Response to With Sober Senses

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Mar 7 2013 08:47
Response to With Sober Senses
With Sober Senses wrote:
All I am saying is that people are suspicious of big claims that don't seem to fit with what they see around them. This is I think is important in relation to axxs' point about why the ASF conference wasn't a smash hit.

One of the reasons was the weather but I think you have conflated it wrongly. 'and hardly anyone showed up' was a statement of fact.

But not only that :

Quote:
But this was kinda expected as we had contacted many people individually from all walks inviting them to the discussion and most were busy, but from what we can see there is very little Anarcho Syndicalist activity in Brisbane at all.

I stand by that last statement fully.

I also contacted you as I thought you may actually learn something. It was an open event.

The fact that happyanarchy in particular has appeared to actively work to block the ASF from dealing with the IWW on a working basis hasn't helped either, with absolutely no accountability for his actions required of him from any group he is involved with.

Since you started with things being seen as a 'joke' I'll say my peace.

The IWW in Brisbane as a body made no attempt whatsoever to get involved with the Domino's dispute outside of turning up to one protest out of weekly protests, they have not tried nor made any effort to get involved with regular contact with the ASF, dealings with industrial bodies, meetings with industrial lawyers etc etc. Very few people dealt with any of the drivers at all in the GTWA, including drivers in the ASF, who we approached FIRST asking them if they wanted to take over the roll of secretary of the GTWA to which they said they were too busy with other things to take on the role. We have had this issue with all drivers in the two stores that have been organising in the GTWA as well. People want to be involved and ready to sign up, but no one wants to really do much more than a few ideas and decisions. This is a problem ALL groups have with organising in the workplace as far as I know, not all projects have committed activist members that go the whole hog from the start. It's a learning process. And during it all we have had people not contact us, but ready and willing to post publicly misinformed information rather than simply get in contact or come to a meeting or try and get involved when we have repetitively answered those posts to that effect. They just want to know all about what you are doing publicly, as if you have all the time in the world to just keep them informed in public about your plans and actions while they do nothing to get involved at all.

In regard the Domino's campaign seen as a joke, how disheartening is that to the drivers involved? I put you DIRECTLY in contact with the workplace involved mate. I gave you the name and phone number of a contact from one store. This person is organised with 18 drivers at the time of the first hearing, more since then.

Did you ring them? Did you actually make any effort to get in touch with the workers or are you going to jump on a particular band wagon that seems to be driven by one particular person that has a totally unfounded issue with me? This is very much a directly political issue. It's beyond personal and I am sick of it being presented as such.

You are going to stand there commenting in this thread when that person states there are no members of the GTWA when you know there is and you don't say a word to contradict it? You actually have the contact details given to you when you asked me about all this, and rather than correct him, you turn around and say the Domino's campaign is seen as a joke? Have you actually told any of them they should get in touch as we actually are doing what we say? Have you mentioned to any of them they should actually try talking to us because we are extremely willing to pass on what we are doing and where things are at??

No.

Why is that mate?

Has any one else asked the ASF-B from Brisbane to get involved?

I'll answer.... NO. Not one group at all. Why? Because anything outside the one centralised anarchist group in Brisbane appears to me to be seen as some sort of a threat. Why is that? What kind of mentality would put that forward? Where when I post on the BSN list that we are starting an ASF up here we are told that there is already the BSN, and have to argue our existence. Then when I post stating we are making Brisbane Anarchist Group to produce a monthly zine, you respond stating there is already the BSN and where is the demarcation. When what is put forward by happyanarchy who is 'deeply involved' in the anarchist milieu up here as 'anarchism' is a totally individualist liberal concept?

In fact, when I ended up approaching Happyanarchy as Brisbane IWW contact with literally open arms as ASF Secretary saying we needed to deal with each other and work on this Domino's project together, he was extremely hostile. I was violently assaulted, the incident leaving me hospitalised with broken ribs and punctured lung. Happyanarchy then proceeded to announce to facebook completely FALSE information in regard the venue having no record of the event, nor me being picked up by ambulance. To this date he refuses to accept that he played any part in it. That he did anything wrong.

I have full details of particular individuals actions and inactions (for instance the non payment of hundreds of dollars of workers wages by Happyanarchy of work commissioned by him of an anarchist workers collective) and quite willing to present all the evidence publicly. You know why? Because for it to be libel it would have to be false, and it's all true.

