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Criminal activity in an Anarchist organization?

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HorrorHiro's picture
HorrorHiro
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Dec 11 2011 18:07
Criminal activity in an Anarchist organization?

As some of you may or may not remember I posted a thread on how I wish to start an Anarchist organization, I know I didn't go into details but so far since then a couple of my friends that I told decided to "join" whatever you would call this now. I think we classify as a gang considering its just me and a few friends right now which leads to the topic/point of this post. Do you think that there is anything inherently "wrong" with things like gangs (youth gangs, street gangs, criminal and or outlaw gangs etc.) And can a group(s) such as this be instilled with Anarchist values and such?

Would it be necessarily "wrong" if whatever I/we decide to turn this into gets involved in "criminal" activity such as the trafficking of arms and drugs? And if we did could we build and maintain this organization on Anarchist views, beliefs, and values?

I have discussed this with my friends who want to be apart of this and we mutually agreed that we wouldn't have a problem with the criminal activity as long as we stay away from forced prostitution, human trafficking, scamming, things involving coercion etc. Very few groups and organizations that get involved in criminal activity keep or hold up to whatever morale code and or rules that they set in place prior to said activity. The Yakuza are 1 of the few ongoing and successful criminal organizations that uphold and honor the morals and rules that they have set in place.

And I'm not even sure what I want this to be yet, but we have all agreed that we don't just wan it to be an illegalist type organization. Thoughts? Opinion? Advice?

And yes I know how foolish most of this sounds but believe me when I say everything is being taken into consideration.

tastybrain
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Dec 11 2011 18:15

If you were going to take illegal action posting on the internet about it probably isn't the best idea.

And yes, there is something wrong with gangs even if they avoid prostitution and human trafficking. Guns you traffic are going to be used to coerce and murder people, not to overthrow capitalism. Smuggling drugs is taking part in a vicious trade that often involves forced labor at the point of production and destroys local communities. The CIA actively facilitated the entrance of crack cocaine into the US in order to destroy the social movements of the 60s and 70s that were taking root in the ghetto. By smuggling drugs you would be continuing this work for them. Gangs are vicious, ruthlessly capitalist institutions.

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Malva
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Dec 11 2011 18:31
Quote:
The CIA actively facilitated the entrance of crack cocaine into the US in order to destroy the social movements of the 60s and 70s that were taking root in the ghetto.

I heard this as a joke in an episode of American Dad. Is it true? I'm genuinely interested reading about it if you have any sources.

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Dec 11 2011 18:37
tastybrain wrote:
If you were going to take illegal action posting on the internet about it probably isn't the best idea.

And yes, there is something wrong with gangs even if they avoid prostitution and human trafficking. Guns you traffic are going to be used to coerce and murder people, not to overthrow capitalism. Smuggling drugs is taking part in a vicious trade that often involves forced labor at the point of production and destroys local communities. The CIA actively facilitated the entrance of crack cocaine into the US in order to destroy the social movements of the 60s and 70s that were taking root in the ghetto. By smuggling drugs you would be continuing this work for them. Gangs are vicious, ruthlessly capitalist institutions.

Ah yes the same cocaine that was used to try and destroy the black community...thank you for reminding about that I feel ashamed I almost forgot about conspiracy theories such as that along with idolization of Malcolm X (and no I'm not being sarcastic, sometimes it's hard to tell with me.) And even though I don't completely agree with your statement about gangs being capitalist institutions you are right, most gangs, cartels, and such are capitalist institutions.

And you are right about the trafficking of arms and drugs but what about us buying trafficked weapons? We've discussed this as well and we agree that we would only use them for self-defense and or retaliation against other groups and scenarios of that nature (and if it does happen in our life times or our successors, to fight a revolution!) And yes I probably should have considered that big brother is probably watching me...because big brother is always watching...always.

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Dec 11 2011 18:34
Malva wrote:
Quote:
The CIA actively facilitated the entrance of crack cocaine into the US in order to destroy the social movements of the 60s and 70s that were taking root in the ghetto.

I heard this as a joke in an episode of American Dad. Is it true? I'm genuinely interested reading about it if you have any sources.

Many people (including me) believe that one of the best known cases of this was during the black rights movement in America in order to destroy the black community.

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Dec 11 2011 19:15
HorrorHiro wrote:
Many people (including me) believe that one of the best known cases of this was during the black rights movement in America in order to destroy the black community.

Do you have anything to back that up, or are we supposed to just accept your say-so, as usual?

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Dec 11 2011 19:17
Tojiah wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Many people (including me) believe that one of the best known cases of this was during the black rights movement in America in order to destroy the black community.

