WSM?

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wheresmyshoes's picture
wheresmyshoes
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Apr 4 2008 11:50
WSM?

I don't know much about this group; enlighten me.

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georgestapleton
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Apr 4 2008 11:58

We're amazing and our acronym is an anagram of your acronym. Ergo, you should love us.

THE SHIT

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Apr 4 2008 14:20
georgestapleton wrote:
We're amazing and our acronym is an anagram of your acronym. Ergo, you should love us.

THE SHIT

Haha:)

guydebordisdead wrote:
Formed in 1984 by a guy with a beard we are now able to boast that we are the largest platformist group in Ireland. We publish a free newspaper called Workers Solidarity (10,000 copies bi-monthly) and a magazine called Red and Black Revolution (bi-annual). We are quite controversial in the anarchist movement because we believe in being organised and having collectively agreed positions which we should fight for in struggles, essentially making anarchism a meaningful force when some would rather it remained on the margins of the left as an opposition movement.

Plus our acronym is an ambigram...

What was the controversial stuff about you guys supporting some dude in the Irish paliment or something?
Please don't think I'm trying to start a arguement, I'm just interested.

rata
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Apr 4 2008 14:21
guydebordisdead wrote:
We are quite controversial in the anarchist movement because we believe in being organised and having collectively agreed positions which we should fight for in struggles, essentially making anarchism a meaningful force when some would
rather it remained on the margins of the left as an opposition movement.

Really? I always thought that you guys are controversial in the anarchist movement because you don't have problems with "anarchists" taking hierarhical positions in unions, supporting nationalism and similar. In fact, the anarchist movement I know is not finding the issue of being organized and collectively agreeing on certain positions controversial, quite the opposite, the anarchist movement I know finds those to be the things which go without saying... beardiest

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Apr 4 2008 14:51
guydebordisdead wrote:
wheresmyshoes wrote:
What was the controversial stuff about you guys supporting some dude in the Irish paliment or something?
Please don't think I'm trying to start a arguement, I'm just interested.

We supported a candidate in a union election many years ago. It has been discussed elsewhere but essentially we see a need for anarchists to go where the workers are rather than form our own tiny trade unions or reject them completely, as such we also think workers should take control of the unions away from bureaucrats.

But isn't that taking away from the whole point of a non-hierarchical group?

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Apr 4 2008 15:08

Well I mean supporting somebody that would only enforce further hierarchy, whether they're good dudes or not isn't really anarchism.

David UK
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Apr 4 2008 15:15

revol68, the discussion has been fairly civil can we keep it that way? You have points of contention with the WSM, fine, I do aswell (although I disagree with a lot of what you have said) but that's best discussed between us nto used for pathetic insults on an itnernet forum.

Firstly, with unions. I agree that the mainstream unions are well beyond repair. And that no union can be vehicle of revolution. But I do believe that the union can provide a decent platform for our politics, and consiquently do not oppose entryism on principal.

I think what wheresmyshoes is saying is fine, in principal. In principal we all oppose hierachy, and struggle for the abolition of it. But In practice, getting a union official ellected could speed up the realisation of that end (by providing a platform for our politics). I don't mind practical objections to this idea (I hold some myself). But ones rooted in dogma help no one.

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Apr 4 2008 15:26

Yes we should join unions where it makes sense and yes we should fight for rank n file blah blah blah - but i'd be very wary of supporting anyone in the internal elections of the union hierarchy tho. In fact i'm pretty damn sure i'd reject it outright. In england i would be very much against it. These are the people who yearin and out keep the TUC paying and backing the Labour Party and supporting all sorts of bullshit leftist dead ends.

The transitional demand stuff like nationalising irish oil or whatnot strikes me as pretty odd, but i wouldn't day i rejected it out of hand: i call for all sorts of state provision, extending that to natural resources should be considered. I personally believe you are as likely to win in a overburdened social democracy as you are in a starved free market hell hole.

To the nationalism: i have seen no evidence that the WSM are nationalist. Troops out of ireland is not inherently nationalist. Again, its a trickier one than the standard 'no war but the class war, no we aren't going to actually say anything of any use' sloganeering, but from my conversations with irish people, troops out of ireland would be a world of good.

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Apr 4 2008 15:31
David UK wrote:
revol68, the discussion has been fairly civil can we keep it that way? You have points of contention with the WSM, fine, I do aswell (although I disagree with a lot of what you have said) but that's best discussed between us nto used for pathetic insults on an itnernet forum.

dude, really don't bother with this one. Yep its worth asking for a bit of decorum from everyone else on this site when things get heated, but not revol.