Why did I drop charges against Happyanarchy? Because the video footage Brisbane CIB have is now on file. That's all I need to be able to state the truth knowing that any judge can look at it and see I am stating the truth. I will continue to state the truth about what happened to me by this person and the lies he has put forward publically about me to cover his own arse, supported by those around him that do nothing.

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Mar 7 2013 09:19
Quote:
In regard the Domino's campaign seen as a joke, how disheartening is that to the drivers involved? I put you DIRECTLY in contact with the workplace involved mate. I gave you the name and phone number of a contact from one store. This person is organised with 18 drivers at the time of the first hearing, more since then.

Did you? To me? When?
I honestly don't remember this.

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Mar 7 2013 09:20
Quote:
you respond stating there is already the BSN and where is the demarcation

And my question was actually a question wanting to know what the differences actually are

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Mar 7 2013 09:24

Also as I have consistently said I am just reflecting the impression that comes up again and again in discussions. Here how you have replied above is far more substantial than the 'yes it is , fuck off' approach you and Lugius take - which is totally fucking counter-productive.
Is this how the new Federation will deal with any questions and/or criticisms?

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Mar 7 2013 09:32

And what the fuck mate, what I posted was genuine comradely criticism. And all I get is this explosion from Lugius and then you chime in. There is a bad relationship here. People don't take the campaign seriously. EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG ABOUT IT THAT IS THE CASE. The BASS was huge success, the Anarcho-Syndicalist conference was a fizzer. I suggested some reasons why I think this is the case.
As for BAG again a serious question, what would be the basis for this group? That is all I asked.
In fact my actual question was

Quote:
But how is this different from BSN? Is there some clear line of demarcation?

If there is going to be two groups its fair to know why isn't it?

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Mar 7 2013 09:35

And just to clarify on the contact question I am not saying you are lying I actually don't remember.

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Mar 7 2013 10:47
With Sober Senses wrote:
Quote:
In regard the Domino's campaign seen as a joke, how disheartening is that to the drivers involved? I put you DIRECTLY in contact with the workplace involved mate. I gave you the name and phone number of a contact from one store. This person is organised with 18 drivers at the time of the first hearing, more since then.

Did you? To me? When?
I honestly don't remember this.

It was initiated by your email as below (removed names as appropriate) :

Quote:
> From: XXXXXXXXXXXX
> Date: 18 September 2012 8:44:11 AM AEST
> To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> Cc: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
> Subject: Domino's Campaign: Myths and Realities
>
> Dear XXXXXXX,
>
> I am writing this email in a personal capacity and freely admit that my information is all second-hand.
>
> Firstly I want to start by saying I heard about your injuries and I hope you are feeling better physically and emotionally.
>
> I am writing this email because there seems to be a growing gap between how the Domino’s Campaign is presented internationally and what my comrades are telling me is actually happening on the ground. Internationally it is represented as being lead and developed by drivers themselves whilst it seems in reality this campaign is driven by the ASF with some passive support of a handful of drivers. I think the situation needs to be clarified. Firstly if your campaign ends up being successful isn’t it important to be truthful about its nature so lessons can be learnt? Also it seems many comrades globally are committing time and resources to a solidarity campaign based on an illusion of what is happening on the ground.
>
> I think these issues need to be addressed. I will continue to ask them in the most comradely manner possible and hope that they do not generate any animosity
>
> For communism
>
> XXXXXX ( I am cc’ing this email to XXXXXX)

To which I replied and gave you a full description of what was going on and where we are at, including names of the single store at the time that was organised (there were later 2 stores PLUS the stores of drivers in the ASF), and the contact name (Also how that contact was given to a certain reporter in Melbourne)

I followed this up that same day, I was restricted by being on the phone, part of the email is below with sections removed specifically the email that I forwarded with the contacts name, which was the purpose as stated in my reply :

Quote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:09 PM, XXXXXXXXX wrote:
> Thanks for getting back to me XXXXXX. All the reporting that is happening on
> the internet is not making it clear that there are these levels of activity
> of participation and how much relies on the efforts of comrades outside the
> work-place. The mythology is becoming self-perpetuating.
> Cheers
> XXXXXX

Yea totally understand, all it takes is contacting us! smile

The position we are in is that we kinda know the SDA does not have
many drivers as members, indeed hardly any. We have not been able to
find one that ever was part of the SDA.

The GTWA to put in the F24 want to have more drivers than the SDA can
'pull', and if they have an idea of how many drivers we may have some
problems with them stacking/recruiting themselves to confront what is
going to happen. The strategy is very simple.