Do you have anything to back that up, or are we supposed to just accept your say-so, as usual?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US

Happy?

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Dec 11 2011 19:24

Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

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Dec 11 2011 19:26
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

I never asked if it was "cool" I'm asking these questions from a moral stand point.

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Dec 11 2011 19:27
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

arms trafficking more to the point imho! Nice way to get a SWAT team showing up I would have thought.

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Dec 11 2011 19:28
HorrorHiro wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Many people (including me) believe that one of the best known cases of this was during the black rights movement in America in order to destroy the black community.

Do you have anything to back that up, or are we supposed to just accept your say-so, as usual?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US

Happy?

No, because this refers to a case in the 1980's and the civil rights movement had its peak in the 1960's. This also doesn't refer to anything you are arguing. When you claim something or make an argument you need to back it up, not refer to your beliefs. This isn't a religious forum.

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Dec 11 2011 19:31

Illegalism is some of the stupidest crap so-called anarchists can get up to... There are examples from history when it made sense, but today it's a sure trip to jail. I would never even consider it. Collect dues ffs.

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Dec 11 2011 19:32
Tojiah wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Tojiah wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Many people (including me) believe that one of the best known cases of this was during the black rights movement in America in order to destroy the black community.

Do you have anything to back that up, or are we supposed to just accept your say-so, as usual?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_and_Contras_cocaine_trafficking_in_the_US

Happy?

No, because this refers to a case in the 1980's and the civil rights movement had its peak in the 1960's. This also doesn't refer to anything you are arguing. When you claim something or make an argument you need to back it up, not refer to your beliefs. This isn't a religious forum.

Seriously? It's a conspiracy theory for fucks sake! Would you like me to cite Huey P. Newton or something?

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Dec 11 2011 19:35
Khawaga wrote:
Illegalism is some of the stupidest crap so-called anarchists can get up to... There are examples from history when it made sense, but today it's a sure trip to jail. I would never even consider it. Collect dues ffs.

Why exactly do you think illegalism today shouldn't even be considered yet you apporve of illegalism of the past?

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Dec 11 2011 19:45
Pikel wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

arms trafficking more to the point imho! Nice way to get a SWAT team showing up I would have thought.

Well remember there is a (failed from the start) war on drugs happening right now. If anything the trafficking of arms in the US has become easier. Just look at Mexico (which is a primary target in this "war" do to the drug cartels and such) the armed conflict down there between the rival gangs and cartels is being fought mostly with guns that are smuggled out of the US.

And before a certain someone calls me on my BS...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Mexican_cartels

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Dec 11 2011 19:55
HorrorHiro wrote:
Pikel wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

arms trafficking more to the point imho! Nice way to get a SWAT team showing up I would have thought.

Well remember there is a (failed from the start) war on drugs happening right now. If anything the trafficking of arms in the US has become easier. Just look at Mexico (which is a primary target in this "war" do to the drug cartels and such) the armed conflict down there between the rival gangs and cartels is being fought mostly with guns that are smuggled out of the US.

And before a certain someone calls me on my BS...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Mexican_cartels

I doubt anyone would question that armed conflict exists, that it's sometimes connected with drugs, and that people can make money from it. That much should be obvious.

What it has to do with anarchism is rather beyond me, though.

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Dec 11 2011 20:03
jonthom wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Pikel wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

arms trafficking more to the point imho! Nice way to get a SWAT team showing up I would have thought.

Well remember there is a (failed from the start) war on drugs happening right now. If anything the trafficking of arms in the US has become easier. Just look at Mexico (which is a primary target in this "war" do to the drug cartels and such) the armed conflict down there between the rival gangs and cartels is being fought mostly with guns that are smuggled out of the US.

And before a certain someone calls me on my BS...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Mexican_cartels

I doubt anyone would question that armed conflict exists, that it's sometimes connected with drugs, and that people can make money from it. That much should be obvious.

What it has to do with anarchism is rather beyond me, though.

It doesn't, and I'd hope that this organization wouldn't degrade into savages such as those. I was just making a point that the illegal trafficking of drugs and arms are connected but drug trafficking is far more focused on compared to arms trafficking.

tastybrain
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Dec 11 2011 20:02

double post

tastybrain
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Dec 11 2011 20:01

CIA and other government agencies' complicity in drug trafficking is not a "conspiracy theory". It's been documented by mainstream news organizations in several instances and plenty of cops, government agents, and criminals will attest to it. It usually has to do with gathering money for some corrupt organization in Latin America while, I would say, serving domestic political needs by flooding working class areas with drugs. The New York Times reported on a case where the CIA overruled the DEA and allowed one ton of cocaine to be smuggled into the US (in 1990). The Washington Times reported on a recent deal where the CIA and other agencies sent guns to the Sinaloa cartel to provide a counterbalance to the Zetas. This obviously amounts to complicity in drug dealing.

