Libcom sounds stupid and Leninist

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professorat
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Mar 17 2006 09:24
Libcom sounds stupid and Leninist

Libcom sounds stupid. Libertarian socialist was bad enough. WTF is wrong with anarchist! circle A

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aketus
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Mar 17 2006 09:42

I don't think libcom is specifically anarchist - twas my impression at first but I think, pr, you'll have a field day with some marxism talk in the above forums roll eyes

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Steven.
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Mar 17 2006 10:18
professorat wrote:
Libcom sounds stupid. Libertarian socialist was bad enough. WTF is wrong with anarchist! circle A

The domain name anarchist.org was taken many years ago.

Aketus, libcom.org is explicitly libertarian communist/social anarchist

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aketus
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Mar 17 2006 11:11

Ah cool - I figured, red and black star and all.. just thought we had a few Marxists here.

Cool smile red n black star red n black star

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Steven.
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Mar 17 2006 11:25
aketus wrote:
Ah cool - I figured, red and black star and all.. just thought we had a few Marxists here.

Cool smile red n black star red n black star

I think a fair few of us would be happy to call ourselves libertarian marxists as well

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aketus
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Mar 17 2006 11:30

State-supporting freedom lovers?

confused

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Steven.
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Mar 17 2006 11:34
aketus wrote:
State-supporting freedom lovers?

confused

You don't have to support the idea of a state to be influenced by Marx. We're all anti-Statists.

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aketus
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Mar 17 2006 11:39

Hehe yeah I figured it was some other aspect of Marx that appealed.. hence libertarian covering the anti-statism - I was just being cheeky smile

Even Bakunin was deeply influenced/impressed with Marx.

EDIT: I'm going to bed folks, it's late-ish here. Talk tomorrow, cheers again for this John grin

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Steven.
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Mar 17 2006 11:44
aketus wrote:
Hehe yeah I figured it was some other aspect of Marx that appealed.. hence libertarian covering the anti-statism - I was just being cheeky smile

Even Bakunin was deeply influenced/impressed with Marx.

EDIT: I'm going to bed folks, it's late-ish here. Talk tomorrow, cheers again for this John grin

no worries you cheeky ozzie! good night

professorat
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Mar 18 2006 15:01

I should have said ' Libcom' sounds stupid and MARXIST.

After all Lenin did not fall from the sky did he. The anarchist nym was taken?

So what was wrong with ' Enrager'?

I get ENRAGED when I see all the hopeless leftist losers flocking to anarchism sometimes. circle A Marxists can just kiss my black flag. So Bakunin looked up to Hegel and Necheav but we don't hold all his idiotice mistakes against him forever do we. Wonder if he was the inspiration for Phileaus Fogg crossing the wild west by train in the 1860's?

Once were warriors. circle A

Mike Harman
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Mar 18 2006 16:49

professorat - You seem to be a bit obsessed with anti-marx rhetoric. Bakunin was the first person to translate Capital into Russian, you know that right?

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what's wrong with anarchist circle A ?

There's loads wrong with what passes for anarchism - people like Hakim Bey and Bob Black for example - should we say "no Hakim Bey without Bakunin and Kropotkin"? I hope not. Both strains have the strengths, weaknesses, sucesses and mistakes, the trick is to understand the actual movements in society - both now and in the past - not replay polemical arguments from the first international or resort to name calling.

Marx's work in Capital is fundamental to an understanding of class society, and contains no suggestions at all as to the organisation of a future society or even revolutionary group. A lot of people who slag him off as authoritarian have barely read any, same as a lot of authoritarian Marxists haven't either - apart from the odd quote in party pamphlets.

(steps away from Oceania forum embarrassed

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Steven.
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Mar 18 2006 16:53
Catch wrote:
professorat - You seem to be a bit obsessed with anti-marx rhetoric. Bakunin was the first person to translate Capital into Russian, you know that right?