Not sure how to respond in public in regard the answers I gave you yet
without discussing it with GTWA, I'm also kinda flat out atm and won't
be able to get to chasing up the threads till the next few days neutral

I have included the last contacts from GTWA in regard the F24 from the
GTWA rep to FWA. Please do not post this on the web!!!!

> From: XXXXXXXX@XXXXXXXXXX
> To: chambers.ross.j@fwa.gov.au

To which was an extended email of contact between the GTWA and the FWA, including the full name and contact details of the GTWA representative at the bottom.

This was explicitly sent to show you and back up the position that we were :

1/ not directing the campaign, but only showing solidarity to the group as per my previous email
2/ actually what we were saying was happening, and giving you the contacts details of the representative.

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Mar 7 2013 10:51
With Sober Senses wrote:
Quote:
you respond stating there is already the BSN and where is the demarcation

And my question was actually a question wanting to know what the differences actually are

I responded. As per the initial email, our group had the one goal of producing a zine once a month. We are explicitly anarchist in membership, principles of organising etc

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Mar 7 2013 10:54

Thanks axxs. I did receive that email. After the explosion on libcom over this I just decided to think 'well time will tell' especially as I am averse to contacting strangers.

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Mar 7 2013 10:57
Quote:
I responded. As per the initial email, our group had the one goal of producing a zine once a month. We are explicitly anarchist in membership, principles of organising etc

So what was wrong with my question then?

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Mar 7 2013 11:01
With Sober Senses wrote:
Also as I have consistently said I am just reflecting the impression that comes up again and again in discussions. Here how you have replied above is far more substantial than the 'yes it is , fuck off' approach you and Lugius take - which is totally fucking counter-productive.
Is this how the new Federation will deal with any questions and/or criticisms?

The Federation is not individuals. Individuals have opinions. The Federation is built for the administration of things.

The Federation will deal with questions and criticisms from the bottom up as with all decisions. It will be representative of the will of the assembly. Criticism is not a bad thing, as we all wish to improve upon any weakness in our freedom. the fight for freedom will always continue.

The Federation will be made up of nice people and arseholes, as that is what society is made up of. However the Federation is constructed on principles that do not allow the arseholes to be unaccountable for their actions, nor give them ability to abuse power. If a criticism occurs it can only help to improve on this. This comes from the way we organise from the bottom up.

in regard the way people have responded, we have asked repetatively for people to contact us if they have questions, but instead, people have layered full on statements on here and other websites, yourself included, saying we are a joke.

oh sorry, 'some people say' we are a joke.

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Mar 7 2013 11:04
Quote:
Did you? To me? When?
I honestly don't remember this.

Quote:
And just to clarify on the contact question I am not saying you are lying I actually don't remember.

The Alan Bond defense. What next?

With Sober Senses wrote on 17 September 2012:

Quote:
I am not sure that is true is it? The ASF formed the GTWA and then tried to recruit workers to it. I don't know how successful that has been.
All my information is second hand, hence I have been asking a lot of questions about clarifying some points that are at best unclear.

If you are serious about finding out, why did you not put this question directly to ASF-B?

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Mar 7 2013 11:04
With Sober Senses wrote:
Quote:
I responded. As per the initial email, our group had the one goal of producing a zine once a month. We are explicitly anarchist in membership, principles of organising etc

So what was wrong with my question then?

Quote:
If there is going to be two groups its fair to know why isn't it?

Only if you are a centralist.

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Mar 7 2013 12:24
With Sober Senses wrote:
Thanks axxs. I did receive that email. After the explosion on libcom over this I just decided to think 'well time will tell' especially as I am averse to contacting strangers.

I'm obviously not as invested in this conversation, but what does that mean? It seems like you are acknowledging that Axxs gave you primary, verifiable evidence and an account of their activities, which you ignored because of an "aversion" and continued to put a position (which I think is fair to characterise as hostile) as though no evidence existed or was offered.

What I find difficult to fathom (and I acknowledge you consistently argue in good faith), is why you remain hostile to these evidenced claims but neutral on the matter of the directly related assault on Axxs and its implications of organisation in Brisbane and nationally. Why is there such a hands off approach and reluctance to address it, given its serious nature? Why is the perpetrator still accepted as having a place in any civil discourse? AFAIK, no local accountability process has been set up and, unfortunately, the IWW opposed such a process for their own member.

If activities like BASS are such a resounding success but there is zero accountability for such a serious assault within it, it isn't worth shit because any individual can wreck it by hospitalising those they disagree with (or when they want to intimidate their ex-partner). The fact that you continue to push that everything is fine, particularly in contrast to the activities of the ASF, but ignore this glaring problem tests credulity.