The contras were deeply involved in cocaine smuggling, even the Reagan administration admitted the connection. We backed them up with funding, weapons, military and intelligence assistance...of course we would also help them get their product into the US.

On the domestic end, spatial deconstruction was government policy. Much of the Black Panthers movement, which was infiltrated thoroughly by the FBI, was demobilized by crack addiction and subsequent arrest, no doubt facilitated by the snitches. Combine that with the different sentencing laws for crack versus powder cocaine, the burgeoning prison industrial complex, the massive incarceration of black and hispanic working class youth, and the incredible amount of funding for police departments and government agenceis the drug war justifies...is it all simply a coincidence? I am not proposing everything is directed by a single cabal, but it seems logical that U.S. state complicity with drug trafficking, useful for foreign policy in that it helps them fund and support groups useful to them, is also useful domestically, justifying increasing policing and repression in society.

tastybrain
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Dec 11 2011 20:07

All this is fairly irrelevant because what you are proposing is

A) Very immoral. Besides the complicity with the state, drug and gun trafficking is capitalism of the worst variety. You will be getting people hooked and beating the shit out of them when they can't pay you (or being complicit in same), allowing random murders to happen, etc

B) going to get you locked up or killed, or at best robbed, cause I doubt you and your friends are a bunch of real gangstas who could pull that type of shit off

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Dec 11 2011 20:12

Thank you tastybrain for re-educating me on a topic(s) that I had all but forgotten about.

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Dec 11 2011 20:13
Quote:
Why exactly do you think illegalism today shouldn't even be considered yet you apporve of illegalism of the past?

Do I have to? Different times, different strokes. In the past the illegal actions didn't happen in a vacumm. Like knocking off banks to get guns for revolutionaries. And in times that were revolutionary. What you're discussing is relying on fucking dealing to stay float as an organization. Two completely different things.

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Dec 11 2011 20:16
tastybrain wrote:
All this is fairly irrelevant because what you are proposing is

A) Very immoral. Besides the complicity with the state, drug and gun trafficking is capitalism of the worst variety. You will be getting people hooked and beating the shit out of them when they can't pay you (or being complicit in same), allowing random murders to happen, etc

B) going to get you locked up or killed, or at best robbed, cause I doubt you and your friends are a bunch of real gangstas who could pull that type of shit off

A couldn't be truer and B is debatable. But what about what you posted earlier in response to the arms trafficking? You never responded to my response.

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Dec 11 2011 20:19

The problem with a gang that is involved in crime is that it normally disconnects the group from its community as well as actively harming it.
Drug trafficking is a shit thing to do, especially on a large scale and the actions required to sustain it make the group more and more anti-working class. The gang ends up integrated into the system (in practical terms) in order to maintain itself.
It is fairly well documented that the CIA infiltrated the black panthers (and other movements) and also armed other gangs to compete with the Black Panthers.
The trafficking of cocaine was done to raise funds for CIA black ops inclusing funding the contras.

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Dec 11 2011 20:22
HorrorHiro wrote:
Seriously? It's a conspiracy theory for fucks sake! Would you like me to cite Huey P. Newton or something?

No, do something like tastybrain did: back it up. Make a solid argument. Cite sources.

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Dec 11 2011 20:25

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Dec 11 2011 20:26
Khawaga wrote:
Quote:
Why exactly do you think illegalism today shouldn't even be considered yet you apporve of illegalism of the past?

Do I have to? Different times, different strokes. In the past the illegal actions didn't happen in a vacumm. Like knocking off banks to get guns for revolutionaries. And in times that were revolutionary. What you're discussing is relying on fucking dealing to stay float as an organization. Two completely different things.

True and yes this is equally if not stupider than that last question, but what about trying to bring that revolutionary mindset back? I mean many of these gangs and the like now were started by people who most would consider revolutionaries. A great example would be Stanley Tookie Williams III, the co-founder of the Crips street gang. http://www.biography.com/people/stanley-tookie-williams-476676

He wanted social change and revolution, but as his group grew in numbers they became more and more obsessed with making money and defending themselves against rival groups that were spawning in their area. Which leads to the crips as we know them now.

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Dec 11 2011 20:34
HorrorHiro wrote:
jonthom wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Pikel wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

arms trafficking more to the point imho! Nice way to get a SWAT team showing up I would have thought.

Well remember there is a (failed from the start) war on drugs happening right now. If anything the trafficking of arms in the US has become easier. Just look at Mexico (which is a primary target in this "war" do to the drug cartels and such) the armed conflict down there between the rival gangs and cartels is being fought mostly with guns that are smuggled out of the US.

