Indymedia refugees

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Mayler
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Jan 8 2004 15:57
Indymedia refugees

I posted a thing on the bristol.indymedia site suggesting that people use these boards for discussion.

Now i'm here all on me lonesome and wondering where all the usual suspects are? roll eyes

brizzul
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Jan 10 2004 20:47

Urgh, you're not going to bring that flame nightmare here are you?

Still at least they can be kicked off on this forum.

random
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Mar 10 2004 20:25

gah, i just didnt find this thread before... here now though, i'll check back soon enough and see whats up.

MH
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Mar 11 2004 23:19

I know there's a few BIMC regulars who check these forums, but so far it's clear that folks still prefer the BIMC newswire.

I kicked off the thread about an anarcho network in Bristol hoping it's provoke a response.....all 1 of them. If I'd put it on the BIMC newswire it'd have probably provoked many more (see recent newswire thread on 'activism').

Any solutions to this problem?......not sure, beyond repeating the existence of enrager again n again and slowly it'll gain credibility. And maybe BIMC will change the way it works forcing people elsewhere....? What I do note is that folks only have so much time to check different websites/forums, there are a few who seem to be on every available option, no doubt suffering severe doses of armchair activism!

Anyone wanna take this further?

ClassWar
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Mar 12 2004 09:06
MH wrote:
Any solutions to this problem?......not sure, beyond repeating the existence of enrager again n again and slowly it'll gain credibility. And maybe BIMC will change the way it works forcing people elsewhere....? Anyone wanna take this further?

Perhaps you should just tell all the Bristol IMC people that Tony Gosling ain't on enrager .......... yet!

random
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Mar 12 2004 11:15

while im sure you meant to be amusing, i think the personal attacks on tony gosling are pathetic, and reveal a number of little dictators. its really put me off bimc, although i check back for news. i dont like the way a small number of people decide what is 'locally relevant' and then gang up on anyone who disagrees with their small minded views.

not my idea of intelligent adult behaviour.

MH, keep repeating i guess, and keep inviting others too. theres something to be said for armchair activism - i get a lot of research done, i get contact with more people easier than when i put up posters, i put together zines which i can put out locally for bugger all... obviously you have to keep it up off the pc, but the access to people, debate and information is great.

i reckon a lot of people have abandoned bimc in the past year or so, there are a lot of names you never see again (or more than once or twice).

Jacques Roux's picture
Jacques Roux
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Mar 12 2004 11:22
MH wrote:
What I do note is that folks only have so much time to check different websites/forums, there are a few who seem to be on every available option, no doubt suffering severe doses of armchair activism!

Anyone wanna take this further?

I guess that is a problem. I suppose the ratio of usefull info / shit info that people will get on BIMC is greater than here, or its just out of habit.

Apart from just shotuing about enrager.net more other ways of getting people to use the forum more may be to improve information on the listings pages (incase of bristol: http://www.enrager.net/britain/southwest/index.htm), if anyone has info which we could put on there pls contact us.

ClassWar
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Mar 12 2004 13:42
random wrote:
while im sure you meant to be amusing, i think the personal attacks on tony gosling are pathetic, and reveal a number of little dictators. its really put me off bimc, although i check back for news. i dont like the way a small number of people decide what is 'locally relevant' and then gang up on anyone who disagrees with their small minded views.

not my idea of intelligent adult behaviour.

quote]

Many people in the Anarchist movement have a serious problem with Tony Gosling. People in Bristol (and elsewhere) can speak for themselves on this issue.

In the case of Class War we object strongly to him going round saying we are propped up by the security services, without having the decency to even put his "evidence" to us. When asked to do so by Notes From the Borderland magazine, he jibbered incoherently.

You may think he has the right to say what he wants about Class War. But we have every right to ask him to back that up with evidence. This he has failed to do.

Equally seriously on Indymedia Tony Gosling posted a thread entitled "The Class War/MI5 files by Class War"

Tony Gosling is not a member of Class War, never has been a member and is not supporter of our group. To impersonate us on Indymedia is not only bang out of order, but says a lot about his judgement and his personality.

Rather than evidence of "little dictators" Indymedia showed a great degree of tolerance towards him in not giving him his marching orders at the time.

random
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Mar 12 2004 14:34

thats the problem though isnt it. when an issue with a person or their behaviour is raised it needs to be dealt with then and there. bringing it up at some other future point is unhealthy and ridiculous. when my daughter does something she shouldnt, i tell her at the time, to 'punish' someone much later doesnt do any good whatsoever. there arte also ways of ealing with these sorts of problems, and ganging up to push someone out without discussing or trying to solve the problem any other way, is not what i'd consider good practice.

besides which, bimc and indymedia are not anarchist projects, and are supposed to be inclusive projects for everyone and not just anarchists. so even if someone does piss you off, or piss off any group come to that, that doesnt mean they should be alienated from a project that apparently is for 'everyone'.