Another way to put it is to ask you why an informal association with no desire or capacity for accountability is preferable to (allegedly) smaller and formal associations that can work sustainably, hold participants to account and make moderate gains.

Feel free to tell me what I fail to understand about the situation or how you are able to separate the issues in a consistant manner – I'm trying to understand where you're coming from on this. From here, the situation in Brisbane seems horrific. I avoided BASS as a direct result, and I'm aware of others who did too.

Plus it is too humid there.

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Mar 7 2013 13:20
With Sober Senses wrote:
Also as I have consistently said I am just reflecting the impression that comes up again and again in discussions. Here how you have replied above is far more substantial than the 'yes it is , fuck off' approach you and Lugius take - which is totally fucking counter-productive.
Is this how the new Federation will deal with any questions and/or criticisms?

Good question.

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Mar 7 2013 13:28
Lumpen wrote:
What I find difficult to fathom (and I acknowledge you consistently argue in good faith), is why you remain hostile to these evidenced claims but neutral on the matter of the directly related assault on Axxs and its implications of organisation in Brisbane and nationally. Why is there such a hands off approach and reluctance to address it, given its serious nature?

Maybe it has something to do with the way those who make such allegations choose to conduct themselves and the solidity of the ground they're standing on when pointing the fingers at anyone else for actual or perceived untoward conduct. The pointlessness of throwing stones from inside a glass house and then complaining that shards are falling on you is a no-brainer.

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Mar 7 2013 13:44

There's are simpler explanation; WSS is full of shit. (to employ the vernacular)

One only has to look at the time/date stamps of his posts on Libcom and the above emails to work out how genuine the inquiries were. Bearing in mind the International Day of Action was on the 15th of September.

I reject the premise upon which the assumption is made that the ASF-B or the GTWA is answerable to a self-appointed judge of good intentions on the basis of a comradeship that presupposes some shared unity.

Any member of any ASF affiliate is answerable only to the assembly of that particular affiliate and that affiliate alone. Not some poncey privately-educated at a swisho Catholic school middle-class drongo that imagines himself to be arbiter of good taste. I'm in a mood.

ASF affiliates are by agreement are answerable only to the Secretary, as mandated by Congress.

The ASF answers only to the IWA Secretariat as mandated by IWA Congress.

Any member of any ASF affiliate is free to post their opinion to any list but it is never to be considered official communication by any ASF affiliate or mandated function unless explicitly stated.

Anything else is a bonus.

Axxs has been generous above and beyond the call. Had it been me, I would have emailed a scanned two-fingered reply. Trust is earned by honesty. It is not an entitlement.

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Mar 7 2013 14:04
With Sober Senses wrote:
And what the fuck mate, what I posted was genuine comradely criticism. And all I get is this explosion from Lugius and then you chime in. There is a bad relationship here. People don't take the campaign seriously. EVEN IF THEY ARE WRONG ABOUT IT THAT IS THE CASE.

The problem is mate, it's you that is claiming others are saying this, who is it?

Why are you not correcting them when they say it's a joke, when you made the simple effort of contacting us, and you received detailed replies not a problem?

Did you tell these people this? Or are you just passing criticism one way and not actually correcting these false assumptions? How are we supposed to correct them when it's "some people are saying?"

the reality is happyanarchy is saying it and probably propagating it. Those were his exact words before I was banned from the IWW Australia group after pleading with people there that there needs to be a process to deal with issues like this assault on me. And of pointing out that he owes hundreds of dollars in unpaid wages to workers, and refuses to even respond to their requests.

They would not take that shit from the boss, but deal with a person in their ranks doing the same thing, and silence one of the workers saying that he did.

That's the reality. This isn't small shit, this is someone claiming to be anarchist, yet shitting on workers and assaulting people with no accountability or process even being looked at to deal with it. And the person pointing out that he is, iis seen as the agressor.

Has not Brisbane anarchists learnt yet?

With Sober Senses wrote:
The BASS was huge success, the Anarcho-Syndicalist conference was a fizzer. I suggested some reasons why I think this is the case.

The BASS being a success is a matter of opinion in regard what comes out of it, or whether it was entertaining. I personally only turned up for the AS discussion then left. We wanted the discussion to be with other anarcho syndicalists and about federations. instead it was trying to put forwrd what it entails to people. for me it ws dissapointing that at such a convention there was practically nil representin of any anarcho syndicalist groups. I was polite to people but the fact happyanarchy was walking back and forth during it 'like a boss', it was not a safe space for me. .

