Bilderberg 2011

I don't think much of whats said about the Bilderbergs is true. That said, associating the injustices and consumerism of capitalism with the machinations of individuals with immense wealth is anti-materialist; it is counter to a materialist conception of history. Feudalism, slavery, 'Asiatic' despotism, these were all exploitative, brutal modes of production; groups of the wealthiest and most powerful men didn't sit in a private room and decide the change from slavery to feudalism or feudalism to capitalism. They did not decide to create dehumanizing, atomizing, alienating forms of substinence or the organization of class society of different epochs.

Instead of focusing on the negative, liberal "we have to have a revolution against them" you should be focusing on a positive "we need a revolution for us".

Most anti-NWO groups I'm aware of are either noticably unbalanced (Reptilian shapeshifting Illuminati) or breaking the scale of reactionary ideology ('Jewish Bolshevism', etc).

I love the fact that you think that this has been done in 'complete secrecy' while linking to a wikipedia page. Anything that can be googled instantly is not secret.

The rich rule the world (within the constraints of capital/economic forces) and meetings where they all get together will have an element of that but it's hardly a secret conspiracy, it's just logical. I'd echo the statements above. We are looking to change the world because the way it is organised is wrong, the logic of conspiracies is that it is a secret group responsible for the problems rather than the system itself.

I certainly cannot speak for Dev1 but I think his claim of the op's viewpoint as being anti-materialist comes more from what is implied in statements like this:

Certainly, the ruling class "manages" society but they did not mold "us" (presumably the working class). Capitalism did not come about from the heads of would-be capitalists.

So yes, while it is true that the ruling class conspires amongst itself (and against itself!) this fact alone itself isn't something very interesting. The elimination of every "capitalist" wouldn't end capitalism.

I am taking the piss a bit here and do so out of love... I would hate for you to be offended by it and use that as a reason to discontinue learning or discovering or fighting etc.

But I wonder if you frown when you seriously consider joining an activist group? I wonder if your activism will rely on your continued membership in a "group"? If it isn't cool or emotionally rewarding will your activism continue?

Im not suggesting that it won't. Im merely pointing out that there can be "seriously" difficult obstacles to becoming or continuing to be "active", and these are often very indirectly related to external forces outside of activism and its communities, and much more directly related purely to how you relate to yourself and the other activists around you. Activists can be a nasty bunch just like wombats and politicians. Are a few nasty comments or ego slaps or disagreements going to render you "inactive". If you are aware of what these obstacles may possibly be and can be prepared for them, then your contiued "activity" is far more likely, hence the likelihood of its being effective to some degree.

My advice in never consider anything too seriously. There is no govenor. For example I would like to one day enjoy chilli crabs... in the meantime my tastebuds do not allow it... but I am still eating!!!!!

I suppose I'm trying to light heartedly cajole you into becoming active so your speculation can transcend into experimentation. Your passion and curiosity appear real through this screen...

Fuck the Bilderbergers and build a burger from confiscated capital. Steal some meat or better yet reclaim some land and own the product of your labour and grow some veges and build a burger (bread is in my experience by far the easiest capital to reclaim - usually from designated waste disposal areas).

Meet secretly with some black ops gardeners and show those bulldabuggers whose boss!!!

I meant his overall analysis of capitalism- that it is a conspiracy of malevolent individuals. That is anti-materialist. Sheldon explained it well.

I don't think it's as Machiavellian as you make it out to be, especially in more recent times where there are simply to many variables for a small ruling elite group like the bilderberg to have total control. (Think about the recent B.P Oil leak in the gulf, that's a major fuck up that simply wouldn't happen if the Ruling elite were as clever as you say they are)
It is definetley possible to manipulate certain sections of society for a certain amount of time and of course it happens all the time. But dictators, corporations etc rise and fall all the time and not always to other ruling elites. If there is a conspiracy then it is capitalism itself, a system that gives the winners greater power in order to consolidate their winnings and preserve the status-quo, thus giving the impression that a Bilderberg-esque group controls the world

As you say in your OP capitalist society is pretty horrible. But i think it would be 100x worse if we were being molded as you put it. Above all it is a very disempowering line of thought, what chance to we have against such omnipotence?

Unlimited, you seem like a goodhearted fella and you clearly want to change things for the better. However, as others have pointed out, your analysis of capitalism and power is way off. This misunderstanding is relatively common, but pernicious because it affects the ways you and others can confront real conditions and struggle for a better world.

Firstly, not to quibble, but its impossible that one family could control '300-500 trillion USD' since the total estimated global GDP is only around $58 trillion right now. Also, there are real and important differences between the ways that capitalism functions and the way that slavery functions. The two are not reducible to each other. You need to get your head around these issues if you aim to analyze something as large and complex as the world capitalist system.

Secondly, the JFK assassination is an interesting episode, but speculation about who did it and why is takes up a lot of energy that could be better spent examining the structural tendencies of capitalism and the state or, better yet, actually organizing and struggling with fellow workers or folks in your community.