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Apr 4 2008 15:42

If only there was some other anarchist bulletin boards where this kind of thing doesn't happen.

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wheresmyshoes
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Apr 4 2008 15:58

Anyway, thanks for answering a few questions.

rata
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Apr 4 2008 16:15
guydebordisdead wrote:
Anarchist Blac Cat is where you will find most platformists now.

Cat, like Galloway?

Bobby
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Apr 4 2008 16:24

revol, are you still a member of Organise!?

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Apr 4 2008 19:12
Bobby wrote:
revol, are you still a member of Organise!?

dude you got the question and exclamation mark the wrong way round,let me do it for you

tacks wrote:
revol, are you still a member of Organise?!

thats the fella.

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Apr 5 2008 08:16
revol68 wrote:
The WSM are just an anarcho SWP ffs, they'll even let any fuckwitted eejit join if they're willing to be their paper boy.

I agreed wit the spirit of your earlier criticisms but this is just stupid, firstly the WSM clearly aren't anything like the SWP and secondly by alluding to that your pretty much providing them with a charicature of hippy' anarchist angst.

Quote:
We are quite controversial in the anarchist movement because we believe in being organised and having collectively agreed positions which we should fight for in struggles, essentially making anarchism a meaningful force when some would rather it remained on the margins of the left as an opposition movement.

In all fairness was there any need to say this. The first part of your description of the WSM would have bee fine and would have produced no arguement, why do you people have such a need to blow your own trumpet In such a sectarian fashion constantly.

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oisleep
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Apr 5 2008 08:30

self validation

Deezer
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Apr 5 2008 19:34
Tacks wrote:
Bobby wrote:
revol, are you still a member of Organise!?

dude you got the question and exclamation mark the wrong way round,let me do it for you

tacks wrote:
revol, are you still a member of Organise?!

thats the fella.

Tacks you are a twat. Organised your wee 'platformist' split from the AF yet?

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Apr 6 2008 09:52
Quote:
reform the union candidates - check
nationalisation - check

Oh for crying out loud how much capital are you going to try and make out of the one solitary time they have supported a full timer in a newsletter, jesus. Its not like its common organisational practice. Sure their approach to workplace activity feels a little muddled but its not like any oher anarchist group can really get on a high horse about that, no-ones exactly breaking boundaries right now are they. Jesus they put that in their newsletter 4 years ago or something. To make such a big deal out of it now just makes it look to the rest of us like you have developed an unhealthy obsession with the sectarian trivia of the anarchist movement.

For what its worth i agree with some of your criticisms. But at the end of the day what point are you trying to make here anyway? How is screeching hysterically about them being ''anarcho-trots'' going to do you any good? Do you even want it to do any good or are yoiu just here to score points?

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Apr 6 2008 10:16
Boulcolonialboy wrote:
Tacks you are a twat.

Who said anarchosyndicalists didn't have collectively agreed positions?

rata
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Apr 6 2008 13:49

We can not look at WSM as an isolated phenomenon, especially when it's public that they and other "trot-platformist" organizations around the world are actively working on creation of their own International. In that sense it would be quite interesting to look at their French counterpart - Alternative libertaire. Apart from criminal political positions that they have on various issues and grose behavior in the syndicalist movement, about which even Vignoles activists can testify, you can, for ex, find an uncritical link to the Ligue communiste révolutionnaire (LCR) on their website. As we all know LCR is the largest French trot party, leading party in USFI (or, as they like to call themselves 4th international) - the main trot international, which is, for a long time now, debating and cooperating with SWP. French IST (SWP International) Section joined, in an organized fashion, LCR in 2004.

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Apr 6 2008 15:13
rata wrote:
you can, for ex, find an uncritical link to the Ligue communiste révolutionnaire (LCR) on their website. As we all know LCR is the largest French trot party,

ahaha their website links to a website of a group with politics whose politics they disagree with! oh no! the workers seeking to join libertarian organizations will accidentally click on that link and end up joining a leninist one instead because they are too stupid to critically navigate the internet!

rata
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Apr 6 2008 15:36
MJ wrote:
ahaha their website links to a website of a group with politics whose politics they disagree with! oh no! the workers seeking to join libertarian organizations will accidentally click on that link and end up joining a leninist one instead because they are too stupid to critically navigate the internet!

I don't know how does it function with you guys, but from where I'm coming from you don't provide links to your enemies without appropriate comment.