When this was raised amongst other issues by LR at the end, during a time that was called 'feedback' what happened? This wonderful person stood up in solidarity and put forward how I felt, not only at the event but at a meeting afterward, and was told it wasn't true, that I was happy and had no problems. She was in contact with me and showed total support, she listened to me. I have RIPPER arguments with her in disagreement over politics, yet she stood by me ... What happened?

She received an email from happyanarchy stating that the BASS collective wanted her to formally apologise for what she said about him!!! WTF??!!

.

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Mar 7 2013 14:08
ites wrote:
Lumpen wrote:
What I find difficult to fathom (and I acknowledge you consistently argue in good faith), is why you remain hostile to these evidenced claims but neutral on the matter of the directly related assault on Axxs and its implications of organisation in Brisbane and nationally. Why is there such a hands off approach and reluctance to address it, given its serious nature?

Maybe it has something to do with the way those who make such allegations choose to conduct themselves and the solidity of the ground they're standing on when pointing the fingers at anyone else for actual or perceived untoward conduct. The pointlessness of throwing stones from inside a glass house and then complaining that shards are falling on you is a no-brainer.

So let me get this straight.

Are you saying it is ok to remain hostile to a workers dispute because you don't like one person involved?

Are you saying that it is ok to avoid confronting the issue of violent assault on someone, because they annoy you to tears and are rude to you?

You claim the ground being stood on is unsound. Can you actually state clearly what you mean or are you just going to hint at stuff, hoping mud sticks?

Spit it out son. Stop hiding behind inference, that's a cowards act.

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Mar 7 2013 16:49

I'd like to say that from this end that Brisbane isn't horrific, it may be the nature of having these talks online between only a few people that gives people that idea. There's a vibrant anarchist movement up here; most people who identify as anarchists up here are syndicalists/commies, and are serious about organisation, accountability and workplace activity. Apart from a dispute between two peeps (which is alienating and confusing to alot of younger folk, many don't even know about it), I'd say everyone sees the other as friends and comrades.

The reality is there's a long term dispute going back many years between two anarchists up here involving families, children etc - that people don't really know how to confront or address (or fully understand) and which is increasingly drawing more people in. Because the history of the dispute goes so far back and there's some pretty serious accusations from both sides, it's not being discussed across facebook or the internet. I'd also like to clarify that the fight between these two happened months before at a pub, not at the summer school. As for BASS, there was a serious attempt to circumvent anything happening between these two individuals by organisers, as limited as it may have been. red n black star

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Mar 7 2013 15:18
kuro wrote:
.
The reality is there's a long term dispute going back many years between two anarchists up here involving families, children etc - that people don't really know how to confront or address (or fully understand).

Ok here it is in a nutshell.

I went out with happyanarchy's ex well after he broke up with her. I was involved in a long running anarchist workers collective in Wangaratta that did IT. She would come down and visit regularly. During this time I in they had disputes, but I wanted and did stand clear of it.

When happyanarchy asked for our collective to build a website and host it for him, we did so. It took two weeks and we did it at cost price. That is, we covered our rent and bills. We actually took nothing home in income. We did it in good faith. I have all the emails in regard it. The site went live, and was live for months on hosting.

She asked happyanarchy about moving down to Wangaratta, as 2 of her eldest teenagers were living at my place for a year at that stage, and doing trade school. He said no, and she didn't. She could have done what many advised her to do and just move. instead she asked him, didnt go thru court as a request either, he said no and she didnt. The older kids moved back to Brisbane after completing their school, and I left the collective we had to move up here. I didn't mind, I'd been in Wangaratta 9 years and wanted to move back to a city anyway.

I approached happyanarchy at a gig when first up here to shake his hand and say I have nothing against him, he was extremely agressive and told me the reason he hates me is, and I quote

"You tried to kidnap my children"

Now that's very emotional, and totally incorrect and I told him so. He doesn't care. He has the chip on his shoulder and that's it. Nothing I can say can change that. It's the direct reason he gave me as well for not paying the collective members our wages. Because he doesn't like me.

Now his good friend that works at a certain convenience store told me I should keep trying to build bridges. I have actively tried and have been willing to write off the debt, but this guy is more concerned over some imaginary thing than any reality. He despises his ex and I am just an avenue to take it out on.

I broke up with her years ago, we are still friends, I'm not a hateful person. Well after we broke up, When I did try again to state we needed to put all this behind us and work on the dominos thing, he went troppo.

