The need to link up in australia and new zealand

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knightrose
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Mar 2 2007 17:02

Looks good. Very pretty! smile Is there anything we over here can do to help?

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jason
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Mar 3 2007 00:59
John. wrote:
Hey all, just to say good luck with this, and I'm really really glad libcom is being of help to you to get in touch with people and everything (first I thought maybe this thread was some nutty idea to build a massive fucking bridge or something)

And jason, go crazy with the star, but on a very petty branding note in any final version could you flip it or rotate it a bit or something? cos the 20 degree rightward lean is kind of our logo thing...

Hey John. I was gonna write a thankyou letter to libcom if this thing gets off the ground - but that's far from a sure thing at the moment.

Yeah, in the final version we'll make the star an 18 degree rightward lean so people will be able to clearly distinguish it from libcom. :wink: Actually, when I get the time I'm gonna play around with a 'southern cross' made of black and red stars and see what people think.

If all goes well I guess we'll be in contact with you guys about linking to libcom etc.

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jason
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Mar 3 2007 01:02
knightrose wrote:
Looks good. Very pretty! smile Is there anything we over here can do to help?

Thanks. Will let you know.

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@ndy
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Mar 3 2007 04:22

A listing of @ and libertarian grps in Oceania:

http://anarchy.org.au/?page_id=4

mikabill
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Mar 3 2007 07:48

this is exciting to see something grow out of nothing
bill

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jason
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Mar 4 2007 00:01
@ndy wrote:
A listing of @ and libertarian grps in Oceania:

http://anarchy.org.au/?page_id=4

Eco-activism? Aboriginal nationalism? West Papuan National Liberation? That's casting the net a little wide, no?

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@ndy
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Mar 4 2007 07:02

Hi Jason,

Yes and no:

Quote:
Please note that: -
a listing is not necessarily an endorsement...

The purpose of the listing is to provide links to @ and other radical -- and some not-so 'radical' -- groups and projects on the basis of location (Oceania / South-East Asia) and in acknowledgement of the active involvement of @s in diverse projects, not all of which are explicitly anarchist. Further, the list provides links to more general groups and projects which touch on issues of concern to @s, and which may provide a means of enabling anarchists across different sectors and struggles to link up.

More specifically:

Inre 'Aboriginal nationalism': I assume that yr referring to the Black GST campaign? If so, I would argue that this campaign is not a 'black nationalist' one; at the very least, it raises important issues which have been, and continue to be, discussed, among anarchists and others, regarding the implications of living in a (post-)colonialist state. Both indigenous and non-indigenous Australians were involved in this campaign, and the relationships that have been formed as a result -- and those which preceeded it -- are ongoing. It's worth noting in this context that the meaning and significance of the concept of 'sovereignty' is subject to multiple and often contradictory interpretations, among both indigenous and non-indigenous peoples... maybe I will comment further on this in the appropriate thread.

Inre 'eco-activism': again, there are a number of reasons for listing such groups as GECO. One is that a number of anarchists are and have been actively involved in the struggle to preserve the forests of south-east Gippsland -- one of the reasons police conducted a number of raids and searches among the Goongerah community in the wake of G20. Another is that many environmental activists experience their first introduction to libertarian forms of organisation and struggle via such avenues...

Finally, inre West Papua: one reason for listing the Free West Papua group is because of West Papua's proximity to Australia (and Aotearoa / New Zealand) and the fact, like other such struggles, the struggle to free West Papua from domination by the Indonesian state raises a number of other important issues with regards the concept and practice of 'self-determination' in anti-colonialist struggles, and provides one avenue by which anarchists from outside of West Papua may connect with those within it who are sympathetic to the struggle against all forms of domination, especially those of a statist nature. Some of the implications of this struggle are spelt out in in the link to Solidarity South Pacific.

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Steven.
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Mar 5 2007 12:15

cheers jason, well best of luck!

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jason
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Mar 6 2007 02:42

After libcom's lawyer's contacted me, I changed the red/black star to a southern Cross. Check it out:

admin: removed at user request

Who else wants to help out coz I'll create a new account and pass on the username and password?

Spassmaschine
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Mar 6 2007 11:48

Nice work with the southern cross, jase. I am interested in helping get this site up and running, so feel free to PM me the access details.

bastarx
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Mar 6 2007 23:25

hey Jase

Gotta say that even detourned I don't think you should be using the Southern Cross given its nationalist connotations. I know its rebel origins but I think it's been thoroughly recuperated by now.

cheers
Pete

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jason
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Mar 6 2007 23:48

I know. I was in two minds about it for a while, but its on every flag in the region so I don't see how any nation can claim it as "theirs". Its not the rebel Southern Cross of the Eureka Stockade, its just the regional emblem of the Pacific made black and red.

But yeah, its not my site and when we get more people on board they may have similar reservations and it may change before being publicly launched.

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Anarchia
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Mar 7 2007 00:12

The Southern Cross really has no relevance in Aotearoa other than in the national flag - it's only in Australia that it has any non-flag based connotations (ie Eureka stockade) and even there it seems to have been co-opted and used by plenty of other groups (ie - fascists).

Plus, the 5th star in the cross only appears in Australia, as far as I know. Nobody here would draw it with 5, thats for sure.

bastarx
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Mar 7 2007 01:53

The fact that every nation in the region uses it is hardly a point in its favour. Inter-nationalism is still nationalism.

I'm inclined to think that here the Southern Cross (apart from its use on the national flag) is an emblem of working class rather than official nationalism. Which is probably even more reason not to use it given the racist history of the unions and ALP.