ClassWar
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Mar 12 2004 15:50
random wrote:
thats the problem though isnt it. when an issue with a person or their behaviour is raised it needs to be dealt with then and there. bringing it up at some other future point is unhealthy and

Just to clarify the issue of Gosling describing himself as "Class War" was raised with Indymedia at the time.

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bristle-krs
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Mar 12 2004 16:15
ClassWar wrote:
MH wrote:

Perhaps you should just tell all the Bristol IMC people that Tony Gosling ain't on enrager .......... yet!

ooo, saucy!

tg last spotted buying chips in slix, at 11.30pm a week ago... i don't think he had the bilderburger though grin

<gets coat>

butchersapron
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Joined: 25-07-05
Mar 13 2004 12:09

It's not only Class War who has a problem with Gosling...i wouldn't touch him with a shitty bargepole.

brizzul
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Mar 14 2004 02:24

Wow, I think I can put faces to some of these names now just by working out who hates who. It's amazing how many regulars here probably live within 5 miles of each other.

tree boy
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Joined: 14-03-04
Mar 14 2004 14:25

circle A

another site , another thread and guess the topic!?

angry

MH
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Joined: 11-12-03
Mar 15 2004 00:11

Another thread goes haywire as we go off-topic. Perhaps someone wants to set up a 'why gosling is a problem' thread, and then we can get back to discussing how we can use enrager to the good whilst dealing with twats. And how we can entice people off indymedia to dicuss here?

How about people look at the 'does Bristol need a new anarchist network' type thread, and let's try to make some progress.

Otherwise I'll return to looking at enrager as irregularly as i did before. angry

circle A mh

butchersapron
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Mar 15 2004 11:46

Fair enough points - i had meant to get back on that thread, but it's simply too easy to forget that there are local boards *below* the top ones. I'll try and add some more points there when i get home later.

munkeeunit
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Joined: 10-03-04
Mar 15 2004 14:40

Fuck this for a lark. This is just more flame war. Newcomers won't know what this is all about, and the insiders are thoroughly sick of it. This is going to mediation as I understand it, so what is the point of dragging it out further. Considering that this has become an utterrly useless thread, the orginal poster has the option on Enrager.net to do the decent thing and....

....DELETE IT!

s
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Joined: 15-03-04
Mar 15 2004 16:34
Jacques Roux's picture
Jacques Roux
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Mar 15 2004 16:43

We will lock the thread if the madness continues smile

Why dont you create a new thread with some posting guidlines on what its there for etc. and try and encourage some structured talk and then do some plugging on IMC etc?

s
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Mar 16 2004 16:14
butchersapron
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Mar 16 2004 16:51

And? Is this board now an adjunct of bristol indymedia? Do the bristol indymedia lot get to censor or approve what goes onto this board? And who gave you the right to speak for everyone coming here from bristol indymedia whilst we're at it?

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Jacques Roux
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Mar 16 2004 17:29
s wrote:
this thread needs deleting - ne1 comin here from indy.media will NOT join in with this shit showing.

S - im not sure who you think you are by i reckon BIMC users are clever enough to read more than one thread, anyone reading this thread will realise something has gone wrong somewhere.

munkeeunit
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Mar 16 2004 18:37

Well, if this thread is going to stay up as it is, we should try and give a clearer picture of what's happening. I've cut and pasted the relevant minutes of last nights BIMC meeting.

These minutes are already in the public domain.

Just to clarify too, my own irate post a few posts back was just that, sheer frustration. I should also make clear that I am not a designated BIMC representative, but I do support the decisions of the BIMC meeting.

Here's the minutes.

-------------

Tony & Ian

-------------

"The collective discussed the ongoing issue of Tony and Ian. After much

discussion it was agreed by all that opinion could be divided into 2 views -

a. Those who though that Bristol IMC needed to develop a new process

to deal with accusations leveled against Tony Gosling.

b. Those who though that the consensus decision making at this meeting

was the process and that Tony Gosling had already breached so many guidelines and issues of protocol as force the group to act now.

It was asked if anyone felt that Ian had done anything meriting a similar

debate, none at the meeting expressed any view that Ian had done wrong.

It was decided by all to put it to the vote on these two views:

Vote for a - 3

Vote for b - 6

Abstain - 2.

As a result of the vote it was carried that Tony Gosling has:

-Refused to go through the group in dealing with issues pertaining to

Bristol Indymedia

-Has misrepresented the group

-Had harassed IMC members over email.