So fuck it, I have tried giving him the benefit of the doubt, but the guy appears totally nuts to me, illogical and has no sense of decorum, he uses some fantasy about my being involved in some kidnapping as an excuse in his head to justify assaulting and lying about the assault.

Quote:
Because the history of the dispute goes so far back and there's some pretty serious accusations from both sides, it's not being discussed across facebook or the internet. I'd also like to clarify that the fight between these two happened months before at a pub, not at the summer school. As for BASS, there was a serious attempt to circumvent anything happening between these two individuals by organisers, as limited as it may have been. red n black star

Thing is it's not just an issue between individuals. I approached happyanarchy as the ASF secretary to ask him about IWW Brisbane working with us on Dominos. I was explicit over that. I did so literally with open arms.

The animosity was one sided, I'm just not sitting back letting him jut shit over anything anymore. This needs transparency and the community to deal with it as it is not only affecting the local community but national organising, not jut push it under a rug into the too hard basket.

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Mar 7 2013 16:42

Just to clarify, in no way was I trying to imply that you should have to share your story in public mate.

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Mar 7 2013 21:27
Quote:
Not some poncey privately-educated at a swisho Catholic school middle-class drongo that imagines himself to be arbiter of good tast

Is this a reference to me? Cause I went to a public school....

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Mar 7 2013 21:44
kuro wrote:
Just to clarify, in no way was I trying to imply that you should have to share your story in public mate.

No problem, I haven't as it is nothing but really simple. The reality however as presented is that is underlying issue is the cause of all the problems and too hard to deal with. I kinda disagree. All along I have been willing to have no problem, I have worked and talked to his friends over trying to fix things but the reality is that he is an angry and violent person. He has no qualms with lying flat out, has no issue if there is collateral damage in his attacks on me and this needs to be sorted.

Is not a complex issue. I never wanted to take his kids off him, i never tried. i never had anything aginst him at all. his anger and full on attitude of making himself out the victim with his ex is leaking out everywhere and I am just another avenue obviously to abuse and manipulate. I'm totally over it and have absolutely nothing to hide. The hospitalisation then the lies about me and the constant sniping at anything I am involved with is just the last straw.

It's not going to get worked out behind the scenes, it will continue. I have no other option for resolution than to raise this here.

I'm not saying there are not Anarcho syndicalists in Brisbane, but they are few and far between. If an Anarcho Syndicalist convention had little turn out and needed advertising for Anarcho syndicalists to hear about it, it's not a reflection on the group running it, one that is both nationally and internationally connected, it's a reflection on the lack of anarcho syndicalist practice in Brisbane. Having someone like happyanarchy laughing at how little people showed up to it just adds to how much he fails to understand what he is talking about.

I'm not saying it to be nasty either, I think it's a sad reflection on the way things are organised, or lack of it. And i am specifically not placing you or a number of people in brisbane inn that category either. there are great people with solid ideas up here. unfortunately i think. They sidestep real organisational issues due to friendship networks. maybe someone not hooked into that is actually needed to point out this issue?

There is not a focus on actual organising, but a focus on friend networks of people that get along. We shouldn't HAVE to get along. Our processes are important and need to be created and worked on in a way that stops exploitation and power from being weilded, from personalities having undue power, to have individuals held accountable.

If you look at the issues that have for instance held the IWW locked up unable even to answer emails from us, to have to resort to resolution from the US over internal disputes that hamstring the whole organisation, and the fact this organisational method is held high by Australian anarchists and that they see a truly anarchist way of organising as being basically hierarchal, to have them laugh because only a few turn up to a congress when that EXACTLY how they work, to have them actually associate their local IWW to groups like the CNT that organise very differently using core anarchist methodology, appropriate the anarchist image and flags and advertise their totally skewed version of individualism as it, you can see why there needs to be a drastic shake up if there is to be any movement forward into actual anarchist organising.

I couldn't believe that two of our oldest established anarchist groups have to explain to other anarchists what federation entails and justify why they are working toward it, have to argue about how it is basically not centralism, how it does not form informal hierarchies as there are anarchist methods used that avoid these things specifically, grown out of decades of struggle by comrades around the world. Is like trying to explain basic anarchism to a trot. Frustrating as fuck.

Anyway /end rant

Would love to see happyanarchy actually try and argue on core anarchist methodology, rather than get totally owned and run away saying 'bye'. I have absolutely nothing to hide and have all his agreements for example to pay us on file. If he disagrees with points I have raised, put them forward, coz I am totally over playing kid gloves anymore with this issue. It's a pimple that needs bursting.

