in open process

Asher's (NZ's) hosting of images of our dead suicided Aboriginal friend and 'articles' such as 'Mi_ck La_mbe is a c_nt' (edited) - are indicative of his hate and bias...

...and his contempt for the Aboriginal people who are members of our Darwin collective

We need support up here - not more hate from 'nationally' discredited liars and autocrats

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http://www.pariahnt.org/

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 9 2007 07:33
pariahnt wrote:
Hey Joseph K

Sure (regards new threads) - but felt I'd address this thread - which had too few empathetic nuggets amongst the 'Young Liberal' / 'White-blindfold' dross

except you're not addressing any of the arguments on this thread, you've just insinuated that anyone who opposes aboriginal nationalism is young, liberal, white and racist (you're wrong, variously, on all counts), then gone off on a personal feud with Asher throwing around more accusations of racism.

pariahnt
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Jul 9 2007 09:39

I tell the truth - if you can't handle it - too bad

Quote - "...generally- maori/ aboriginals don't even use the land productivly (sic) when given it back anyway."

Uranium mining? N Tests? Nuclear waste dumps? Environmental destruction?

Seen what Aboriginal people get from this "productive" use?

A lower life-span (35 in some areas) - 'racial' vilification and oppression - and paternalism from a society that believes it is morally superior to the people they have raped, murdered and stolen from - for over 200 years

------------------------------------

Asher intruded here - and I have no time for people who believe thuggery, lies and race/hate propaganda will coerce or silence us

The NT Police, Federal Police, ASIO and assorted rednecks and racists all tried - and all failed

http://country-liberal-party.com/pages/incarc_p6.htm

Truth is all we got - but it is enough

Hence the censorship (IP blockers, word filters, biased editing) and hatred we face - from these autocratic people unable to refute our accusations

http://lists.indymedia.org.au/pipermail/imc-oceania/2007-June/003264.html
___________________________

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Joseph Kay
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Jul 9 2007 09:53
Quote:
"...generally- maori/ aboriginals don't even use the land productivly (sic) when given it back anyway."

the person who said that was a right wing troll urging people to "vote national" and was promptly banned, as is mentioned a couple of posts below that quote.

S.Y.
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Oct 9 2007 12:14

Firstly, I must say that as an indigenous pereson, (though not indigenous to this country), I can say to the best of my knowledge about the matter that nationalism is not really at the heart of indigenous solidarity campaigns in Australia. Why do I say this? Well, this is because nationalism is primarily to do with the concept of the modern nation-state rather than cultural sovereignty. The modern nation state is premised on an institutionalized paridigm developed foundationally from ancient Greek and Roman notions of polity - similarly, university campuses are also evolved structurally from such foundations. Hence traditional indigenous notions of social organization just broadly speaking, are less complexified to the point where institutionalization does not exist in such sophisticated forms unlike in the so-called West and other countries where institutionalization of social structure has abounded, although this can indeed vary depending upon the intercultural influences present prior to the infiltration of European colonialism. Therefore, I feel it is important to recognize these differences and understand that they highlight the fact that indigenous rights campaigns do not (on the whole but not outright as there are always going to be some factions are'nt there?!) advocate a nationalist approach to the bringing about of cultural heritage reclamation and autonomy of juristdiction. There is no call for a seperate country in the order of an independant nation-state to be formed. The call is for the halting of assimilationism's interference with Aboriginal decision-making, community co-ordination, and cultural continuity. Another concern I must share is that there is a misconceptualization that the "first nations understanding" is inherently racist. We first nations people are not putting ourselves above others, we are simply letting others know that original ways of doing things need to be re-claimed as having validity in a world that has so rapidly and grossly become invaded by and accentuated with notions of living that are exploitative, shallow, devoid of relational significance, and ultimately destructive. But there has to be a warning - there are political forces who will try and use the notion of first-nations cultural reclamation for nationalistic purposes (jumping on the bandwagon!) and this is dire hypocrisy - to start off on a sure footing of what it's really about and then corrupt it with something totally unlike what it's meant to be - especially when this is all done intentionally!!!!!! These forces are the ones that need to be challeneged.