And before a certain someone calls me on my BS...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Mexican_cartels

I doubt anyone would question that armed conflict exists, that it's sometimes connected with drugs, and that people can make money from it. That much should be obvious.

What it has to do with anarchism is rather beyond me, though.

It doesn't, and I'd hope that this organization wouldn't degrade into savages such as those. I was just making a point that the illegal trafficking of drugs and arms are connected but drug trafficking is far more focused on compared to arms trafficking.

I'm not questioning the link between the drugs and arms trades, only questioning the link between either of those things and anarchism.

I mean, if you want to set up a (black market) small business and don't see any problem with being an anti-capitalist while acting as a capitalist, that's up to you I guess. But why you'd want to link your enterprise with anarchism is entirely beyond me - particularly since by doing so you'd likely open up any other anarchists who had the misfortune to have contact with you to all sorts of repression.

Any arms you sell are likely to be used by working class people against other working class people; any drugs you sell (particularly when dealing with "hard", more addictive stuff) is likely to harm working class communities first. Why on earth would you want to do this, let alone link it to anarchist politics?

FWIW, there is some interesting stuff to be read about certain groups - the Young Lords, for example - but they generally started as gangs (or groups in areas with a strong gang culture) and took on a political aspect, rather than being activists who decided drug dealing would be a great way of bring about teh anarchies.

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Dec 11 2011 20:32
Melancholy of Resistance wrote:

Did you make that yourself?

tastybrain
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Dec 11 2011 20:32

Ok well your original post referenced you actually trafficking guns. In terms of this:

Quote:
And you are right about the trafficking of arms and drugs but what about us buying trafficked weapons? We've discussed this as well and we agree that we would only use them for self-defense and or retaliation against other groups and scenarios of that nature (and if it does happen in our life times or our successors, to fight a revolution!) And yes I probably should have considered that big brother is probably watching me...because big brother is always watching...always.

In terms of just "buying trafficked weapons" (I personally would never do such a thing), it might not be inherently immoral in and of itself, but if you're gonna do it its just dumb to talk about it on the internet. You might want to think about going a similar route to the Lehr und Wehr Verein (Chicago workers' milita). Do everything legally and above board, get permits and all that jazz. You can still have rifles legally if you live in the US.

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Dec 11 2011 20:40
jonthom wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
jonthom wrote:
HorrorHiro wrote:
Pikel wrote:
Juan Conatz wrote:
Wait? Are you 12 years old? What the hell is wrong with you? You're seriously asking on the internet if it's cool if you and your buds can start an anarchist group based on drug trafficking?

arms trafficking more to the point imho! Nice way to get a SWAT team showing up I would have thought.

Well remember there is a (failed from the start) war on drugs happening right now. If anything the trafficking of arms in the US has become easier. Just look at Mexico (which is a primary target in this "war" do to the drug cartels and such) the armed conflict down there between the rival gangs and cartels is being fought mostly with guns that are smuggled out of the US.

And before a certain someone calls me on my BS...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Drug_War#Mexican_cartels

I doubt anyone would question that armed conflict exists, that it's sometimes connected with drugs, and that people can make money from it. That much should be obvious.

What it has to do with anarchism is rather beyond me, though.

It doesn't, and I'd hope that this organization wouldn't degrade into savages such as those. I was just making a point that the illegal trafficking of drugs and arms are connected but drug trafficking is far more focused on compared to arms trafficking.

I'm not questioning the link between the drugs and arms trades, only questioning the link between either of those things and anarchism.

I mean, if you want to set up a (black market) small business and don't see any problem with being an anti-capitalist while acting as a capitalist, that's up to you I guess. But why you'd want to link your enterprise with anarchism is entirely beyond me - particularly since by doing so you'd likely open up any other anarchists who had the misfortune to have contact with you to all sorts of repression.

Any arms you sell are likely to be used by working class people against other working class people; any drugs you sell (particularly when dealing with "hard", more addictive stuff) is likely to harm working class communities first. Why on earth would you want to do this, let alone link it to anarchist politics?

FWIW, there is some interesting stuff to be read about the way certain groups - the Young Lords, for example - but they generally started as gangs (or groups in areas with a strong gang culture) and took on a political aspect, rather than being activists who decided drug dealing would be a great way of bring about teh anarchies.

I'm not making a relation from trafficking to Anarchism. I'v wanted to make an Anarchist organization since I 1st learned of such organizations still existed. It is only recently that the topic of criminal activity has come up with my thinking of ways to start and maintain this organization.

But since we're on this topic anyway how exactly does any outside the system type organization get funding?

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