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Lugius
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Mar 7 2013 21:43

You went to a public school?

Mate, you're a deadset genuine article proletarian hero of the revolution!

So, where did you get the full kit of bourgeois attitudes then? Uni?

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axxs
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Mar 7 2013 22:18

Oh and in the case of LR, anarchists demanding a formal apology from someone for speaking their mind at an open feedback session stinks.

Anarchists I know would say that's exactly where you should speak your mind, wrong or right. Cowing someone with trying to force them into public apologies and seperating them from the commune with no due process in this way stifles opinion and freedom of thought and speech not only from her, but from anyone that has criticism to raise.

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With Sober Senses
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Mar 7 2013 23:05
Quote:
So, um, who is XXXX XXXX and why should we worry about him

The only important point is that a very prominent anarchist lied a lot and the effect of this is a lot of skepticism. I in no way want to suggest there is a link between him MAC, ASF or BAG.

Quote:
What are you defining as a "grand claim"? That, contrary to the claims of happyanarchy and yourself, the ASF did something half-way decent? That they took a leadership role in a small industrial dispute ignored by the SDA (the SD-fucking-A!)? If so, we are at odds on what constitutes a grand claim.

The question can be put back on you; why are you diminishing their modest achievements? If it is because the general public is overwhelmingly apathetic toward anarchism and the ASF as evidenced by the cancelled ASF congress, I can't imagine how they feel about obscure variants of Marxism that had its heyday in the early 2000s (oh yeah, I just went there ).

and from another post

Quote:
I'm obviously not as invested in this conversation, but what does that mean? It seems like you are acknowledging that Axxs gave you primary, verifiable evidence and an account of their activities, which you ignored because of an "aversion" and continued to put a position (which I think is fair to characterise as hostile) as though no evidence existed or was offered.

.
You are right I should have followed up this contact. I will now email axxs about the upcoming May Day Conference and see if this organiser would be interested in participating.

It is undoubted that the ASF have been involved in representing works at FWA Australia. The doubts are about the claims of a membership in the double digits of the GTWA and what role these members have in the campaign (this is the grand claim). These doubts come from the differences in claims that have been made over the last year, the lack of any presence of these members in any public actions ( and yes I understand that precariously employed workers might not be able to be overt, but what about their own friends and family? Surely a group of 20 or so active workers would be able to mobilize a couple of mates to help them out), the small size of the last picket and then the disappearance of any noticeable activity: no meetings, no actions, no updates on the internet etc
Also if the GTWA is all it is meant to be it would be the largest actual AS union in Australia in a very long time. It was surprising then at BASS when comrades from the ASF presented on Anarcho-Syndicalism it was a very general level theory discussion - I was expecting that the Dominoes campaign would be front and center and that members would present on their actual experiences in building the largest AS union in Australia. Why weren't these members at the X conference on Anarcho-Syndicalism? axxs says that

Quote:
I'm not saying there are not Anarcho syndicalists in Brisbane, but they are few and far between

yet there is also the largest AS union in Australia?
These are the reasons for the doubts which I think are common to the comrades I speak with. What I have been saying in both these two threads is that if we are wrong the method of correcting our wrongness hasn't been very effective. I would think that is good feedback for the campaign.

As the the conflict between axxs and happyanarchy. To me personally, it sounds horrible and truly upsetting. I don't feel that I am in any position to advice anyone about anything in relation to it

I would like to agree with Kuro when they say

Quote:
I'd like to say that from this end that Brisbane isn't horrific, it may be the nature of having these talks online between only a few people that gives people that idea. There's a vibrant anarchist movement up here; most people who identify as anarchists up here are syndicalists/commies, and are serious about organisation, accountability and workplace activity. Apart from a dispute between two peeps (which is alienating and confusing to alot of younger folk, many don't even know about it), I'd say everyone sees the other as friends and comrades.

I am constantly impressed with BSN . Its presentation at BASS where they went through their own activity with an honest and critical eye was a testament to their serious approach and their general radness
cheers
Dave

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With Sober Senses
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Mar 7 2013 23:53
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You went to a public school?

Mate, you're a deadset genuine article proletarian hero of the revolution!

So, where did you get the full kit of bourgeois attitudes then? Uni?

It seems Lugius that your criticisms of me are related to what you imagine my class position is and who I am as a person. But beyond a cursory google search I don't think you really know anything about me. I am sure the next thing you are about to do is some inflated attack on me for working at a uni. Since I am only employed as a sessional I don't only work at university. In the last few months I have also been a picker in a warehouse and I am about to start working as a clerk. Perhaps you can work out some kind of fraction just to see how horrid and terrible I actually am and thus deduce everything from there?