Well he was hired to, he didn't actually do it - funny related conversation here:

http://libcom.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=102588#102588

professorat
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Mar 19 2006 11:27

Bakunin took an advance for translating Das CRAPITAL - he never finished the stinking rotten job. Every damn fool knows that.

You seem to be a little obsessed with defending a great steaming pile of rank bourgeois bogshite ' Catch'.

Hakim Bey is anarchist?

Since when? Where? I thought he was some technophobe called Peter living in NYstate anyway - totally out of it.

Bob Black has written some useful articles for anarchists. Even if they date back further than HB they are still fresh - most of them.

But Anarchists are not responsible for every dingbat calls themselves anarchist you know. And then if you want to understand the movements in society do you always hark back quarter of a century?

If you go back there why not go back to the first International?

Marx obviously hated most of the human race by then - if more anarchists knew that the better off we'd all be inmho. We didn't start it with Marx - HE was the one who was obsessed and deranged. First with Stirner, then Proudon and finally he lied about and wrecked the entire project in his snarky quarrels with Bakunin. Marxs work was accurately and forensically described by Bakunin as a fatal recipe for the ' worst tyranny that would ever happen. Bakunin was completely vindicated by the events of 1918-2006 as Marxists began murdering people in 1918 and never stopped one day since.

Marx started it - but we will finish it. We will bury you.

ticking_fool
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Mar 19 2006 12:06
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Marx started it - but we will finish it. We will bury you.

Wow... calm down, you'll hurt yourself.

It's crazy to reject all Marx's work out of hand - there's nothing to compare to that analysis of the workings of capital anywhere else and it's just insane to reject it out of hand by calling it 'Crapital' (very witty, BTW). Unless you've got a coherent economic analysis to put in it's place, we need this stuff if we're not going float off into various forms of individualism and stuntism. Using Marx's work does not imply any acceptance of Bolshevism or any other form of statism, why should it? For the most part it's an analysis of capital which clearly we need to understand if we're going to fight it.

Plenty of anarchist thinkers have done and written some pretty shitty things, that's not going to stop me taking what I need from their work. Why should it?

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Rob Ray
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Mar 19 2006 16:25

Bakunin was an anti-semite, but you regard a lot of what he has to say as useful yes? Proudhon was massively misogynist. Emma Goldman reckoned the masses weren't capable of self emancipation on their own. All made extremely important contributions to our understanding of society.

So why pick out one aspect or Marx's work as reason to dismiss all of it? It would seem illogical for you to do so and continue to cite Bakunin, particularly as none of the above figures dismissed all of Marx's work either.

Incidentally, you are aware that bakunin was a contemporary of Marx, so you too are harking back "a quarter of a century", right?

professorat
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Mar 20 2006 12:06

Anarchism has a fine economic theory AND praxis. Marxism is dull theory that is disasterous in praxis. With so much useful information around now why should busy anarchists bother with a moribund and worthless pile of crap?

We know anarchist economics works in the town ( Spain) and the country ( Ukraine and Spain again )

The vast majority of Marxist academics and economists and enthusiasts are exactly the sort of tyrranical technocrats that Bakunin warned us about.

Marxist economics is proven mad bad and dangerous to know.

The fact that Karl Marx was a rapist, thief, liar, child molestor and suspect in the ' Jack-the-ripper' killings really is besides the point I suppose.

There's no need to personalize arguments when your dealing with obvious criminal garbage like Karl Marx.

Anarchists want to get rid of the state - later for capitalism.

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georgestapleton
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Mar 20 2006 12:22

I doubt it. I don't think the ICC does humour. Unfortunately for all sides.

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Steven.
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Mar 20 2006 12:22

What on Earth are you talking about PR?