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Spartacus
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Mar 7 2007 11:08

i'd be up for helping with this as much as i can, given that i've only recently arrived in this hemisphere so don't know the ins and outs of politics here (though i'm guessing it's pretty much same same as everywhere else yeah? just with words pronounced slightly wrong?) can't seem to see the site at the moment though, googlepages tells me it doesn't exist, dunno what's going on with that.

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jason
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Feb 18 2013 22:27

*

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jason
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Mar 7 2007 23:18

I think this southern cross has nationalist connotations:

And since its historically been used by various Stalinists, republicans, unionists, anarchists and ultra-nationalists, it deserves a wide berth.

But a rendition of the constellation I take as simply emblematic of the region. Opinions noted though, and if enough people think its dodgy it will change.

jeremytrewindixon
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Mar 22 2007 03:56

The flag you show Jason can be distinguished from the Southern Cross as the "Cross of the South" (or "Eureka Flag").

As in:

Peter Lalor he cried in the dust where he lay /
And these wild words poured from his mouth /
"You can murder us all in black tyranny's name /
But you can't kill the Cross of the South....."

Or something like that.

It is also the "flag of blue" (sometimes "flag of stars") mentioned inthe Ballad of 1891:

Billy Lane was with us then /
His words were like a flame /
The flag of blue above him waved /
He spoke Eureka's name. /
"Tomorrow" said the squatters /
"You may not be so gay /
We're bringing up free labourers /
To take the clip away. "/
"Tomorrow", said the strikers /
"You may not be so keen.....

Well I'm getting a bit carried away. But the flag has honourable history, I wouldn't want tp abandon it to the nationalists just yet.

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jason
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Mar 22 2007 23:26
Quote:
But the flag has honourable history, I wouldn't want tp abandon it to the nationalists just yet.

But I think its a priori nationalist because it was invoked during a rebellion against British authority and the attempted establishment of the Republic of Victoria. I don't think the Eureka stockade flag will ever be divorced from nationalist sentiment.

frew
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Mar 24 2007 23:02

This looks good!
Really good.
(Been watchin' but have had nothing to contribute). black bloc
I agree that the Southern Cross thing is unfortunately tinged with Nationalism. (Four stars might be better.)
I like the Eureka flag because of its connotations to rebellion. I've seen someone do up one with a Black background, rather than blue, that was really cool. Even so, it is a flag specific to Australia, and it doesn't help with building solidarity with non-Australians.
Is Australo-Pacific (from website) the best description we can think of for the region? (I can't think of better, but I think we should try to top this.)

jeremytrewindixon
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Mar 26 2007 02:23

Jason, maybe off the track of this thread....but the Eureka flag so far as I know apart from the particular demands of the miners it was associated with the Ballarat Reform League's call for manhood suffrage. By no coincidence there were a lot of Chartists around Ballarat (Lalor who as often in such cases represented the right of the movement spoke contemptously of "Chartist yap") and others who had been involved in Europe's "year of revolutions" 1848/9. I hadn't heard that any faction called for Victoria to leave the Empire......but I can't say that I would necessarily see that as a bad thing!

Now, maybe this is a difference in politics (worth discussing if so) but I see Anarchism as a development of the democracy movement; and thus see Chartism and the like as part of our roots. (Which they clearly are from a historical perspective, I would argue also from a conceptual perspective)

In Australia the famous Anarchist and Wobbly Monty Miller began his career as a radical activist at the Eureka rebellion, at the age of 14 helping wounded rebels escape. He remained throughout his long life proud of his role at Eureka , to the point of exaggerating it, and would I think have been surprised to learn Eureka was just a bit of nationalist nonsense. In Australia the Eureka rebellion is thus part of our Anarchist roots from a historical viewpoint.

It is true that the Eureka flag was later raised at the Lambing Flats race riots; this is unfortunate but shouldn't lead to confusion between the two events. The Eureka rebellion was very much a mult-racial affair, an American ex-slave was one the most prominent of the rebels later tried for his life, and acquitted. And the Eureka flag has since been firmly associated with the militant lbour movement in Australia. It is true that radical nationalists including fascists have attempted to grab it for themselves but I don't think we should let them!

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jason
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Mar 26 2007 03:32
frew wrote:
This looks good!
Really good.
(Been watchin' but have had nothing to contribute). black bloc
I agree that the Southern Cross thing is unfortunately tinged with Nationalism. (Four stars might be better.)
I like the Eureka flag because of its connotations to rebellion. I've seen someone do up one with a Black background, rather than blue, that was really cool. Even so, it is a flag specific to Australia, and it doesn't help with building solidarity with non-Australians.
Is Australo-Pacific (from website) the best description we can think of for the region? (I can't think of better, but I think we should try to top this.)

Thanks man. All comments are welcome. If you wanna get more involved let us know. There is a few of us and we've set up an e-mail list. Not much has been happening lately, I wonder if people are busy or something.

An yeah, Jeremy, maybe we need a whole other thread to discuss the history and implications of Eureka. My own knowledge of the event is quite basic...

Skraeling
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Mar 26 2007 05:31
frew wrote:
Is Australo-Pacific (from website) the best description we can think of for the region? (I can't think of better, but I think we should try to top this.)

I like Oceania better than Australo-Pacific. Or South Pacific. IHMO Australo-Pacific comes across as being a wee bit Australian-centric on first impression.

yuda
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Mar 26 2007 07:07

Yip Oceania works for me. Not really fussed on the flag thing either