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Mar 8 2013 01:41

WSS, mate. You've got me wrong.

If you're a sessional tutor then you would know that irony is spelt I-R-O-N-Y.

I don't a shit what your class background is - you or anybody else. I take people as they come. I didn't join the MAC or the ASF to make friends. You are happy to presume with regard to others but don't like it when a presumption is made of yourself.

How about you worry about your own workplace instead of sitting in judgement of others? Why don't you get serious and join the ASF-B? Unlike a specifically anarchist group like the MAC, you don't have to be an anarchist. Don't expect everybody to be your mate. But you can expect full support if you pick a fight with your boss. If you bung on a blue, then you can talk about comrades.

Quote:
I am constantly impressed with BSN . Its presentation at BASS where they

Are you now? Well, why don't you participate. Why not join?

Lumpen wrote:

Quote:
If activities like BASS are such a resounding success but there is zero accountability for such a serious assault within it, it isn't worth shit because any individual can wreck it by hospitalising those they disagree with (or when they want to intimidate their ex-partner). The fact that you continue to push that everything is fine, particularly in contrast to the activities of the ASF, but ignore this glaring problem tests credulity.

Please share with us what your considered opinion is with regard to this. What do all the people who you talk to who are highly suspicious of the ASF and regard the Domino's campaign as a running joke think about this?

Quote:
As the the conflict between axxs and happyanarchy. To me personally, it sounds horrible and truly upsetting. I don't feel that I am in any position to advice anyone about anything in relation to it

How about taking a stand against violent intimidation. By doing nothing, you tacitly condone it. At least the Melbourne IWW took a stand against harassment.

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Lugius
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Mar 8 2013 02:06

WSS wrote:

Quote:
The only important point is that a very prominent anarchist lied a lot and the effect of this is a lot of skepticism. I in no way want to suggest there is a link between him MAC, ASF or BAG.

Oh, come on! Mentioning it in the same sentence is clearly meant to imply that the ASF and the MAC are liars also. Then you pretend that you didn't receive any information from axxs about Domino's campaign. You're full of shit.

Quote:
It is undoubted that the ASF have been involved in representing works at FWA Australia. The doubts are about the claims of a membership in the double digits of the GTWA and what role these members have in the campaign (this is the grand claim). These doubts come from the differences in claims that have been made over the last year, the lack of any presence of these members in any public actions ( and yes I understand that precariously employed workers might not be able to be overt, but what about their own friends and family? Surely a group of 20 or so active workers would be able to mobilize a couple of mates to help them out), the small size of the last picket and then the disappearance of any noticeable activity: no meetings, no actions, no updates on the internet etc
Also if the GTWA is all it is meant to be it would be the largest actual AS union in Australia in a very long time. It was surprising then at BASS when comrades from the ASF presented on Anarcho-Syndicalism it was a very general level theory discussion - I was expecting that the Dominoes campaign would be front and center and that members would present on their actual experiences in building the largest AS union in Australia. Why weren't these members at the X

Explain why the GTWA or the ASF is obligated to provide detailed information about an ongoing campaign to you. Let me ask you this; have you ever been directly involved in an industrial dispute?

I have pointed out before the GTWA is not answerable to you.

Quote:
Anarcho-Syndicalism it was a very general level theory discussion - I was expecting that the Dominoes campaign would be front and center and that members would present on their actual experiences in building the largest AS union in Australia. Why weren't these members at the X

So why not ask a question on the day?

But while we are on the topic of grand claims, I seen on libcom the claim being made that there are over a hundred members of the IWW in Australia. I've been told they have over 30 members in Melbourne. Hardly saw hide nor hair of them at the protest actions down here in Melbourne. Surely they have friends and families - are you not suspicious? Is this not the IWW the largest AS union in Australia? What steps have you taken to verify these claims? Given your experience with old anarchists telling lies, I bet you are quite skeptical, aren't you, Dave?

Please share with us your suspicions about the IWW, the people reading this forum have a right to know, do they not?

For the record; the Sydney IWW were exemplary in their response to the call for solidarity with the GTWA campaign and are deserving of the highest commendation.

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Mar 8 2013 02:55
Quote:
Let me ask you this; have you ever been directly involved in an industrial dispute?

Yes, both in workplaces I work in and on the picket lines for other sites out on strike.