As such it was decided that he (Tony G):

-Is not a representative of Bristol Indymedia.

-Will not be given moderation access.

-Will be asked to remove himself from any email lists where he is there

as a representative of Bristol Indymedia.

From the point of view of the group Tony still has the rights that any

person has of being able to sign up to the IMC Email List, post articles

etc.

Furthermore it was decided to develop a process to deal with future incidents and issues such as this in a faster manner without the damaging fallout that this brought to the group."

ENDS.

random
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Mar 16 2004 21:04

And you're okay with that? The matter was dealt with in front of a kangaroo court. Noone was told this topic was going to be discussed at that meeting. In fact, everyone was told that the Tony/Ian topic was NOT going to be discussed at that point. Tony was not even present to defend himself.

As yet, I havent heard any proper charges or evidence against Tony, other than a few people dont like him (so what?). I havent ever met him but thats besides the point - this sort of behaviour is not what I expect from decent people.

The whole thing has put quite a sour taste in my mouth. Im sick of BIMC and its methods, its clique and its censorship. im sick of its rule changes every five seconds, its one rule for one and a different rule for another.

I really hope that the people on enrager dont support decision making and trials of this type. Are our politics no better than our enemies?

random
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Mar 16 2004 21:16

"As a result of the vote it was carried that Tony Gosling has:... "

- Like what? Wheres the evidence? Wheres the defence? Wheres the rules against this? Huh?

- How? When? Where? To Who? Evidence? Defence? Guidelines?

- as for harassing BIMC members over email, ive not seen any evidence of this, just an accusation. I have seen evidence of Ians harassment and abuse of Tony over email, but apparently this isnt an offence.

So, at a secret meeting (because we were told several times that this would not be covered at that particular meeting) without the accused present, no evidence (at least none mentioned) was presented to a group of nameless BIMCers (some of whom may actually seriously dislike Tony, and therefore are not unbiased and should not be part of the judging party), six of which decided after hearing no defense that Tony was guilty of breaching the vague "guidelines and issues of protocol" (which could mean nothing more than 'he wore pink and i find it offensive'), and five others decided that either he wasnt guilty or there was not enough evidence to make a decision. On this majority of one, Tony Gosling was effectively expelled from BIMC. Without him even present.

Who else here supports this decision?

pete
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Joined: 19-03-04
Mar 19 2004 03:24

what suggestions would people make to improve the bristol indymedia website?

is it the content of the site that pisses people off? or the rudeness? or the editorial gudleines? is it cliquey and if so how can that be devolved?

As someone whos been actively involved with this I'd be interested to know. After all its too easy just to slag it all off without offering some solution.

MH
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Mar 23 2004 19:20

Pete & all,

It's intriguing how Bristol's newswire seems to function so much as a debating forum, whilst the national newswire is very more just a newswire, were you rarely get more than a very few comments. To my mind the national one functions more as how a newswire should.

On BIMC over the last few days there have been loads of comments on the validity of various recent actions (critical mass, direct action against war via sabotage, blackwood) as well as a discussion about the direction of bristol STW. Some of the comments have been well thought out and clearly come from a political perspective I agree with (basically anarchist), others come from hand-wringing liberals and likely Sun readers - to my mind some of there posts demean indymedia cos they're so puerile. I don't mind arguing with em but they're a waste of time when it comes to discussing/debating our movement.

What i cannot work out is why so many post/debate on Bristol Indymedia - is it cos there's a total lack of other available on-line forums in the area? The bristol activists egroup, for instance, is supposed to be for 'discussion' as well as announcements, but I've seen virtually nil discussion in the few months I've been on it.

It would be good to encourage more progressive & radical thinkers to come onto enrager to debate and discuss ideas & practice to develop our movement. However, I'd be nervous about leaving Indymedia to some of the liberals and sun readers, not that they actually start many posts on the newswire.

I don't see how though BIMC can change the use of it's newswire without very heavy moderation (time consuming!); actually limiting the no of replies per item; or creating some sort of link that feeds into enrager (not sure if that's practical?). I don't know if you've looked at the enrager newswire guidelines, but they seem quite time consuming. The forums are different as they are often not moderated, so in theory they could have the same problem as BIMC eventually.......although i guess some posters would be put off by the politics of enrager, and ultimately could be booted off.

Does this help? BIMC is a valuable resource, and those providing it should not give up/become despondent, these things take time!

It is also up to the rest of us to encourage more usage of enrager for debate, perhaps by starting more topics, and then notifying them on the BIMC newswire....?

If I have time I may do just that later as I have a couple of good forum topics in my head.

Best wishes wink