anna x
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Oct 9 2007 12:32

Ah Revol, sometimes I love you, sometimes I hate you. Today, I love you.
gregg xxx tongue

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Devrim
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Oct 9 2007 12:55
S.Y. wrote:
Firstly, I must say that as an indigenous pereson, (though not indigenous to this country),

Everyone is indigenous to somewhere.
Devrim

yuda
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Oct 19 2007 20:34
Devrim wrote:
S.Y. wrote:
Firstly, I must say that as an indigenous pereson, (though not indigenous to this country),

Everyone is indigenous to somewhere.
Devrim

Depends on your definition. I don't consider myself indigenous to anywhere, my ansestors only arrived in aotearoa around 100 years ago and I'm a bastard mix of scot, irish, english, french and maori (this is going back just to my great grand parents). None of which I really identify in being

S.Y.
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Feb 21 2008 14:26

You have absolutely no idea what solidaity is about - if you did you would not be so shallow and egotistical in your comments about indigenous people, particularly since you sounded like you were throwing in a racist jibe dressed up as "intelligent". I thought this website was about solidarity and anarchists are supposed to be insolidarity with all oppressed people - why don't you learn something from that instead?!

S.Y.
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Feb 21 2008 14:31

Absolutely no idea what solidarity is all about !!!!!!!!! I am shocked that you could be so downright factionalistic and reactionary in your attitude!!!! Do you stand against oppression? Are you a true internationalist? If you are then you wouldn't be making smarmey sarcastic rubbing-in-the-shit comments like the one you just made!

petey
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Feb 21 2008 14:32
Devrim wrote:
S.Y. wrote:
Firstly, I must say that as an indigenous pereson, (though not indigenous to this country),

Everyone is indigenous to somewhere.
Devrim

yup. i'm indigenous to manhattan, though i'm not saying that the conditions which brought that about were right or just.
alternatively, every people is indigenous to nowhere, in that, except maybe for those in the great rift valley, every people (definition of 'people' needed) on earth has moved to where they are now from someplace else.

S.Y.
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Feb 21 2008 15:05

You certainly know how to make your views obvious!!! Your comments are full of Stalinist dogmatism! That type of outlook does nothing for building solidarity internationally or locally for that matter! It's just another form of imperialism - cultural imperialism. If you were really dedicated to rallying in support of the rights of oppressed people/minorities etc... then you would have more empathy with the values of other cultures outside the dominant paridigm - especially when these values are not the cause of oppression. The way structures of power operate - whether or not they are hiearchical or heterarchical is more to the point of what is behind social forces and how these play out i.e. whether they oppress or liberate. To rob people of their culture is only exploitation in another form - it is a form of oppression because it is denying them the right to peacably co-exist. Both Nazism and State Capitalism are infamous for enforcing cultural annhilation. These ideologies weren't cultures of equality, sustainability, and liberation so of course they couldn't peacably coexist. They were war-mongering systems which saw anyone who was not in absolute cultural conformity with their militaristic ways as backward and stupid and therefore only fit for the scrapheap. How utterly abominable and obnoxiously evil these regimes were! Liberation is about doing away with all that type of thing, not repeating totalitarian/colonialistic sentiments all over again. Labelling cultures outside so-called Western industrial ways as 'primitive' and/or 'superstitous' is none other than imperialist rhetoric!

S.Y.
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Feb 21 2008 15:15

Why don't these reply posts ever get positioned correctly? When I checked where my replies had been positioned, I discovered that they were not positioned under the posts I was replying to specifically. Just to clarify, the one about Stalinist dogmatism and imperialist rhetoric applies to Revol68's reply to my original one on indigenous rights. The other two posts of mine apply to Devrim and gggreg respectively - the one with the words "smarmey" and "sarcastic" in it is for gggreg. I am neutral about Juda's comment.

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Feb 21 2008 15:16

S.Y. it would probably help people to make sense of your ranting if you were a bit clearer who exactly it was directed at.