And as for this:

professorat wrote:
The fact that Karl Marx was a rapist, thief, liar, child molestor and suspect in the ' Jack-the-ripper' killings really is besides the point I suppose.

roll eyes

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Ramona
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Mar 20 2006 12:48

I have no idea what the fuck yr talking about with those allegations about Marx, but if yr gonna start throwing shit like that around, why do you care about that coming from Marx, but don't care about anti-semitism coming from Bakunin, or misogyny from Proudhon?

In the end, I think it comes down to who has the best beard.

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Rob Ray
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Mar 20 2006 12:59

You seem to be a wee bit mixed up here prof, for example the validity of theory should never be judged on its style (personally I find Bakunin's theory meanders, he had no ability to stick to his point and as I said, some of it was just downright bigoted).

You shouldn't generalise about people who use Marxist theory either, how many have you actually met?

Quote:
Anarchists want to get rid of the state - later for capitalism.

What does this mean?

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the button
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Mar 20 2006 13:01
zobag wrote:
I have no idea what the fuck yr talking about with those allegations about Marx, but if yr gonna start throwing shit like that around, why do you care about that coming from Marx, but don't care about anti-semitism coming from Bakunin, or misogyny from Proudhon?

In the end, I think it comes down to who has the best beard.

A new libcom fact is born. That makes two --

1) Che Guevara shagged a dolphin.

2) Karl Marx was Jack the Ripper.

8)

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Ramona
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Mar 20 2006 13:11
Saii wrote:
Quote:
Anarchists want to get rid of the state - later for capitalism.

What does this mean?

That he's into free market capitalism without the State?

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georgestapleton
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Mar 20 2006 13:16
the button wrote:
zobag wrote:
I have no idea what the fuck yr talking about with those allegations about Marx, but if yr gonna start throwing shit like that around, why do you care about that coming from Marx, but don't care about anti-semitism coming from Bakunin, or misogyny from Proudhon?

In the end, I think it comes down to who has the best beard.

A new libcom fact is born. That makes two --

1) Che Guevara shagged a dolphin.

2) Karl Marx was Jack the Ripper.

8)

But the first one is true isn't it?

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Serge Forward
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Mar 20 2006 13:17
revol68 wrote:
are you the ICC doing a lampoon?

Yep. It's just got to be an ICC job. You'll see. Next month we'll all be denounced (again) in four different languages.

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Serge Forward
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Mar 20 2006 13:30
revol68 wrote:
hopefully on the front cover of their paper!

seriously though, would you be suprised?

Not really. The proletariat of all countries is already holding its collective breath for the next edition of World Revolution.

Or are we getting paranoid? Nah, probably just the ramblings of a lone anarcho-nut job.

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Steven.
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Mar 20 2006 13:43
Serge Forward wrote:
Not really. The proletariat of all countries is already holding its collective breath for the next edition of World Revolution.

Or are we getting paranoid? Nah, probably just the ramblings of a lone anarcho-nut job.

He's genuine. We have heard from various sources that he is "well known" on anarchist forums, and has been banned from a few of them. He's on thin ice here too.

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madashell
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Mar 20 2006 16:08
professorat wrote:
Karl Marx was a rapist, thief, liar, child molestor and suspect in the ' Jack-the-ripper' killings

I'd really love to see some evidence for this grin

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Ramona
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Mar 20 2006 16:11

I heard he was also a racist who ate babies and shot at disabled people for fun.

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the button
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Mar 20 2006 16:13
zobag wrote:
I heard he was also a racist who ate babies and shot at disabled people for fun.

Plus if he's an anarchist, he's probably a paedononce. (c) Jack.

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madashell
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Mar 20 2006 18:30

On a sidenote, the first murders attributed to Jack the Ripper were reported in the London evening news on 1st October 1888 (source)

The Jack the Ripper murders were carried out by Karl Marx's reanimated zombie corpse eek

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georgestapleton
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Mar 20 2006 18:53
Quote:
The Jack the Ripper murders were carried out by Karl Marx's reanimated zombie corpse

See Marxism is a religion. It even has the resurrection.