Lastly, and most importantly, your conspiracy theory worldview is just plain illogical and flawed. Just think about the political consequences of your Rothschild theory. You are arguing that a shadowy cabal of international financiers are working behind the scenes for a hidden agenda bent on destroying nations and economies, with the ultimate goal of world domination.

Beyond the fact that the Rothschilds are of Jewish descent, your argument is structurally antisemitic, whether you intend it or not. Because capitalism is such a vast and complex system, it is easy to on analyses that personify certain of its tendencies and equate its destructive dynamics with particular social groups. But this is fundamentally false and leads to dangerous politics.

The demonization of international, parasitic, finance capital and the lionization of national, productive, industrial capital has a long and bloody history. I'm not saying that you're doing this, but this stance follows from your personification of financial capital in the form of shadowy conspirators.

This tendency to equate the evils of capitalism to Jews and bankers led 19th century socialists to declare that, "Antisemitism is the socialism of fools."

No offense, but 'Zeitgeist'-style, 9/11-truth, Bilderberg, NWO conspiracism is the socialism of fools for the 21st century. And you won't find any sympathy for those views around here.

Start reading through the articles and history works on this website. You'll find some great analyses of capital and the state and excellent histories of how people all over the world have fought back in meaningful and exemplary ways. It will be worth it!

no, he had a perfectly good view (i've been there) and it has been demonstrated endlessly that a good marksman could easily shoot those bullets in that time. nothing miraculous about it.

Somehow I doubt a Trot would possess that kind of skill.

Obviously they'd be shocked to not be firing upon someone with evolutionary politics but I'm sure they wouldn't let that put them off.

Nutcase:


VS

Nutcase:

I don't think anyone is accusing you of that, its just that most conspiracy theories have their roots in old antisemitic ideas, especially the NWO based stuff, which is why it was said that your argument was "structurally antisemitic", meaning that although what you're saying is not overtly antisemitic, the structural form is exactly the same as the antisemitic one.

As to JFK and the magic bullet, a bunch of physicists 'proved' it was possible (don't remember seeing any peer reviews though) why the fuck they spent so much time examining whether this was possible, I don't know. Even if JFK murder was a conspiracy, so what?

Rich and powerful people do conspire to increase their wealth, power and influence. But they do this at each others expense as well as ours. The abolishment of money can only occur with the total transformation of human social relations, as money is an institutional form of the current social relations. It is not some racket or trickery by conspiracitoral families of super rich magicians.

If you don't want to accuse someone of being antisemitic then its probably best not to use a word which includes the word 'antisemitic'. Antisemitism may well be structurally conspiratorial but it doesn't follow that all conspiracy theories inevitably fall into antisemitism. That doesn't mean they aren't wrong though.

right, a youtube video with conspiracy nuts is far more reliable. sorry.

there are only 14 minutes in that video. i guess the incriminating parts have miraculously been removed.

The backup:

Marx: Capital

You are basing your views on how the world works on short video clips and dubious information compiled by conspiracy theory websites. This website has a very large library; if you want to learn how the world actually works instead of accepting at face value wild theories posted on the internet, it takes patience and a will to learn. Political economy, historical materialism, the history of the workers movement, the revolutionary tendencies and theories of the last 200 years- it's a very big topic. A few links and overarching statements aren't enough to compile the hisotry, theory, study and experience of the labor movement on a discussion forum, and convince you it's more correct than what you've posted.

The thing is, so what? It's like people desperate to prove 9-11 was an 'inside job' as if that changes anything. We know the ruling class are perfectly prepared to resort to murder to pursue their ends - they maintain standing armies for the purpose. We also know they're prepared to do this to 'their own people' whenever it's judged necessary (from what's happening overtly in Egypt now to COINTELPRO, the Bologna railway station bombing etc). What most strikes me about conspiracy theories is how utterly inconsequential they are. Say you're right: what changes?

Well I don't think people 'waking up' to some new theory of an assassination half a century ago is likely to change anything. Wasn't there that poll showing 40%+ of New Yorkers thinking the government was implicated in 9-11? I'm pretty much aping Chomsky here, conspiracy theories being the opposite of structural analysis: the enemy isn't bad people with malign intent, exposure of whom would change the system. Rather it's the hierarchical and exploitative structure of society which cannot be shaken by 'the truth' but only by collective struggles.

You're right to a very small extent - members of the ruling class do get together, at Bilderberg, at the WEF, at all manner of formal and informal events. They do discuss and subsequently enact various policies and so on. But so what?

When you say:

I think this shows where you're missing the point. It's not the ruling class I want to get rid of, it's capitalism.

Say the Rothschild family were wiped out of existence right now. Even buying the conspiracy theories about them what fundamental difference would this make? Would it effect capitalism in any form other than surface phenomena?

Its a bit like how you assassinate a monarch, and then feudalism collapses, yeah?