Escarabajo
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Apr 6 2008 15:37

What the fuck is going on with all the silly little name-calling and playground politics? I've been using Libcom as a resource for a good while now and its ridculously juvenile guys, not to mention extremely offputting.
Its like anyone with a bit of mouth (over the internet) and a dictionary can totally derail anything and everything. So, here's my position as a new member and not an old hand at this forum etiquette stuff: I don't give a shit if you think its cool, funny or whatever. Or even if its just your sad excuse for a personality but I think all that crap's a fuckin bad joke and the people responsible should be fuckin culled. Disagree all you want with whatever position but stop acting like little kids. Honestly its fuckin pathetic.
Grow up for fuck's sake.

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Apr 6 2008 17:15
revol68 wrote:
yeah but their trot lite positons are no accident not to mention the fact they claim to stand in a platformist tradition that is suppoused to be the leadership of ideas against such creeping reformism. roll eyes

Again what are you hoping to achieve by ranting about this on libcom?

Quote:
if you actually get into a discussion with someone like Gurrier or Andrew Flood they will back supporting Des Derwin, Gurrier even thinks the WSM should run it's own candidates for union leadership positions if it ever became viable.

Oh come off it I'll beleive that when i see it, and even if gurrier does think that its pretty much irrelevant; the WSM as a whole quite clearly don't beleive in running ''WSM candidates'' as full time paid union officials and paid union leaders. There are enough real criticisms to be made about the WSMs, and everyone elses for that matter, approaches to workplace struggle without resorting to this sort of exaggerated nonsense.

rata
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Apr 6 2008 17:27
guydebordisdead wrote:
Bahahhaah - all of your damning evidence is a link on a website? Amazing.

Comrade there is much more "damning evidence", I'm just not into digging it out now, due to other things that I need to do. This is just one of the things that is out there on the first glance.

You are talking about link from the official site of your sister organization to the trot party. Link on the official site of your sister organization that is describing that social-democratic party as "Parti anticapitaliste et révolutionnaire". That means that AL is seing LCR as anti-capitalist and revolutionary organization. Do you?

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Apr 6 2008 20:47

OMG Rata, ASI links to the Bureau of Public Secrets?!?! Didn't you know that one situationist in Berkeley will harm the workers movement more than all of the fourth internationals put together?!

rata
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Apr 6 2008 21:16
guydebordisdead wrote:
At a quick glance your own website links to punk bands, a tattoo studio and a number of situationist/surrealist websites. If I were pettier I am sure I could find worse too.

Yes we do. All under "Revolutionary art" segment of our Links page. You can find links to yellow unions too, the links are there for informative reasons, in the "Bourgeois (Yellow) unions" segment of the Links page. We don't call them revolutionary or anti-capitalist.

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Apr 6 2008 22:32

embarrassed

Christ I wish I wasn't an anarchist this shit is embarassing. One of the organisations in France that we have links with (we also have links with the CGA, the OCL and we used to swap stuff with No Pasaran and the OSL in francophone france but haven't seen it for a while so don't know what the story there is) has a link to a trot group on the links section of their website that links to groups "whose miltants [they] encounter in social struggles" (dont nous côtoyons les militant-e-s dans les luttes sociales) and this proves that we are trots. FFS, you couldn't make this shit up.

rata
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Apr 6 2008 22:49

Organization with whom WSM is working on creation of platformist international, not just any organization with whom you guys have contact, on it's own official web site has a link to social democratic political party, largest trot party in the largest trot international, and it's describing that party as "anti-capitalist" and "revolutionary". As I said, there are many details of AL's criminal political behavior, but really there is no need to pull those things up - this thing is there smiling at you. I already heard from GDID that "it's only link". I really don't understand what does that mean? Could you place link to SWP on WSM website, proclaim SWP to be revolutionary and anti-capitalist organization, and think nobody would comment on that?

Do you think that official websites of the organization are less representative of the organization than, let's say, organization's paper? Do you understand the political implications of linking some organization from the organization's official web site and describing it in such manner? I thought you guys are the ones which are being controversial for being organized. Now it seams you don't really think organization should control, or be responsible for things on it's own official website. Really strange.

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Apr 6 2008 23:35
Quote:
Organization with whom WSM is working on creation of platformist international

Where did you get this idea from? Our position on building an anarchist international is here Our main international commitments today are 1. direct relations with other groups and contacts and 2. to anarkismo.net. And yes we hope that our work on these things will aid in the creation of an anarchist communist international but we aren't about to launch an international and are very far from doing so with or without AL. So honest question: where did you get this idea from?

rata
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Apr 6 2008 23:53
georgestapleton wrote:
So honest question: where did you get this idea from?

Comrades from your organization told me that. Of course, there is a possibility they were making it up.