And, sorry, but some cultures are primitive and superstitious. Take for example, the Prince Philip Movement. Anyone that believes this anachronistic cretin is a deity of any description can hardly be described in any other terms.

Edit: Ah, you have identified them. The board doesn't attach replies to specific posts, it just lists them in the thread. That's why most people tend to name or quote the person they are replying to in their posts.

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Joseph Kay
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Feb 21 2008 15:18
Demogorgon303 wrote:
And, sorry, but some cultures are primitive and superstitious.

or for that matter the popularity of homoepathy etc in 'advanced' societies such as the UK, just to pre-empt the cries of ethnocentric white supremacy stalino-nazi fascist oppresionism.

S.Y., you can use the 'quote' function instead of the reply one to make it clearer who you're responding to, all new posts go to the end of the thread.

petey
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Feb 21 2008 15:18

in case that post was directed to me...

S.Y. wrote:
Your comments are full of Stalinist dogmatism!

well i've never been called a stalinist before!

S.Y. wrote:
you would have more empathy with the values of other cultures outside the dominant paridigm - especially when these values are not the cause of oppression.

can you define 'dominant paradigm'? and what other cultures are you referring to?
btw my parents are immigrants and are members of a people who were, in fact, historically oppressed. unfortunately many in their situation reproduced the oppression mentality, though a fair number broke from it.

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Demogorgon303
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Feb 21 2008 15:21
Quote:
or for that matter the popularity of homoepathy etc in 'advanced' societies such as the UK, just to pre-empt the cries of ethnocentric white supremacy stalino-nazi fascist oppresionism.

Yes, the "advanced" societies are becoming more primitive and superstitious by the day.

S.Y.
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Feb 21 2008 15:23

This one's to Devrim's most recent reply (21st February 2008) to my post. Indigenous people don't have to be indigenous to a location. If you never knew that one before, well now you do. It's more about cultural identification that has an ingrained sense of justice and egalitarianism. This also counters the notion of indigenous to 'nowhere', because 'nowhere' just aint relevant at all.

petey
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Feb 21 2008 15:34
S.Y. wrote:
This one's to Devrim's most recent reply (21st February 2008) to my post. Indigenous people don't have to be indigenous to a location. If you never knew that one before, well now you do. It's more about cultural identification that has an ingrained sense of justice and egalitarianism. This also counters the notion of indigenous to 'nowhere', because 'nowhere' just aint relevant at all.

communists have their sense of justice and egalitarianism. many are raised in communist households, making this sense ingrained. are they indigenous?

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Devrim
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Feb 22 2008 12:52
S.Y. wrote:
Indigenous people don't have to be indigenous to a location.

Try reading a dictionary:

Webster's wrote:
indigenous

Main Entry:
in·dig·e·nous Listen to the pronunciation of indigenous
Pronunciation:
\in-ˈdi-jə-nəs\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Late Latin indigenus, from Latin indigena, noun, native, from Old Latin indu, endo in, within + Latin gignere to beget — more at end-, kin
Date:
1646

1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment <indigenous plants> <the indigenous culture>
2 : innate, inborn

S.Y. wrote:
You have absolutely no idea what solidaity is about - if you did you would not be so shallow and egotistical in your comments about indigenous people, particularly since you sounded like you were throwing in a racist jibe dressed up as "intelligent". I thought this website was about solidarity and anarchists are supposed to be insolidarity with all oppressed people - why don't you learn something from that instead?!

The accusation of racism is a nice touch. What am I supposed to be saying? 'Everyone is intelligent to somewhere'?

I don't have any sympathy with ethnic or nationalist movements, and certainly have no intention of being in solidarity with them.

Devrim

Carousel
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Feb 22 2008 13:35

Well that's the difference between being "against oppression" and "for communism" for you. Solidarity is about punishing scabs not fluffing minority values.

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@ndy
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Jul 23 2008 06:16

More blah blah blah here:

'Anarchism and Aboriginal sovereignty':
http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=1264